von Lucke
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Posts posted by von Lucke
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True, it works in the Editor. However, not when setting up Quick Battles --- which is how most people play the game.Originally posted by Panther Commander:You can get the Afika Korps by going to July 1941. BFC is aware of it. Simply pick any date you want put in the equipment then go back and change the date the equipment stays. SO you can do any battle you want by just changing the date in the editor.
No, you can't. CMAK's beginning date is limited to Dec '40 --- can't go back any farther than that.You can get the earlier Italians the same way. -
True --- put this would not be actually adding, so much as switching over an already existing model. Not as difficult, I would think (hope).Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):I'm not sure how viable it is with the current engine to do a "patch as expansion" thing. Most of the patches have been tweaks and repairs.
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The only captured vehicles in use in CMAK are by the Germans: Matildas and Valentine III.
Would like to see the Aussies get M13's in 40 / 41 --- but don't know if it will happen in a patch, or not.
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I think it's supposed to represent the area of most action on the second day of battle (6 Feb).
Emphasis is mine, but this is quoted from the MagWebEuropa WW2 site, from an article by David H. Lippman:
1/RTR was 7th Armored Div reserve, mounting Cruiser tanks and Mk VI's --- all the Matildas being with 7th RTR up north with the Australians.The Italians moved out at 8:30 a.m., without artillery, targeting a small rise in the road just west of the mosque, logically called the Pimple.Meanwhile, the British, under Brig. J. A. L. Caunter, prepared for the attack. 4th Armoured Brigade was nearly at the end of its tanks division's reserve was only 10 cruiser tanks. Caunter had plenty of worries: cold, wind, rain, sandstorms, and the fact that he was far beyond the range of RAF support.
At dawn, patrols told Caunter the Italian column, stretching for miles, was moving south. Caunter's men stood to. 2nd RTR, with 19 tanks at the edge of a slope, faced 60 Italian machines at the Pimple.
But as the Italians attacked, the British got in the all-important first shot, their guns ripping through the Italian armor, turning M13s into burning coffins, wrecking eight. Before the stunned Italians could return fire, the British had withdrawn down the slope, to repeat the example, destroying seven more tanks with no loss. The Italians opened up with artillery and committed their reserves, as did the British.
The Italian numerical advantage was no help. Most Italian vehicles had no radios. The British instituted a drill movement right out of Salisbury Plain training exercises. With the snap order,"Hello all stations. Tanks left and attack the Pimple," the British counterattacked.
The Italians, lacking the effciency of radio, stolidly moved to their predetermined objectives, and waited for orders. The Italians fought with great determination but in total disarray.
A Squadron of 2nd RTR soon scooped up 250 PoWs. British artillery expended nearly all it ammunition to break up attacking Italian infantry columns.
At 10 am., The Italian defenders at Sceledeima were told to pull out and get to the Pimple. They raced down the road and into the 7th Hussars.
Even so, the British were in trouble. The Italians were streaming down endlessly; 60 tanks had been knocked out, but more were coming...and 2nd RTR was out of ammunition...4th Brigade needed more help. Where was 1st RTR?
By 11:25 a.m., 2nd RTR was down to 13 cruiser tanks. At noon it only had 10. 7th Hussars was in worse shape -- it had only one cruiser tank left.
The Italians, sensing victory, kept charging, firing artillery over open sights at pointblank range.
The crisis hit at 3 p.m. 7 Hussars found the tail of the Italian column and attacked it. 3rd Hussars battled Italian tanks. 2nd RTR, driven off the Pimple, tried to break round. Now British radio communications had broken down. At this point, it seemed the British might crack.
But the 1/RTR finally arrived, and rumbled towards the sound of the guns, driving the Italian tanks northwest. Bergonzoli was halted. 2nd RTR had destroyed 51 M13s for a loss of 3 tanks and seven men. Other outfits destroyed 33 tanks. 10,000 Italians had surrendered.
As for the odd orientation of the map, yr guess is as good as mine there...
Is it just me, or are Cruiser tanks no match for M13's? Seems like the M13's can take a few hits, but the Cruiser's go down with just one pop.
And speaking of odd scenarios, try the Bir el Gubi battle: I was expecting the Charge of the Light Brigade, and ended up with a standard combined-arms attack.
[ December 16, 2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: von Lucke ]
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I think it's supposed to represent the area of most action on the second day of battle (6 Feb).
Emphasis is mine, but this is quoted from the MagWebEuropa WW2 site, from an article by David H. Lippman:
1/RTR was 7th Armored Div reserve, mounting Cruiser tanks and Mk VI's --- all the Matildas being with 7th RTR up north with the Australians.The Italians moved out at 8:30 a.m., without artillery, targeting a small rise in the road just west of the mosque, logically called the Pimple.Meanwhile, the British, under Brig. J. A. L. Caunter, prepared for the attack. 4th Armoured Brigade was nearly at the end of its tanks division's reserve was only 10 cruiser tanks. Caunter had plenty of worries: cold, wind, rain, sandstorms, and the fact that he was far beyond the range of RAF support.
At dawn, patrols told Caunter the Italian column, stretching for miles, was moving south. Caunter's men stood to. 2nd RTR, with 19 tanks at the edge of a slope, faced 60 Italian machines at the Pimple.
But as the Italians attacked, the British got in the all-important first shot, their guns ripping through the Italian armor, turning M13s into burning coffins, wrecking eight. Before the stunned Italians could return fire, the British had withdrawn down the slope, to repeat the example, destroying seven more tanks with no loss. The Italians opened up with artillery and committed their reserves, as did the British.
The Italian numerical advantage was no help. Most Italian vehicles had no radios. The British instituted a drill movement right out of Salisbury Plain training exercises. With the snap order,"Hello all stations. Tanks left and attack the Pimple," the British counterattacked.
The Italians, lacking the effciency of radio, stolidly moved to their predetermined objectives, and waited for orders. The Italians fought with great determination but in total disarray.
A Squadron of 2nd RTR soon scooped up 250 PoWs. British artillery expended nearly all it ammunition to break up attacking Italian infantry columns.
At 10 am., The Italian defenders at Sceledeima were told to pull out and get to the Pimple. They raced down the road and into the 7th Hussars.
Even so, the British were in trouble. The Italians were streaming down endlessly; 60 tanks had been knocked out, but more were coming...and 2nd RTR was out of ammunition...4th Brigade needed more help. Where was 1st RTR?
By 11:25 a.m., 2nd RTR was down to 13 cruiser tanks. At noon it only had 10. 7th Hussars was in worse shape -- it had only one cruiser tank left.
The Italians, sensing victory, kept charging, firing artillery over open sights at pointblank range.
The crisis hit at 3 p.m. 7 Hussars found the tail of the Italian column and attacked it. 3rd Hussars battled Italian tanks. 2nd RTR, driven off the Pimple, tried to break round. Now British radio communications had broken down. At this point, it seemed the British might crack.
But the 1/RTR finally arrived, and rumbled towards the sound of the guns, driving the Italian tanks northwest. Bergonzoli was halted. 2nd RTR had destroyed 51 M13s for a loss of 3 tanks and seven men. Other outfits destroyed 33 tanks. 10,000 Italians had surrendered.
As for the odd orientation of the map, yr guess is as good as mine there...
Is it just me, or are Cruiser tanks no match for M13's? Seems like the M13's can take a few hits, but the Cruiser's go down with just one pop.
And speaking of odd scenarios, try the Bir el Gubi battle: I was expecting the Charge of the Light Brigade, and ended up with a standard combined-arms attack.
[ December 16, 2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: von Lucke ]
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To re-quote myself.Originally posted by von Lucke:Or the Savoia Division at Dongolaas Gorge, or the Folgore Division's fighting retreat after el Alamein, or the actions of Italian Navy commandos, etc., etc.
Didn't say they were cowards. I am saying they were less than interested in laying down their lives for the cause. Big difference in running away in fear and panic, and just deciding you don't want to fight anymore.
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...point!Originally posted by Pkunzipper:I agree. This is one of the few times I see this topic discussed with enough intelligence by everyone...
Botto, the ones that fought with RSI were no more and no less brave than the ones that stayed with the king or the partisans...
Men of all nations are equals, what that makes them behave in differents way are things like motivations (remember that Mussolini never was democratically elected), quality of weapons and their effectivness against enemy (Italy had no effective AT weapons, few SMG and also an old inadeguate 6.5mm rifle!), supplies and leadership.
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...my...Originally posted by CRSutton:Coward is a relative term. You have to have an understanding of the political situation in Italy to really understand the motivation of the front line troops. By 1940, many Italians had soured on the facists and their leader. Italian overseas adventures had sapped the economy and most of the troops and a substantial portion of the high command had little if any reguard for the African campaign.
Few saw any merit in their presence in North Africa. The were disliked by the local population, poorly equipped, and poorly treated by their officers. This did not create a situation where the troops were highly motivated to fight. Italians are men just like any other nationality. When given the proper motivation, they will fight. WWI gives us a clear picture of that.
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Exactly...Originally posted by jmbunnelle:Ah, I always loved the Italians due to their penchant for surrendering in NA. A true sign of their superior intelligence and fiercely democratic spirit, IMHO. Shows how much their heart was really behind Fascism and Il Duce. Highly democratic societies (no, the U.S. doesn't count) always produce sh***y soldiers because they ask too many questions and don't follow orders. "Yes, but WHY do I want to charge into that artillery barrage?" LOL
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Yes, yes, all very good --- but most of the actions you cite involve paratroopers, commandos, or Young Fascists. Units formed of volunteers, given more intensive training, indoctrination, motivation than your average line infantry. It's the same in all armies --- but we're only talking about a small percentage of the overall force.
Even the regular division you mention most frequently, the Trieste Division, spent most of it's time in the shadow of the DAK --- which, no doubt, provided the Italians with more in the way of training, supplies, motivation, etc.
For instance:
This was 22nd Armored Brigades' first action, and the Yeomanry regiments went into battle using simple fire-and-move tactics, with no infantry or artillery support --- basically a cavalry charge.Originally posted by Botto:BIR EL GOBI
November 19 1941- British attack Axis forces at Bir El Gobi. Ariete's 146 M13/40's take the brunt of the attack and stop the British advance. The Ariete deploy in three battalion sized formations with twenty four 75/27's, thirty 47/32's, twelve 105/28's and seven 102/35's. The Ariete with 73 guns and 137 tanks, engaged the 28 pdrs. and 158 Crusaders of the XXII Armoured Brigade of the British. The XXII lose 55 tanks at Bir El Gobi and spend the next two days in the Allied rear regrouping.
Even so, the Italians lost 34 tanks (and 15 damaged). More relevant to my point, some of the defenders (the right-hand line being overrun fairly easily) gave up early in the action, but finding no follow-on Brit infantry to surrender to, re-manned their guns, and commenced to shooting at the backs of the green tankers. And British sources say only 25 Crusaders were lost to enemy fire --- mostly thanks to those 102mm naval gun portées --- though about 30 more of the new Crusader tanks suffered mechanical breakdowns outside the battle area.
Really? My sources show that 22nd and 4th Armored retired to the area of Gabr Saleh on the night of 19 - 20 Nov, and that they would be engaged there (and later, in a running battle back to Sidi Rezegh) for the next three days by 15th and 21st Panzer. While this is going on, the Ariete Division stayed put at Bir el Gubi, screened by 5th, then 1st South African Brigades; and finally 22nd Guards Bde.Over the next few days, the Ariete attack the XXII and IV Armoured Brigade and by November 23, the Ariete, Trieste and Savona account for more than 200 British tanks destroyed along with roughly 200 British vehicles.23 November --- Tottensontag: The Brits began with little over 100 tanks to begin with (22nd with 30 / 7th with 10 / 4th with 75), and most of them (the 4th Armored Bde) were reorganizing in the desert to the east of the coming battle. That leaves a whole 40 tanks --- hardly "over 200". Anyway, it was mostly the 5th South African Brigade (infantry) that ended up being cut to ribbons that day, with the DAK doing the cutting.
The Ariete Division was meant to take part, yes, but their infantry had been pinned at Bir el Gubi by the 22nd Guards --- leaving the M13/40's to move north alone. The tanks then had to take a wide detour around 1st South African Brigade, so arrived on the western flank of the battlefield too late to do more than aid in mopping up what was left of 5th SA.
The Trieste and Savona Divisions are nowhere to be seen during all this. IIRC, Trieste was SE of Tobruk, and what was left of Savona was way over on the Egyptian frontier, facing off with 4th Indian Division.
To put a capper on it, when the Ariete Division did finally catch up with what was left of 4th Armored (with a meager 37 tanks) on 26 November near Taieb el Esem, all the Italians could muster was a little desultory long-range artillery fire, before breaking off contact and withdrawing once night fell.
[ December 15, 2003, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: von Lucke ]
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Now that COG has put the CMAK page into operation (sort of), it's time for some real mods. I want --- no, need! --- that Matilda!
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So, how does it play with the tweaks from CM mk3?
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Or the Savoia Division at Dongolaas Gorge, or the Folgore Division's fighting retreat after el Alamein, or the actions of Italian Navy commandos, etc., etc.Originally posted by massimorocca:Italian lost 600k men killed in the first world war. Not so bad for a bunch of cowards.
Yes in the second world war they surrendered at Agedabia, I heard of surrender at Bataan, Singapore, Tobruk, Kiev, Stalingrad, where there are no Italians. Usually encircled men with no hope to be salvaged surrender. Men walking in the sand with no water in the desert must surrender if they cannot break the ring and is difficult to do it with 47at against Matilda.
To see what Italians can do also in desperate situations look to the breaking of the Russian ring after operation "Little Uranus"
Didn't say they were cowards. I am saying they were less than interested in laying down their lives for the cause. Big difference in running away in fear and panic, and just deciding you don't want to fight anymore.
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Hmmm... Sounds a lot like what the typical landser had to endure in Russia in '43, but they weren't exactly surrendering in droves...Originally posted by Andreas:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ianc:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hmmm, let's see: A repressive Fascist dictatorship sends me to an empty wasteland, with inadequate weapons and limited supplies, then my incompetent officers place me in indefensible positions with no support, and then people wonder why I surrender to the first Tommy to wander within 500m of me? Uh-huh.
ianc </font>
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Ach, zo. I Right-Clicked on the left-hand panel, chose "Cached Snapshot of Page", et voilà, she is done!Originally posted by johnnymo:I was having the login problem (using Internet Explorer), but solved it by hitting SHIFT-F5 after loggiing in. Looks like the web server is cacheing the page, that key combination forces it to serve you the true current page.
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AAAARRRGGGHHH!!!!
I have my nose pressed to the glass, but I just...Can't...Get...In!
Even up-loaded a little something --- which I can edit, etc. --- but I can't get past the whole Log-in / Upload page to see what anybody else has added.
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Yup. Only thing I can do is "Log in" or "Add a CMAK Mod".
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Hmmm, let's see: A repressive Fascist dictatorship sends me to an empty wasteland, with inadequate weapons and limited supplies, then my incompetent officers place me in indefensible positions with no support, and then people wonder why I surrender to the first Tommy to wander within 500m of me? Uh-huh.
Then there's the Bologna Division that, during the retreat from el Alamein, marched through the desert for 2 days without water, beating off several attacks by Brit armor and infantry, before forming a square with the remaining survivors and taking on all comers for most of a day before surrendering --- and then only because they'd run out of ammo and water.
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The Commonwealth Vickers HMG (1934.bmp) never shows up in-game. Every water-jacketed HMG shows up as the 1917 Browning (1943.bmp). Somebody transpose a number?
The hard-coded tripod for the .50cal is too small for the gun --- there's a big gap where they should meet.
The US sniper always has a M1 Garand (1915.bmp) instead of the '03 Springfield (1942.bmp) --- even though the French, once they start using US kit, do have the '03.
(Oh, and that was cute using 1911.bmp for the 1911 Colt).
[ December 12, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: von Lucke ]
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Ummm, I may be mistaken (happens all the time around here), but isn't 1909.bmp a PPSh? Only found this out because I'm importing several .bmp's from CMBO / CMBB, and 1909 corresponds to the Thompson in CMBO.
Who would be using a PPSh in CMAK? Haven't seen one yet, but I suppose some Axis soldats fresh in from the Ostfront...?
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My opponent and I are still going at it in Round 4, so AFAIK, it's still on-going.
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According to this site (which also reflects what I've read elswhere), there were a couple of Italian para battalions in Libya from the start of hostilities in 1940. However, they didn't see combat until January '41:
In CMAK, Italian paras first arrive in July '41 --- which coincides with the arrival of the 1st (Carabinieri) Para Battalion in Libya --- and then goes straight through until the end, May '43....in January 1941 were they deployed in Cyrenaica to try to stop the British advance, and that as regular infantry. Officially, the paras only encountered the enemy on 15 January 1941 at Derna, when they were organised in a unit known as Tonini Mobile Group from the name of commander, col. Tonini. From there, the paras fought without interruption as the rearguard of the retreating 10th Army until the last battle at Beda Fomm (February 7th, 1941) when the remnants were forced to surrender.However, the 1st Para Batt was wiped out between 18-20 December '41 --- leaving an almost seven month gap before the Folgore Division arrives in July '42.
And the remnants of the Folgore Div (all 200 of them) were wiped out at the end of April '43, at Takrouna, Tunisia.
So, in conclusion:
Add paras in from Jan - Feb '41; take them out between Jan - June '42; remove them from May '43.
Thank you for your attention.
PS: Any of you Eye-Tie CM players out there care to throw in yr two lire worth?
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According to this site (which also reflects what I've read elswhere), there were a couple of Italian para battalions in Libya from the start of hostilities in 1940. However, they didn't see combat until January '41:
In CMAK, Italian paras first arrive in July '41 --- which coincides with the arrival of the 1st (Carabinieri) Para Battalion in Libya --- and then goes straight through until the end, May '43....in January 1941 were they deployed in Cyrenaica to try to stop the British advance, and that as regular infantry. Officially, the paras only encountered the enemy on 15 January 1941 at Derna, when they were organised in a unit known as Tonini Mobile Group from the name of commander, col. Tonini. From there, the paras fought without interruption as the rearguard of the retreating 10th Army until the last battle at Beda Fomm (February 7th, 1941) when the remnants were forced to surrender.However, the 1st Para Batt was wiped out between 18-20 December '41 --- leaving an almost seven month gap before the Folgore Division arrives in July '42.
And the remnants of the Folgore Div (all 200 of them) were wiped out at the end of April '43, at Takrouna, Tunisia.
So, in conclusion:
Add paras in from Jan - Feb '41; take them out between Jan - June '42; remove them from May '43.
Thank you for your attention.
PS: Any of you Eye-Tie CM players out there care to throw in yr two lire worth?
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[sound of rustling papers, turning of pages of Panzertruppen]Originally posted by John Osborne:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rune:
Going to disagree with you John,
On March 24, 1941 against Hitler's explicit orders, Rommel attacked and captured El Agheila with components of the 3rd Reconnaissancee Detachment. They enemy quickly withdrew to Mers Brega, 30 miles to the northeast. This led Rommel to wonder if the Tommies(British equivelent to US GIs) were as formidable as thought.
A little earlier and a bit more west then you thought.
Rune
Scheiße! I stand corrected. You are correct Rune.
Before Rommel left for Germany he planned an assault on El Agheila with the 5 Light Division and on 24 March it was successfully accomplish.
I was doing research on Operation Sonnenblume-1941 and on the Panzer-Regiment 5 and that is when they went into there first battle in North Africa. </font>
re: M 10 GMC Turret Speed
in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps
Posted
Supposedly the counter-weight on the rear of the turret weighed 2500lb's all by itself! Not the sort of thing easily cranked around by hand.