Treeburst155

Hi Claymore, Here's the deal. Everything proceeds EXACTLY as it was in the beginning, before I caused all the ruckus with my "gamey rules". The only change is that I will not hear complaints concerning gamey tactics or force deletions. These issues are to be worked out between the players. I only have one confirmed withdrawal at this point. That is SuperTed. He is busy beta-testing the scenarios for the Wild Bill Tourneys. Fuerte is back on board. CapitalistDog and Bill Hardenberger MAY choose to play again if they are keeping up with this thread. Does that clear things up for you? CapitalistDog: I think your Email is down Update: Bill H is going to pass on this one, preferring instead to enjoy the Invitational Follies from the sideline. Stay tuned, Bill, you never know what might happen next. LOL!! [ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Don't worry Gentlemen. WineCape has everything correct. I confused him with my figures. I had 65+ REQUESTS for applications which I answered, but only the ones he listed above have come back completed so far. Everything is on track. No missing applications. If it made it to me then it made it to him. Juardis-your application has been re-sent to WineCape. [ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Welcome back, Fuerte!! I'm glad you decided to hang in there. We'll lose a few down the road I think, but that's the way it goes. Maybe we can still have some fun here. Now that you guys in Finland are awake I know it's way past my bed time. Good Night.

Hey there, CapDog!! Good to hear you climbed back on the ship. It helps my morale out a bunch. You guys just play and have fun! Talk about the gamey stuff before you start and all will be well I think. One other thing just came to mind. The force deletion issue has been a problem too. I forgot I tied that in with the gamey stuff. I'll handle that the same way. You guys need to talk that out amongst yourselves. Like gamey tactics, the force deletion issue does not exist as far as tourney management is concerned. Hey, I kinda like this new way of dealing with things. If there's a problem I simply refuse to hear it. The Supreme Court does that all the time. LOL!

A Better, More Liberal Approach to Gamey Play Rather than me putting myself in the position of possibly having to pass judgment on gamey tactics, which could cause me lots of grief; I will make it the players' responsibility to chat with each other about the issue BEFORE they begin a game. If you know where your opponent stands on the items in the "gamey list" I posted above then you will have no problems with each other. This means I will not entertain any complaints concerning gamey tactics. From a tourney management point of view there is no such thing. You have the list which spells out problem areas. It's up to you to talk through the list with your opponents. The list is ONLY a tool to help players understand each other better before they begin a game. There are no RULES regarding gamey play anymore. In fact, you and your opponent could agree to an "anything goes" fight if you want. Just be aware of what that means and know also that I will not hear ANY complaints concerning tactics used in these tourney games. This is the last I will say on this subject. This is the way it will be. I'll send the "gamey list" out to all the players when the tourney begins so they can print it out for quick reference while they chat about the issue with their opponents. Now I am moving on to more pleasant activities. I've just begun testing one of the scenarios with SuperTed. The briefing really gets you in the mood and the map is beautiful and that's all I can say, except that whoever gets into this tourney is lucky indeed.

You know the best way to handle this situation? It's such an easy solution I never thought of it. We play the tournament as is but I just refuse to hear any complaints over gamey play. All have been warned that they may face tactics that they disapprove of. These things should be discussed before you start the game. If they are not, and somebody pulls a gamey stunt on you then you live with it, or withdraw if it bothers you enough. I'm not going to deal with it. So, anyone who is still interested, just play your games. I'm here to take care of my end. All of you who dropped out because of my "gamey rules" are welcome to re-instate yourselves if you want. Just start playing your games again. No other action required. Everything is as it was in the beginning EXCEPT I no longer acknowledge the existence of gamey tactics. He did what to you? Gamey? What's that? It sounds like a personal problem to me. You get the idea. Play your games if you want. Withdraw if you want. Do whatever you want just don't come to me with complaints about tactics. The tourney will either live or it will die depending on if people stick it out. Be aware however that anyone who drops out will cause your score to be adjusted if you've played that person. This is necessary so everyone plays an equal number of games against the same opponents. So play away. Have Fun!! EDIT: Just to make things PERFECTLY clear to all. As far as I'm concerned this discussion of how to handle this tournament is over. What I've written above is what I want to do. From now on I will just be updating standings, reporting game results, and quite possibly reporting the latest withdrawal from the tournament. We'll just see what happens. [ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

John Kettler, We're having more than just a few dropouts. I'm getting some email (not nasty) too that expresses dissatisfaction with the new gamey rules. On top of that I think Leland's admonition against my trying to judge gamey play is something I really need to consider. IOW, the "gamey rules" could present more problems than they solve. In fact, I believe they already have. I'm for scrapping the whole thing and starting fresh with Invitational players that are willing, including the ones who have dropped out. We have to come up with some set of guidelines so I can avoid the major hassles the Invitational spawned. My "gamey rules" aren't the answer. I'm not willing to continue the Invitational as it stood before my "gamey rules" were announced, but I am willing to keep working on a solution where the invitees to that tournament can finally get their tournament if they want. In that sense the Invitational is not dead. I've just pushed the Emergency Stop button until some things are hashed out. I'm heading to work for a couple hours and maybe I'll come up with another idea. Hopefully it will be better than my last one too.

Ya gotta love the big arty, eh? Now not numbering files is way out of line IMO. That's gamey!!

Combined Arms, The Wild Bill Tourneys are alive and well. This thread concerns a different tournament.

Ben, I will definitely be offering something to you guys orphaned by the demise of the Invitational. Right now it's unclear what you guys want. We have to let the dust settle and find out what is on everybody's mind. Rest assured, there will be something available to you guys very soon. We can use this thread to discuss where we go from here.

Thanks Leland for the tips. My trying to pass judgement on gamey tactics would really be asking for trouble, wouldn't it?! Yeah, it's best not to go that route. That's why this tournament has to be scrapped and begun again IMO. There are many participants who probably are unaware of all that has transpired too. The whole tournament will have changed completely when they get back from their 2 week business trips. It's almost like any tournament would have to be "No Holds Barred" as far as tactics are concerned, like Iron Duke's tournament. In chess this gamey problem doesn't come up because there is no such concept in that game. I'm beginning to think that CM tournaments must necessarily be played in the same manner, as Fuerte suggested above. If the game allows it, it can be done, just like in chess. It's a competition so it's unnatural for people to avoid certain "moves" they KNOW would aid their cause just because SOME might think it gamey and complain. It's a tough situation. This tourney needs to be scrapped because of it IMO. To Jarmo, Mr Spkr, Ben Galanti, Claymore and any others who wish to keep playing; How about I continue purchasing forces and issuing maps to you guys until you've played all your games with those on your list who are still willing. The difference would be that I'm not going to keep score. You get to play on maps that are somewhat nicer that QB maps IMO, and you have a third party (me) to promptly transfer forces for you. You can play each other to your hearts content with any understandings and agreements you want. I would just be a PBEM service of sorts to help players get around the limitations of QBs by placing forces on custom made maps. There are quite a few nice custom maps out there I believe. Der Kessel has some, Rune has made some, David Aitken has a couple beautiful city maps. I would even be willing to put together some special order maps on occasion. I would enjoy providing this service to the community. Naturally, there is a limit to how much of this I can do, but I can certainly do it for the invitees to the "Stars" tournament at least. It doesn't take that long to transfer forces when you've done it 40 times. If it's the score keeping and the competition that makes the tourney interesting to you then we need to reorganize. If it's just the custom maps, and force choosing in the editor we can just keep going without all the hassles of keeping score and problems relating to the competitive nature of the tourney. Just a thought.

Berli, Good point! I agree. The gamey issue is not the root cause of the problem. It was the mixing of playing styles. BTW, your bonus game with MickOZ still stands. The offer of the prize was made to you two and I'll not go back on that. Neither one of you is to blame for any of these tourney problems. Have a glorious fight! Treeburst155 out.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ben Galanti: I'm fine with these. One thing to point out is, that before hand, folks can still agree to play an 'anything goes' type game, since none of these rules mean anything if nothing is reported to Treeburst. I don't mind these kind of things though, because, to me, doing anything to win, just because the game allows it, kinda ruins the fun for me. Obviously, this is a case of different strokes for different folks, and thats the great thing about CM, you can play it however you like. It's just inherintly difficult to set up a tourney like this with people coming from very different perspectives on these things. That being said, I agree that that the rule 7 is a little tough, but, again, I'd have a _real_ hard time 'reporting' someone, just because that doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the contest. I'd hope that people wouldn't take this so seriously that whether they won or not would matter that much, but apparently some folks were, which caused all of this ruckus in the first place... Ah well, I'm just happy that it's back on! Ben<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Read Ben's first paragraph!! This is the key. Communicate with your opponent BEFORE the game begins regarding ALL the POTENTIALLY gamey tactics I've listed. You could agree to throw them all out!! I don't care as long as I don't get complaints from your opponent. It's that simple. COMMUNICATION !!! Jarmo, Don't mourn the loss of this tourney. A new one will be started with those, like you, who wish it. I'm getting enough withdrawals on this one that many of the games would have to be thrown out anyway. It's best just to start clean with a smaller group. You should email me so I have you on record as wanting to take part in a tourney. As soon as things shake out we'll start a new one.

The thing to realize about these "gamey" rules is that they are NOT concrete. Every situation is different. The "rules" are merely guidelines to help players determine when they are stepping into the gray area. They are also to be used as talking points for pre-game discussion with your opponents. I would probably break several of these rules if I felt doing so IN A GIVEN SITUATION was realistic. That however is easy for me to say since I know how the judge thinks. The best way to avoid disputes surrounding gamey play is to take the time to get to know your opponent's views on the subject. Failure to do this contributed to the problems the Invitational Tourney is having. You will be playing people you have never played before so you have to get acquainted with each other. You may find you can throw out ALL the gamey tactics guidelines I've spelled out above if you have an easy going opponent. Again, the gamey rules are just guidelines for players. They spell out what you SHOULD talk about with your opponents before you begin playing. Your opponents will not complain to me if you come to a mutual understanding regarding the tactics spelled out above. Communication before the game begins is the key!

WineCape, I'm very sorry to hear about your wife's auto accident. It's good to know she wasn't seriously injured. We'll be here hashing out my unpopular rules while you take care of real life. To All, LOL!! I'm getting both historical and competition players dropping out over these rules. I never would have guessed that. I personally would love to play a tourney under these "rules". I think many of you misunderstand the new "rules". These are merely guidelines to avoid charges of gamey play by your opponent. They are an attempt to spell out what your opponents MAY be very unhappy with. Personally, I would probably break a few of these rules from time to time if I thought my use of the tactics IN A GIVEN SITUATION was not gamey. I would have no problem playing under these rules. Perhaps that is because I know how the judge thinks. There are three tournaments running on this forum that have been successful. The first one is Iron Duke's Ass Kicker Tournament. Those guys have a good time together. I played in the second one and enjoyed it thoroughly. There is no restriction on tactics in that tournament. Anything goes. It is a gamey tournament, but it is fun. The other two successful tournaments are WineCape I and II. These guys are playing QBs and basically negotiating their games amongst themselves with purchase restrictions in place (CAL Tournament House). Something went wrong with this tournament, and I'm convinced it concerns gamey play, yet people don't want to restrict its use. I'm really at a loss with this group. I'm totally puzzled. In any case, with so much un-fun negativity surrounding this tournament it really isn't any fun anymore is it? I'm willing to call this tournament a failure based largely on my management decisions from day one. I've learned from it and the experience will help me to run better tournaments in the future. I thank you all for participating in my BETA test. LOL!! And now it's time to bury this corpse of a tournament. If you are truly mourning its passing then email me. If there are enough of you interested we can work out the details for a smaller tournament. I still have lots of maps that most of you haven't seen. Some are quite good IMO. I think the sheer size of this one has contributed to its demise. The Invitational Tourney of "Stars"-may she rest in peace.

Those of you interested in this tournament should read the new "Invitational Tourney" thread. The rules against gamey play are not going over too well. These are the same rules this tournament will be using. We might as well find out now if you 65 or so applicants can handle playing under these rules. All I'm tyring to do is stop problems before they arise. The rules are just guidelines for handling troops in a realistic manner. None of them are set in stone. Let me hear what you think. If the gamey rules are unpopular I will try to think of another solution to my tourney mananger problems.

Some consider #7 gamey because it is so effective. The attacker doesn't suffer nearly the heavy casualties you mention above when he charges unsuppressed enemy positions. This is because the attacker charging through cover receives more cover bonus than he should and also, IIRC, puts out more fire than he should while running. This issue is being addressed in CMBB. There is at least one other game limitation involved in the "mass infantry rush". That is the fact that a unit can only fire on one unit at a time. Five squads attacking three will allow two to advance completely unmolested. This whole issue has been discussed at length, but I don't even bother with the search function anymore. Suffice it to say that some feel "the mass infantry rush" is far too effective. I tend to agree. All that is necessary IMO is that a good attempt be made to put covering/suppressive fire on the enemy position while the mad rush takes place. This is more realistic.

Here's a list of tactics that might just cost you a major defeat if your opponent gripes about you using them and I agree with him after studying the relevant movies. POTENTIALLY Gamey Tactics-Use at your own risk 1) Setting fire to "squares" or buildings unoccupied by enemy troops, ESPECIALLY to deny a VL or covered access to one. 2) Advancing large formations along the map edge. 3) Scouting with AT teams, crews of knocked out vehicles or guns, MG teams, and anybody who is "low" on ammo. 4) Recon with light (cheap) vehicles well into enemy territory. 5) Exposing AT teams SOLEY for the purpose of drawing enemy fire. 6) Ordering vehicle and gun crews to participate in an attack or hunt down enemy teams or spotters. 7) Rushing infantry straight at a known enemy position (especially through cover) with no supporting/suppressive fire. 8) Last minute flag rushes to acquire or contest a VL that you know you can't hold for another minute if the game were to continue. These are the tactics I will be concerned about that MIGHT cause you a Major Loss. Avoid them and you are safe. Use them and you have stepped into the risky gray area of "Potentially Gamey Tactics". GOLDEN RULES: Protect your AT teams until they have a target. Use half squads and spare HQs for scouting/recon. Keep your vehicle/gun crews alive. It's really not too hard to play the game as BTS intended once you have a little experience with the game. Use common sense. Role play as the commander. Question your motives when you give orders. Take care of your troops and equipment as best you can. [ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

OK, here's my list of POTENTIALLY gamey tactics. I will send this list to all tourney participants when the time comes. Now I'm going to move on to the more enjoyable aspects of getting ready for this tournament. POTENTIALLY Gamey Tactics-Use at your own risk 1) Setting fire to "squares" or buildings unoccupied by enemy troops, ESPECIALLY to deny a VL or covered access to one. 2) Advancing large formations along the map edge. 3) Scouting with AT teams, crews of knocked out vehicles or guns, MG teams, and anybody who is "low" on ammo. 4) Recon with light (cheap) vehicles well into enemy territory. 5) Exposing AT teams SOLEY for the purpose of drawing enemy fire. 6) Ordering vehicle and gun crews to participate in an attack or hunt down enemy teams or spotters. 7) Rushing infantry straight at a known enemy position (especially through cover) with no supporting/suppressive fire. 8) Last minute flag rushes to acquire or contest a VL when you couldn't hold it if the game were to go another turn. These are the tactics I will be concerned about that MIGHT cause you a Major Loss. Avoid them and you are safe. Use them and you have stepped into the risky gray area of "Potentially Gamey Tactics". You will be subjecting yourself to your opponent's opinion of gamey tactics and possibly my own if he complains. GOLDEN RULES: Protect (hide) your AT teams until they have a target. Use half squads and spare HQs for scouting/recon. Keep your vehicle/gun crews alive. It's really not too difficult to play the game as BTS intended. Use common sense and role play as the commander. Question your motives when you give orders. Take care of the men under your command as best you can.

The new Invitation Tourney thread is here: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=020866

Welcome. You've found the new thread. Be sure you read the last page of the previous thread so you know what's going on with the rules. Some important stuff is in there if you want to do well in this tournament. BTW, the thread was locked because of technical problems along with some others.

The tourney is still alive. I'm starting a new thread now. The new thread is here: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=020866 [ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] [ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Jaurdis, Several things have to happen in order to be convicted of "gamey play". 1) You have to do something that is considered by some to be gamey. 2) The actual person you are playing must consider it gamey enough to complain about. 3) I must agree with that person. Then, and only then would you be convicted of gamey play. A few will get caught by this rule even though they are innocent of "gamey intent"; but there's no other way. My advice to players is to think about the orders they give. Role play as the commander. Would you order that AT team, crew, etc. to do that in real life? Would they obey? I will post a list of POTENTIALLY gamey tactics that probably should be avoided just to stay on the safe side. Gamey tactics are definitely a gray area. Avoid the tactics I list and you will stay well out of the potentially deadly gray area. It's simple really. Enter the gray area at your own risk. Your opponent may not mind, and even if he does, I may not agree with him; BUT, you are taking a risk. To be convicted of "gamey play" is no more serious than a personal foul in basketball. You pay the price and the incident is forgotten. The price is steep just so players are careful, thereby preventing MANY problems. Enoch, Texas Toast has me squared away on how to pass out the maps and split the attack/defend duties equally. Thanks for the offer though. We will have to limit the tourney to 24 players and 7 scenarios according to Texas Toast. Evidently, to have 27 players (3x9)as I had originally planned would require nine scenarios rather than the eight I thought. We will use the extra scenario as a playoff scenario along with a Rune scenario I have in mind that has excellent replayability. Judging from the rate of play of the other tourneys I think 7 games per player is plenty.

OK, Fuerte has dropped out and SuperTed has dropped out. If you have finished a game with these guys then it won't count. Fuerte, if you would still like to play your game with Jarmo for fun just send me your purchases and I will place them on the map for you. I understand that some will not wish to play under the new rules. I expect more to drop out and I harbor no ill will. Other loose ends: I am unsure of the CapDog/Kettler final score. Could one of you two help me out here? Several games were initiated, but I had not received the force picks from one or both players. The folder containing these games was deleted accidentally so I need picks from BOTH players for the following games: Fionn/Claymore Fionn/Mr Spkr Fionn/Jarmo RobertH/Texas Toast Sorry to those of you above who already sent your picks in for the above games. Mr. Spkr, You understand the new rules correctly. Experience levels can be changed however you want, just no deleting. BTW, don't bother messing with Ammo levels, leader bonuses etc. as I ALWAYS repurchase your forces on a different map so those will go back to random/default.

OK, I've had time to cool off now. Here's the deal. I can continue to run this tournament as long as there are some rules in place which are listed below. 1) Gamey TACTICS will not be tolerated. Who determines what is gamey? I, the right honorable Judge Treeburst155 determine what is gamey. 2) How do you sue a player for gamey play? You describe the problem briefly and you send me movie files with your password. If I agree with you then the offending player will be found guilty and sentenced. 3) The sentence? An automatic 80-20 loss for that game. This will virtually insure that the game engine is not taken advantage of and will protect historical players so they can enjoy their games. I should warn everyone that I am very strict on what I consider gamey, but I will not make rash judgements. I will look hard at as many movie files as necessary from both players before I pass judgement. If you don't think you know a gamey tactic when you see one or order one you will probably learn the hard way. Ignorance of "the law" is no excuse. On the other hand, there should be no hard feelings directed at someone convicted of gamey play. Everyone has different views on what is gamey. If you are the victim of gamey play you will get your 80 point victory. Don't be unkind to the convict. He paid the price with his Major Defeat. So, this tourney is back on track. I just needed time to cool off. I should have cooled of BEFORE I cancelled this tournament. With no force picking and the rules above I think this tourney will go rather smoothly. I'm sorry for all the commotion. -------------------- Treeburst155 out.