Treeburst155

I have had time to cool off and rethink things. This tournament has caused me no undo amount of problems. Also, I'm a firm believer in finishing what I start if at all possible. I will continue to run this tournament unless you guys would rather pick one from among you who isn't so temperamental as I. Until I hear different I am back on the bench. Sorry for all the trouble. You guys have been great. KiwiJoe's 91-9 victory will be recorded.

I have had time to cool off and rethink things. This tournament has caused me no undo amount of problems. Also, I'm a firm believer in finishing what I start if at all possible. I will continue to run this tournament unless you guys would rather pick one from among you who isn't so temperamental as I. Until I hear different I am back on the bench. Sorry for all the trouble. You guys have been great. [ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

OK, I've had time to cool off now. Here's the deal. I can continue to run this tournament as long as there are some new rules which are listed below. 1) Gamey TACTICS will not be tolerated. Who determines what is gamey? I, the right honorable Judge Treeburst155 determine what is gamey. 2) How do you sue a player for gamey play? You describe the problem briefly and you send me movie files with your password. If I agree with you then the offending player will be found guilty and sentenced. 3) The sentence? An automatic 80-20 loss for that game. This will virtually insure that the game engine is not taken advantage of and will protect historical players so they can enjoy their games. I should warn everyone that I am very strict on what I consider gamey, but I will not make rash judgements. I will look hard at as many movie files as necessary from both players before I pass judgement. If you don't think you know a gamey tactic when you see one or order one you will probably learn the hard way. Ignorance of "the law" is no excuse. On the other hand, there should be no hard feelings directed at someone convicted of gamey play. Everyone has different views on what is gamey. If you are the victim of gamey play you will get your 80 point victory. Don't be unkind to the convict. He paid the price with his Major Defeat. FORCE PICKS No partial deletions of units. Learn to use your 2" mortars and rest assured your opponent is having to do likewise. Any other restrictions MUST be negotiated. If you don't negotiate then be prepared to take on a platoon of KTs. Anything that is not specifically negotiated is acceptable. If you forget to talk about Sdkfz's with your opponent, don't be surprised when you face a convoy of the buggers. You may edit experience levels freely as you pay for this. So, buy whatever you want based on your agreement with your opponent, BUT, don't use them in a gamey way. If you buy 4 Wasps don't area fire the whole map. You'll lose 80-20 if your opponent sues you for gameyness. Area denial by FT is a pet peeve of mine. If the rules above are unacceptable there are two courses of action you can take. 1) You can drop out of the tournament now. 2) You can volunteer to run it yourself or find someone who will. I will be more than happy to provide the stats sheet and maps if someone else wants to run this thing. The stats are on a Microsoft Works spreadsheet. I'm open to any questions, and I need to know what you nineteen guys want to do.

Due to my immaturity and inability to cope with this same fault in others this tournament is hereby closed. Treeburst155 outta here forever.

Edited out. [ 08-19-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Due to my immaturity and inability to cope with this same fault in others this tournament is hereby closed. Treeburst155 outta here forever.

Due to my immaturity and inability to cope with this same fault in others this tournament is hereby closed. Treeburst155 outta here forever.

I'll keep a running tally of the votes: SPLIT TOURNEY Treeburst155 DON'T CARE Texas Toast STATUS QUO CapitalistDogInChina What we do here is dependent on the majority view. Your vote has a definite impact. It will help me just to see who votes for what. I would also like to make it clear that there is nothing wrong in my book with highly competitive ladder style play. I like playing like this on occasion too. There is no right or wrong, good or bad here. I just think the mixing of the player types is going to cause BIG problems. So, cast your vote here! Polls are open until 1100 hours on Monday (GMT-6).

Texas Toast makes sense. If the tourney is split, and you end up in the same tourney as people you've already played or are playing there is no reason to throw the games out. We would keep games in such instances.

It took me so long to write my latest that SuperTed slipped in his post in the meantime. This is exactly the type of thing I am worried about. SuperTed won't be the last to drop out if this thing isn't reorganized IMO. If you could see the email I've received concerning this tournament over the last several weeks you would probably think seriously about calling the whole thing off if you were me. It was an interesting idea BUT, that doesn't mean it was a good idea.

Obeservations and Lessons Learned It has become apparent to me that it was a mistake to mix ladder and/or competition oriented players with historical players in the same tournament. I should have realized this from the beginning. I guess I was hoping that pre-game negotiations would iron out any issues. Much to my surprise, I've learned that purely historical players don't want to bother with rules and restrictions because they don't need them. They just aren't interested in exchanging 10 emails to lay down ground rules that they have never found necessary. They will make realistic force purchases, and use realistic tactics. Winning the game is secondary to these two things. To thrust a purely historical player into a situation where he must negotiate many rules and restrictions before he can even start the game is to seriously detract from his CM PBEM fun (the whole reason for the tournament). Unfortunately, in order to have the CM experience he enjoys IN THIS TOURNAMENT, the historical player NEEDS to negotiate extensively with those he has never played before if he hopes to avoid gamey tactics and force picks. Either way, the purely historical player has a good chance of not enjoying his tournament experience. This is not a good thing. A 1,500 point game of CM takes quite a bit of time so it has to be fun. Based on my experiences so far with this tournament I can see many situations coming up in the future that will not be pleasant for me or the players involved. I've come up with a plan to deal with this, and one other problem too. I would like players' opinions on my plan. There are two problems I'd like to solve: Problem 1: Historical and competition players do not mix Problem 2: At the present rate the slowest third of players will need more than a year to complete their games. This is just too long. CMBB will probably be out before this is over, and interest in this tournament will wane. What I would like to do is re-organize EVERYTHING. I propose that we break the tournament up into 2 separate tournaments. Tourney #1 would be for competition oriented players who play to win using whatever tactics and force picks work. Tourney #2 would be for the historical players. Gamey tactics or force purchases would not be tolerated in Tourney #2. If you want to scout with AT teams or burn down the map you want to play in Tourney #1. If you want to be sure you don't see such tactics you want into Tourney #2. If we do this then all players would only have to play nine games rather than nineteen. This would take about six months for the slower players to complete, which is fine. I propose we start the entire thing over (the only good way). Players can sign up for the Competition Tourney or the Historical Tourney. All games completed or in progress are tossed out (finish them if you want but they won't count). My $50 bonus prize will go to the winner of the Competition Tourney instead. The $50 Sportsmanship prize will go to the winner of the Historical Tourney. Berli and MickOZ lose out on their shot at the Bonus Prize but they also lose their bad records. Claymore and WineCape can decide what they want to do with their prize donations. The Competition Tourney would have no rules except those agreed to by players in pre-game negotiations. The Historical Tourney would have one VERY important rule. That being, no gamey tactics or force picks. If you even THINK some tactic or force makeup MIGHT be perceived as gamey by your opponent you shouldn't do it. When in doubt, don't. This is a radical proposal, I know; but if you could see how this tourney is progressing from my point of view I think you would be convinced that some major changes need to be implemented for this thing to be fun for all. I've made some mistakes and I'm learning from them. I can have the whole thing reorganized and running in no more than one week if the majority of you wish to do this. PLEASE let me know what you think of this idea. You have been kind enough to accept your invitation to this tournament and I want it to be fun for you. Your opinion of my proposal carries weight whether you are for it our against it. I want to hear from YOU. Thanks. Sincerely, Treeburst155 (Mike) [ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

There are nine maps out of the nineteen that have poor visibility. Draws are very possible on ALL my maps since no side has ANY significant terrain advantages over the other. If your opponent plays as well as you do, the game could very well result in a draw. My concern is that the maps not be SO draw prone, due to terrain, that superior play is not rewarded or even given a chance to be used. I can make a 12" putt just as well as Tiger Woods, but that doesn't mean I can golf as well as him. Maps with rivers through the middle with only a handful of crossings are too draw prone IMO. It is very risky for either player to attempt crossing the river to pick up "the other guy's VLs" if his opponent is fairly competent. These few maps have been changed substantially. With all 19 maps as they stand right now I feel confident that superior play will be rewarded and draws will result in cases of equal skill only.

Another deadline!! Since this is a PBEM tournament with TCP/IP optional if BOTH players agree, players should not be forced into an 11th hour TCP/IP game. Therefore, all games must be past the setup phase (Turn 1 orders plotted and sent by the first player) by September 15th. This allows six weeks to complete the game, once underway. Any player who has not reached this point in ALL of his unfinished games by September 15 will be dropped from the tournament. If it is not your fault that you can't make the September 15th condition for your games I need to hear from you so you don't get dropped. I may need email showing that you tried diligently to comply with the September 15 deadline. In most cases I think it will be easy to tell who is holding things up; but keep email sent to people who you suspect may cause you to miss the September 15th deadline, just in case.

The_Capt has a very good point. This is a PBEM tournament with TCP/IP optional if BOTH players agree. Players should not be forced into an 11th hour TCP/IP game. Therefore, all games must be past the setup phase (Turn 1 orders plotted and sent by the first player) by September 15th. This allows six weeks to complete the game, once underway. Any player who has not reached this point in ALL of his unfinished games by September 15 will be dropped from the tournament. If it is not your fault that you can't make the September 15th condition for your games I need to hear from you so you don't get dropped. I may need email showing that you tried diligently to comply with the September 15 deadline. In most cases I think it will be easy to tell who is holding things up; but keep email sent to people who you suspect may cause you to miss the September 15th deadline, just in case. Now for the standings after including the Stalin/Sajer draw (48-40): Kiwi Joe..........232...3...77.33 GClement..........124...2...62.00 Sock Monkey.......103...2...51.50 KelsieD...........279...6...46.50 Stalin's Organ....229...5...45.80 aka_tom_w.........178...4...44.50 The_Capt..........129...3...43.00 Sajer.............249...7...35.57

We need to talk about the FINAL Deadline for the completion of this tournament. I'm going to extend the tourney to November 1st. ANY player who has not completed ALL his games by then will be disqualified, ALL his completed games thrown out, and ALL players' scores adjusted accordingly. The whole idea of this tournament is for everybody to play everybody else one time, giving all players an equal number of games (chances to score points), with those games being against the same opponents. If you cannot complete your games by November 1st you need to DROP OUT of the tournament so your buddies don't get screwed because they couldn't finish their game with you. As soon as you determine that you will not finish by November 1st you need to email me so I can drop you. If a player drops as described above, ALL his games will be void and players' scores adjusted accordingly. Yes, this means if you scored 90 points against him you will lose that 90 points. If a player drops it is just like he never participated in the first place. Please, if you find you can't make the November 1st deadline (you should be able to tell a couple weeks earlier IMO) you need to drop out. Otherwise, those who didn't finish their games with you, through no fault of their own, will be disqualified for not finishing. If you have an opponent who is only managing a turn or two per week you might want to lean on him a bit. Remember, November 1st is THE deadline. [ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

The Stalin/Sajer game has been recorded. I'll update the standings tomorrow. Right now we need to talk about the FINAL Deadline for the completion of this tournament. I'm going to extend the tourney to November 1st. ANY player who has not completed ALL his games by then will be disqualified, ALL his completed games thrown out, and ALL players' scores adjusted accordingly. The whole idea of this tournament is for everybody to play everybody else one time, giving all players an equal number of games (chances to score points), with those games being against the same opponents. If you cannot complete your games by November 1st you need to DROP OUT of the tournament so your buddies don't get screwed because they couldn't finish their game with you. As soon as you determine that you will not finish by November 1st you need to email me so I can drop you. If a player drops as described above, ALL his games will be void and players' scores adjusted accordingly. Yes, this means if you scored 90 points against him you will lose that 90 points. If a player drops it is just like he never participated in the first place. Please, if you find you can't make the November 1st deadline (you should be able to tell a couple weeks earlier IMO) you need to drop out. Otherwise, those who didn't finish their games with you, through no fault of their own, will be disqualified for not finishing. If you have an opponent who is only managing a turn or two per week you might want to lean on him a bit. Remember, November 1st is THE deadline. [ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] [ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Changed my mind. Big announcement coming soon however. [ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Berlichtingen increases average with Major Defeat!! Congratulations, Berli!! Oh, the winner was Texas Toast by a score of 77-23. Congratulations, Texas Toast!! It is now time to offer the bonus prize of $50 US for the first time. The bonus game: Berlichtingen vs MickOZ!!! If either one of them can score 75 Points or more against the other the bonus prize will be sent to him upon completion of the game. This offer void if I have not received force purchases by September 15. That gives you guys about five weeks to arrange a game and get your purchases to me. If neither player achieves 75 points the Bonus Prize will be offered again at a later date. Now for the standings: Claymore...........99...1...99.00 Fionn.............539...7...77.00 CapDog.............75...1...75.00 Jshandorf.........144...2..72.00 Moon..............60...1...60.00 Texas Toast.......235...4...58.75 SuperTed..........179...4...44.75 Jarmo..............41....1...41.00 M. Dorosh..........150...4...37.50 Bill Hardenberger...70...2...35.00 MickOZ..............121...4...30.25 John Kettler.........20...1...20.00 Berlichtingen.......107...6...17.83

The highest point total at the end wins. This person will also have the highest average score per game at the end. Average score indicates a player's POTENTIAL to do well in the tournament. Because there is significant variation in the number of games players have completed, the actual score of players is less meaningful IMO.

Congratulations, Sock Monkey!! Here's how we stand sorted by average: Kiwi Joe.........232...3...77.33 GClement.........124...2...62.00 Sock Monkey......103...2...51.50 Stalin's Organ...189...4...47.25 KelsieD..........279...6...46.50 aka_tom_w........178...4...44.50 The_Capt.........129...3...43.00 Sajer............201...6...33.50

Another battle of The First Invitational War is finished. jShandorf has trounced Berlichtingen 86-14! Congratulations, jShandorf!! Hang in there, Berli. That last loss didn't hurt your average much at all. LOL!! You have nowhere to go but up. Here's how we stand, sorted by average: Claymore..........99...1...99.00 Fionn.............539...7...77.00 CapDog...........75...1...75.00 Jshandorf.......144...2...72.00 Moon.............60...1...60.00 Texas Toast.......158...3...52.67 SuperTed..........179...4...44.75 Jarmo..............41...1...41.00 M. Dorosh.........150...4...37.50 Bill Hardenberger...70...2...35.00 MickOZ.............121...4...30.25 John Kettler........20...1...20.00 Berlichtingen.....84...5...16.80

Yes, WineCape. On September 1st we will post the names of those applicants who have been selected, plus a few standby players. All applications are due August 24th. This deadline is set in stone!! It appears that just over 1/3 of the applicants will be accepted into the three simultaneous Wild Bill tourneys so do your best on the applications if you want to get in. I've already received some very good ones. [ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

News from the front!! CapitalistDogInChina has shattered the forces of SuperTed. The final score was 75-25. Congratulations, CapDogInChina!! Updated standings, sorted by average score: Claymore............99...1...99.00 Fionn..............539...7...77.00 CapDog..............75...1...75.00 Moon................60...1...60.00 Jshandorf...........58...1...58.00 Texas Toast........158...3...52.67 SuperTed...........179...4...44.75 Jarmo...............41...1...41.00 M. Dorosh..........150...4...37.50 Bill Hardenberger...70...2...35.00 MickOZ.............121...4...30.25 John Kettler.......20....1...20.00 Berlichtingen......70....4...17.50

New Age Santa, Naah, what you described isn't gamey. It sounds like Panther 76 rules to me. Stalin's Organ, Are you serious? I was just kidding, but it could be real fun. Why not have a 5,000 pt battle with a max of 1,000 for any mix of infantry you can imagine. That leaves 4,000 for uber weapons. No German rockets (too cheap), No naval guns, No planes, No forts. ANYTHING else goes on a large map. We may have to do this in the editor.

That wouldn't be a bad game Stalin, but you should also include a minimum arty size of 210 mm. It's also gamey to allow the British paras NOT to take .50s. You should change the "can" to "must" in that rule since the German player MUST take SMG squads. If it's a meeting engagement you need also require 5 TRPs per side since the prevailing opinion IMO is that meeting engagements are far from surprises.