Andreas

The site Mike linked on page 1 of this thread ( Here it is again ) has three reports on interviews by the official historian, Major Stacey, with returnees from JUBILEE, as well as three reports assessing the operation. I somehow doubt the latter reports are weeing on Mountbatten's cornflakes to anywhere near the degree he deserves though. [ May 10, 2003, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

Hans, Jentz has it as a SS-Panzergrenadierdivision, with 12 Panthers on 31st May 1944, only 5 of these operational. No other tanks, and no info on the specific version. I doubt that it would be much, if at all reinforced by September, since inbetween the calamity known as Bagration happened. sPpzAbt 502 he gives 57 Tiger with 33 operational. By September it was sent to R&R in Sennelager, Germany.

That's what you get for being early at the Railway Telegraph all the time.

w00t! Thanks a lot Sergei. I obviously don't get enough sleep these days, should have thought of that myself.

Thanks a lot - found the Mr.Noobie T34 without trouble, but it does not seem that Sami has submitted his mod to CMMODS.com? At least I could not find him under that name. AIUI CMMOS is not available for the Macintosh, so that's no help either. Cheers.

Hostilities between MTJS and the Hilterite Harbingers of Hallowedness have now been formally openend, with both sides throwing lead at long distances. He keeps telling me how much he admires my forces- and I must say, Feldgrau is very becoming to your average Stormtrooper, and it is soooo current! (Not at all like this ghastly mud-cake brown his men are wearing, which is just soooo 1940s). Never mind the fashion though, we all know that what counts is to Be Prepared™. To show how much my men are prepared, here is a picture from our latest session in which I had taught them how to defend themselves against fresh turnips (Ha! We all know there is no fruit under Communism) or a bowl of Borschtsch. With nothing but a pointed stick, some MG42s and the odd Stug or two.

Ahem. Just tried looking for the mods of these two tanks with the air recognition stripe or whatever it was which these tanks sported during the Berlin operation (at least). After digging on CMMODS.com for a few minutes I realised it is a futile undertaking, since I do not know the name of the designer, and the mod naming convention appears to be all over the place. Can someone point out to me where I can find these? Any help much appreciated.

John, was that with or without the MWPAR™ (Magic War Prolonging Assault Rifle)?

Martin, I thought the same, I guess the idea is that in the 2nd setup you can position your main force on the right approach route.

Indeed. Surrendering to a civilised opponent beats getting killed in action anyday, in my view at least. I'd rather read about my 'cowardice' in the newspaper over a bowl of Spaghetti than have my relatives read my orbituary about how heroically I died. No pasta on Orkney though, I guess. They still have the chapel for the Italian POWs, who helped to build the Churchill barriers to protect Scapa from other further U-Boot incursions, there.

In the light of what started this thread, I am currently reading: from the same website. There are some classic thigh-slappers in there. Such as this one from a German KTB: (Emphasis by me) All those trappers and Mounties from the Canadian Dominion really showing what they are made off. That hard outdoor life in Halifax, Montreal and Calgary must have made all the difference. Interesting quote from a footnote by the Canadian author here though: [ May 08, 2003, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

Now we are beginning to get somewhere. Since not many soldiers shoot at each other, what would the effect be of giving them a better weapon (better only in some specific circumstances) to pursue this activity be on the outcome of the war as a whole?

That appears to be a very commendable attitude to me.

BTW - does anyone actually have the numbers of tanks fielded by the Pommies against the Italians before the German arrival? ISTR there were still a fair number of Vickers, and probably Matilda I around. I don't think the Western Desert Force defeating the Italians had much to do with the superiority or otherwise of their tanks. Here is some techy and other information on the tanks of the UK forces in North Africa. Equipment used by the Tank Regiments BTW - the whole site appears to be written a lot better, and more with an eye to historical accuracy than providing stirring stuff, than the sites William is dredging up (where does he find them?). Ian Patterson's Desert Rat Site [ May 08, 2003, 05:09 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

Wisbech - them are some great books. I wish we had something similar from the German perspective in English. I can think of Metelmann 'Through Hell for Hitler' and Bidermann 'In deadly combat', but not much else. BTW - Bidermann says the Stug44 was often claimed by the officers. Make of that what you will, but I think it is interesting considering all the great war-prolonging things people here are suggesting could have been done with it (you know, send the guys of to flank the opponent etc.).

I very seriously suggest reading 'The recollections of Rifleman Bowlby', and then coming back telling us whether in your opinion him having an assault rifle instead of a Lee-Enfield would have made bugger all difference in the situations he describes. Or Ganter's 'Roll me over'. After reading those, I would also like to see whether you still think infantry was the most effective weapon on the battlefield. Somehow casualty statistics fail to bear that one out, but if you have any data to support that argument, I would be keen to see it. The real killer in WW2 was artillery. Dupuy (IIRC) said that his job as an infantry comander was just to bring the FOO to the next ridge-line. Since you were trained on the G3, I assume, please let me know your evaluation of its usefulness in a close-combat situation. Personally, I take the Uzi anytime. Failing that, if you lock me in a room, I take my chances with the spade, and let the other guy have the G3. Regarding grenades - the key is not to bring just 2-3.

88s? 10cm K18? 155mm howitzers? You don't need a lot of either of these to stop a massive number of tanks that can not engage you at a distance and are to slow to close before you shred them.

Yes. The main weapon close-up is the grenade anyway because you can employ it without exposing yourself. That is harking back to two things I have been saying throughout: 1) The two guys need to be trained up to a level where you can rely on them to do that. Complaints about the decline in the level of replacements start in late 1941 for the Germans. Mike also pointed out teh reduction in training. 2) You are looking at different section tactics than the Germans would employ if you split things that way. So you need to fundamentally alter your training approach. The Germans were doing very well with rifles and MGs until late 1942 (in some instances until later, e.g. the Huertgenwald or the close-in fighting in Normandy), and very badly thereafter. That indicates to me that it was not a problem of bolt-action vs. automatic rifles. I have no issue with the argument that ceterus paribus the squad with a high level of automatic weapons is better off. That is a no-brainer. I do not believe for a second that ceterus paribus conditions are relevant to the argument made though about Stug44s prolonging the war, and I therefore do not think that any change in outcome would have occurred. I second the bit on MacDonald Fraser. Did he not 'lose' his Tommygun?

Even better 10cm K18

Tracer, whatever you are smoking, give it up before it leaves permanent damage. The part in brackets ending on 'Sir' is a quote by a UK satire TV programme. It appears to be true that the UK and the US are divided by a common language. Never mind the tank, what about the 'going around it' bit? Or the question why you would get a VC if charging the MG nest is the standard response? Or any of Mike's questions? Or some punctuation to make your posts semi-comprehensible?

If the standard tactic is to rush the place, why do they give out VCs for doing so? But never mind that. Not having a military background, I would have thought the best COA is to go around it, or to call up a tank to take it out, or any number of things, with "going toward that position" being pretty much the last option, or one being employed by extremely incompetent junior commanders. (Now, would that plan involve climbing out of the trench and moving at a slow pace towards the enemy, Sir?) Spook, interested to hear your take on things.

Well, I guess I could just publish it here With apologies to all Italians here. I really love your country. I do. I can't wait to blow it up in CMAK. Must be genetic.

The Baltic 'volunteer' divisions of the Waffen SS were called 'Waffengrenadier'.

Err, the Canadians did neither order nor prepare nor plan the raid. Mike is right, the important lessons could have been learned if someone had bothered looking up the Gallipolli experience, instead of sending hundreds of men into a death-trap with crappy preparation. But hey, Mountbatten was a member of the Royle family, so instead of getting the sack he was sent to be C-in-C SE Asia in Ceylon, and got a medal. In the best traditions of the Empire.

When people are finished telling each other how great the US Army is, how about addressing some of Mike's questions? Or just answering my simple question - would you rather be with a squad of Marines with Springfields, or a squad of Taliban militia with Kalashnikovs? Here, have a 'Rara USA' from me thrown in as well.