Andreas

Here is is: Pareto Principle With picture. There is another thing called 'Pareto Optimum' in economics, which is the state of affairs where you can not make anyone better off without making somebody else worse off.

Please, do not try to detract from what this is about. I have never claimed the British used HE with their 2-pdr. Neither has anyone else here, as far as I can tell. It is not the beta testers who are against you, it is the evidence. You claiming this to be an issue of 'bias' is a bit like the pope claiming that the theory of the earth circling the sun is 'biased', and anyway, it can't be true because it is against received wisdom. That you have not read the document is not any excuse. Simon has provided you with a full reference. If you choose not to believe him, you can get the document yourself. So far you have not even shown the flimsiest bit of evidence for your claim, other than platitudes along the lines of 'wartime documents full of propaganda'. To turn someone pointing that out to you into persecution by 'the beta testers' is a bit rich, if you don't mind me saying so. Regarding the German auto-cannons, let's just see what you said, shall we: You may continue to claim that ACs with AP only are but we are still waiting to hear which ACs that were, and which modern vehicles those are. In your own time. The only prejudice in arguments is on your side, since others have gone on the basis of the available evidence. Not accepting the evidence for spurious reasons, and not bringing any evidence of your own, is not good enough. To then claim that 'the beta testers are against you' is plainly ridiculous. Where's the beef, Mark? Edit because I hate UBB code. [ March 03, 2003, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

I would tend to agree with this. In a 'just-below-crest' position, half the shots will go over into the green fields beyond, and the other half will plough in right in front of the gun emplacement, with little damage potential. Sounds more like a case of very good luck to have such a position and good tactical skill in finding it to me. I don't think this is an acknowledged bug, from re-reading the old thread, BTW. It was deemed 'worth a look'. Unless someone has another thread with a different response from BFC.

Well Mark, since you won't be swayed by any evidence, I guess the discussion is a bit pointless, especially since you have not provided a shred of evidence to support your own claim. It is useful though for future reference when you have questions again, as for the need to answer them. You are ruling yourself out as a serious participant in any discussion by your behaviour here, as far as I am concerned. It appears to me that the documents you read are being interpreted by you in a way that suits your personal prejudices, and that you give at best cursory glances to responses you get here, if any. The document was from Simon, not John. Your idea about home-made manufacture of 2-pdr HE sits very badly with the combat reports that were posted a few posts up. You are still claiming that non-issue of 2-pdr HE to British tank formations in the Western Desert equates to non-existance. Your off-the-planet statement on German 20mm HE has also not been retracted or rephrased. How do you address any of that. I guess we can all consider ourselves lucky that standards of evidence for CMBB are higher than what you are willing to accept. Your argument about economic crisis also does not wash. By the time the HE shipments occurred, home-guard did not even need pointed sticks to defend against a German invasion - we are talking 1941-3. What if the Soviets requested the ammo - ever thought of that? What if shipping constraints to the middle east made the War Office decide that the space taken up by 2-pdr HE was better used for something else?

Hi Schrullenhaft - the Mac user in question is me. There is another Mac user involved too though with problems, which makes me think it maybe Kip's rig that is the problem. I have no trouble connecting to anyone else, and played a TCP game yesterday without restarting the machine after the attempt with Kip failed. Tech spec: OS 9.2.2, G4/400 CMBB 1.02, DSL connection, no firewalls I am aware of, no proxy, no anti-virus software running.

I am still machine-gunning Mr.Blue's truck, and to add to the enjoyment and hilarity, I am also throwing HE at some of his infantry. Apart from that, I guess I have to turn once my forces reach the opposite end of the map to engage him. He seems to be of the methodical, Monty-like sort. Well, never play 'attrition' with a Russian force, you know you are going to lose.

While we are at it, which better guns were sent to the West? AFAIUI that 2-pdr ATG was a perfectly adequate gun at the beginning of the war. Most certainly beat the German 37mm, and the Soviet 45mm that suffered from ammo quality problems. I would assume it would beat the Polich and French 25mm ATGs as well. At the time, the mainstay of the German armoured force had 30-50mm armour, if not less. The 2-pdr could easily get through this at 500 yards. The letdown was the behind-armour effects, due to it being solid shot. But to call the 2pdr gun 'obsolete at the start of the war' when everybody else thought that 37mm guns made perfectly adequate tank and anti-tank guns, and 30-50mm armour @ 0° was sh*thot, is a bit, errr, quaint...

Production of German 20mm HE rounds (in 1,000): 1939 - 5 532,2 1940 - 14 609,0 1941 - 8 353,8 1942 - 6 726,5 1943 - 861,0 1944 - 0 These rounds were useable for the 2cm KWK in the ACs and Panzer II, and presumably also in the 20mm AA gun. In 1988 I was trained on the modern 20mm AA gun from Rheinmetall which fired 'Sprengbrand' (HE/Incendiary) rounds. I am quite sure that the 20mm gun on the Marder to this day fires HE, since there is little that it could do with solid shot. Mark, I must say your statements get increasingly bizzare. How about you just acknowledge that you seem to have little idea what you are talking about?

edit - I am an idiot [ March 02, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

Hmm, weird. I sent out a corrected version, but maybe it only got corrected at Der Kessel. I'll check. They are supposed to appear in the Soviet rear area, on the street.

Dear Mr. Blue the superiority of our Razchedviki is second to none, as this picture clearly shows. We know where you live, and more importantly, we are already busy scuttling that vile plan of yours. Ask the crew of this fascist truck whether they would not have preferred a life at home, instead of being shot at by a subgroup of dedicated workers and peasants who have exchanged the spade and forklift for the machine-gun and tank to bring sweet liberation to the children of the Rodina. As this picture shows: Your men are already running in round three - it is heartening to see that they get some practice in. They will need it. The War Council and Political Leadership of Mr.Brown's troops.

Dear Mr. Blue My name is Mr.Brown, and I am representing the Southern Albania Pyramid Win Quick™ scheme. We have come up with a unique way to help you become an awesome (and by that I mean totally sweet) CMBB tourney player. All you have to do is surrender to me now, and then find six more people to surrender to me as well. Once you have done so, I will send you a paper acknowledging your contribution, and you are free to find another nitwit, err, new member of the scheme to surrender to you. Do not hesitate! Act now! It is your chance to enter the hallowed halls of CMBB stardom! Yours wholeheartedly Mr Brown

Ken, unlikely it was the 25th, since that was the day when 5th Panzer arrived quite far behind the frontline, and fighting was still 50-70km east of Borrisov, nowhere near Minsk.

Just finished 'One final stab'. very highly recommended city battle. Got a minor victory as Soviets, my opponent thought he had won, and so did I. Nice one, don't waste it on the AI.

I assume the battles you want to portray are the ones on 1st July, to the north of Minsk. In that case Zaloga gives the Soviet units involved as 5th Guards Tank Army's 29th Tank Corps and 3rd Guards Mechanised Corps. All very chaotic.

Jim, the picture is only the thumbnail from my 'Beobachtungsabteilung' site (link in my sig). The 'sock' is a round that came out of the barrel. The picture was taken in AG North sector, probably Ssinyavino/Mga area. I believe it is a standard 75mm gun on this one. According to my grandfather the tank lost a duel with a howitzer battery, but that maybe 'Landsergarn'.

w00t!

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think that now after at least two reports here on the existence of 2-pdr HE, maybe it is your turn to bring a statement of the 'fact' that 'no 2-pdr HE round was ever produced' (my emphasis). So far you can only show that it was not used in the Western Desert. Which does not mean it was never produced - maybe all the rounds were shipped to the SU? Maybe the British generals in charge of tanks felt it was pointless to have a 2-pdr HE round?

The RSPCA would be shocked.

Assuming this tank wreck was not the result of a collision with a reindeer, I guess the answer is 'yes'.

Mark, can you maybe explain to me (and Simon, and John, and various others interested) of the relevance of Western Desert reports of British tankforces fighting with the Matilda to shipment reports for a specific type of ammunition to the SU for Soviet tank forces fighting with the Matilda?

Sig material

And how many were deployed in frontline troops? The vast majority of KV tanks (in June '41) were assigned to divisions and brigades held in reserve behind Moscow. The German infantry divisions were up front. I'd say there were far more infantry guns within two miles of the front than there were KV tanks. Most of the KV tanks produced after the invasion were sent directly to frontline troops. Cheers Olle </font>

Dear Mr. Blue Allow me to introduce myself. I am Mr.Brown, and I act as executor of the estate of the late Iosef Stalin, who was just run over by a bus on a visit to Lagos, Nigeria. As such, I have to dispose of vast sums of money. You can assist me in this by surrendering in your game against me now, to give me more time to write a cheque over 20% of the vast, unbelievable sum of money I am currently sitting on, out to you. All you have to is surrender now, and all this money can be yours. Do not hesitate. Very sincerely yours. Mr. Brown