Bil Hardenberger

Warren, in my example above my crew was Veteran... 2nd Platoon's four tanks are composed of two veteran crews and two regular (Tank 3 and Tank 4). In this example I don't think crew quality had much of an impact.

Good questions.. I think I'll let Steve tackle the "under the hood" type stuff as I usually get myself in trouble with those. For number one though I can give a tactically applicable answer. When I approach a position I give the tank a very focused cover arc; in fact I normally do this for the previous waypoint also (as in I give it a cover arc for the same area that the final waypoint will cover).. what this does is require a very short turret rotation in order to line the gun up with whatever target might be on the area of interest. They already have a round in the chamber and an itchy 19 year old finger on the trigger so the first shot is usually pretty quick. I think this is realistic.. if I had given a wider cover arc (say a full half circle as one poster suggested as the best) then the initial engagement time could be another 4, 5, or more seconds longer than the on average 5 seconds from spotting to engagement that I am getting. Also, I do think the focused cover arcs help with spotting. I can't otherwise explain how I can consistently get the drop on Warren's tanks... even when his are stationary and mine moving, like the engagemnet between 2nd Platoon's HQ Tank and the M-10 in turn 11. He should have spotted and fired at 2nd Platoon's HQ Tank before I could get a round off. Did he have a cover arc? I don't think so... his turret was not swinging back and forth like it normally does when a cover arc is assigned (looking for targets in its assigned zone). So in essence his TD was spotting all over the map to the fullest extent of it's spotting ability while mine was focused only on the hilltop where I knew his M4A1 was. Bil

If I had lost Tank 1 in 1st Platoon before taking out any Shermans then I would have been worried. Luckily I don't think Warren's tanks ever did locate this tank. The movement defintely gets them spotted quicker... stationary is better if you don't want to be seen.

Minute 11 Part 2 2nd Platoon 2nd Platoon is moving on line this turn. Tank 4 I am actually going to pull back and reposition... my thought was that I didn’t want it to appear in the same spot two turns in a row. I guess I had Tank 4 too far towards the edge of the woods as immediately upon halting it takes a hit damaging the tracks and optics (shooter unknown, I suspect it was the M4A1). The tank was otherwise fine, but the regular crew decided it would be safer hiding out in the woods. Hopefully I can keep the M4A1 that is on the hill opposite busy long enough that they can re-man the tank before Warren can pump a few more rounds into it and destroy it. Ahead of them on the hill 2nd Platoon can not only see the M4A1 (which did in fact fire the round at Tank 4), but also an M-10. So this is the face off… Warren’s M-10 and M4A1, against two of my tanks, Tank 1 and HQ Tank that can actually oversee this area. Tank 3’s vision is blocked. I lose sight of the M4A1, I think Tank 4 was the only tank that could see it. HQ Tank has eyes on the M-10 and lets fly a round. I would bet there was a crew casualty or two with this hit, but I don’t know for sure. What I do know is that the M-10 was popping smoke and reversing at the end of the turn. I also know that I now have two tanks, Tank 1 and HQ Tank that now have LOS to the M-10. The M-10 is highlighted I this image and you can see that Tank 1 and HQ Tank’s icons are both highlighted indicating LOS to that vehicle. They should each have a good opportunity to take this M-10 out next turn. That M4A1 still worries me though. I can’t see it, and it could still destroy Tank 4 at will. Hopefully Warren hasn’t noticed that the tank isn’t destroyed, just unhorsed. Next: Minute 12

African or European?

You guys are making me sorry I ever mentioned the woods in CMBN.

Minute 11 Part 1 With the loss of the two M4A3’s last turn I think Warren must be rocked back on his heels. The time to start maneuvering against him is now. Still I won’t take many unnecessary chances. I will start moving the Company HQ element up along with 1st Platoon’s Tank 1 to get more guns on where I know his tanks are. 1st Platoon and Company HQ Element CO HQ I am moving up next to Tank 1, HQ 1 will remain in its hulldown position and continue to cover the area outlined in the map below. I doubt Warren will send anything else that way, but better safe than sorry. Tank 1 Tank 1 had an exciting turn. At 49:47 he spots the M4A1 tank (Platoon HQ), and at 49:42 he puts a new viewport through the front hull from 507m. I don’t think the crew liked that too much as they un-assed the vehicle PDQ. In this image you can see that the M4A3(76)W was reversing out of his exposed position (exposed with the loss of the two M4A3s last turn). This is important. I think I can take that as a cue that Warren is no longer going to pursue an advance down AA3 and I can start maneuvering the Company HQ element next turn. Towards the end of the turn Tank 1 spotted the dreaded M4A3(76)W in the spot where it came to a halt (449m from Tank 1). Tank 1 fired and hit twice, the first bounced off the front hull and the second penetrated. By the end of the turn the Sherman 76 was backing away and popping smoke. Same old dance. Next: Minute 11 part 2 (2nd Platoon)

Never been in the military?

Also remember that I use very focused cover arcs when doing recon, or when I know approximately where the enemy should be. This helps my crews stay focused on a small slice of the battlefield and not be checking LOS all over the field... that significantly reduces spotting and hence reaction times. I don't even know if Warern has cover arcs set for any of his tanks, or how wide he sets them if he does, he'd have to answer that. But my point is that there are a lot of factors at play in who gets the first shot off.

Zukkov after the initial contact on turn 2 when did one of my tanks fire on the move? In the part 2 of turn 10 shoot and scoot those two crews are regular.

MINUTE 10 Part 2 2nd Platoon Tank 4 and Tank 3 are the furthest forward and I decide to try and get a little better vision on the area to their front. These two tanks will shoot and scoot forward, see what they can, fire if able, and then withdraw. Armed with any information they uncover I can then make an informed decision on how to commit 2nd Platoon. This is turn 10 of an hour long battle, there is no reason to get hasty at this point. I try to never forget to do my reconnaissance; you must know what you are up against before throwing in your forces. First contact should be with the smallest tactical element possible. In the following image you can see where these tanks started from (the ghosted out tanks in the image) where they moved forward to and the cover arc command I gave to Tank 4. They paused at this forward position for 15 seconds then withdrew back to their starting points. Note: this image was composited in Photoshop, this does not show a game feature: Once forward Tank 4 spots an M4A1 at 50:49 and at 50:44 it fires and hits from 330m. I don’t think my tanks were spotted as they received no return fire. Unfortunately the Sherman seemed unfazed by the fire. So I now know that Warren has at least one Sherman on AA2 and probably more. This is good news for me. It means that Warren has split his force that was on AA3 to prop up his defense on AA2 (could he have only had the two M-10s on this side initially?). Before reversing out of sight, Tank 4 fires a couple of MG bursts at the unbuttoned Sherman. Just exercising the guns I guess. Next: Minute 11

As a side note... numbers were on Warren's side on this flank... I have 3 tanks to his 5 or so.. I am HD and that helped for sure I feel. I haven't received any return fire from any of these Shermans for a long while.. that tells me that his tanks can't locate mine. The excellent hulldown positions and Tank 1's position behind the multiple treelines I feel made it hard for Warren's tanks, moving or stationary, to spot my panzers.

I will post the other half of minute 10 tomorrow at some point.

Sorry, I meant to add those... Tank 1's kill was at 369m HQ 1's kill was at 543m

MINUTE 10 Part 1 This is a pivotal turn, so let’s get right into it: 1st Platoon Tank 1, sitting calmly in its hide position, is hunting. Patiently he waits for his prey, in this case an M4A3 Sherman, to come back into his sights. Two minutes ago he drilled three rounds into the beast’s thick hide before it scampered out of view. Now it slowly lumbers forward again; only this time, the fourth shot to hit it in three minutes stops it in its tracks, and while the crew scampers out of the striken tank the fifth hit sets it ablaze. “Horrido!”, he cries, softly adding “so this gun does work!” Believe me when I say that there was much rejoicing at this result! Company HQ Element From their blocking position the two tanks from the Company HQ element wait for another Sherman to show itself. They know an M4A3 is out there, and they think they know where it is. It isn’t long before HQ 1 catches sight of the Sherman and within seconds puts a round into its hull. Congratulations quickly sound over the Company radio net. At this point I sense the wind starting to turn. Next: Minute 10 Part 2, 2nd Platoon

MINUTE 9 Not a lot occurred during this turn; a 2nd Platoon tank sprayed the infantry contact in the woods with some MG fire. They reported seeing a two man team run off back into the woods at the end of the turn. The only tank from the Sherman Platoon that is still visible is the M4A3(76)W, which has been sitting in the open for a couple of minutes now. I’m not sure exactly what Warren is up to with that tank. So there are four Shermans unaccounted for; two M4A3s (which I know their locations I think, I just can’t see them), and two M4A1s. I have also lost all sight of the remaining two M-10s (one of which I have never seen). This pic is from the end of the ninth minute: Trust me, its going to get exciting again real soon, so hang in there! Next: Minute 10

MINUTE 8 1st Platoon Now that 2nd Platoon is coming on line, I have decided to pull the HQ Tank out of the line this turn. Tank 1 had an encounter with the second M4A3 this turn (remember the other M4A3 was engaged and repelled by the HQ element tanks over the last two turns). He fired and hit it three times (to no noticeable effect again, other than forcing it to withdraw), but I would like you to examine the screenshots below… as the Sherman reverses out of trouble, popping smoke (which they seem to have liberal amounts of) the smoke screen builds… slowly the tank is obscured from view, and finally when the tank looks like it is gone from view Tank 1 pumps one more round through the smoke and into its front hull. Immediately after this hit Tank 1 loses LOS to it. I thought this was interesting because there had been some talk recently about firing into smoke, well in this sequence’s middle image you can see the M4A3 (almost lost to view) barely through the smoke, Tank 1 takes one last shot (bottom pic). This was, as I said, the third hit this turn on the Sherman. Granted this isn’t exactly what some people want, firing into smoke after a unit loses sight of another… but I think it’s a realistic approximation of what the game can do in just that circumstance. This is the only action this turn. 2nd Platoon 2nd Platoon is almost online now and by the end of the turn actually has some eyes on AA2. In this next series of images I wanted to show you the tree toggle in action. In the top image there are actually four tanks, to examine them you can either turn the trees off completely, which to me loses some situational awareness, or you can just toggle on tree trunks (bottom image). In a radius from where the game camera is located the trees will be shown as trunks only, while trees in the distance are still complete. This is my favorite mode when commanding units in woods. CMBN also has heavy woods, or woods that are impassable to vehicles, this is denoted by a change of ground cover at these locations: Next: Minute 9

You guys are going to have to show me in the literature, in English please, where this was common practice. Becasue right now, I don’t believe any of it, at least I doubt tanks offset their hulls to the enemy by 20 degrees or whatever in action. I’ve never read any anecdotes that speak of such a thing, nor can I find reference to this practice in any of the period manuals I have. I don't doubt it's effectiveness, but I do doubt that it was actually practiced in the field. Psychologically alone, if I were a tanker I would want to face the strongest part of my tank towards the enemy guns.. not do some fancy angling thing that also exposed the flank of my hull. In short, prove it to me. Nobody has done that yet. Show it to me in both the German and American literature. I don't care about the Russian, they are not part of the discusson relevant to this AAR. Of course not.. not many engineers commanded tanks (although I'm sure there were some). They saw an enemy tank, they fired at it.. they didn't sit there with their sliderules calculating the angle of offset and the weight of their shell, carrying the one and then subtracting for the head wind, only then deciding they better not fire because they can't penetrate in the current situation.. BS I say, they would just open fire and hope for the best.. if their best wasn't good enough they would get the hell out of the area.

I'm confused, in your estimation for this AAR, which side has a "significantly better tactical advantage"? The Shermans? If so explain that to me using the terrain advantages etc. that they have on their side versus the Pz-IVs. All this talk of angles leaves me cold... do you think a WW2 tank commander actually worrried if his tank was 20 degrees off axis or whatever to an enemy tank? Of course not, he only cared that the strongest part of his tank, the front hull, was facing the enemy... I say get into as good a position with your units as you can, let the steel fly and hope for the best. Things will usually take care of themselves in the long run, but if things do go bad then it doesn't necessarily mean you were outplayed or out maneuvered... often you are only outgunned or outclassed with superior equipment. In almost every case in this particular game that I lost a tank, mine got off the first and sometimes the second shot before getting hit by return fire... that is what I call superior tactical positioning... regardless of the outcome.

By the way a new AAR post is at the bottom of the previous page.

Thanks for the feedback Krilly!

MINUTE 7 This was a fairly quiet turn. 2nd Platoon continues to move up, and for the life of me I don’t remember being so careful with their movement, but when watching the movies again I notice that I am doing overwatch movement whenever there is a potential danger area. It’s possible at this stage while playing that I was still nervous about AA1 and was keeping a careful eye on that area as I advanced. Here is an overview of the current situation. 1st Platoon on the right, with the M4A3 that was fired on at the end of last turn called out, also the location of the M4A3(76)W and of the M-20 wreck. 2nd Platoon is on the left and still moving through the trees as shown. I’ve also called out where Tank 1 saw the infantry movement in the trees. 1st Platoon and Company HQ Element The CO HQ tank fires and hits the M4A3 again after it pops smoke and starts to reverse. The hit didn’t appear to do much damage, but the crew must be shaken as they reverse far out of sight by the end of the turn. At this point, with Warren’s tanks not dying, but at least having their forward progress stopped I can see the flicker of a faint hope. In this image you can just see the turrets of the Company HQ element tanks on the ridge. At the end of the seventh minute Warren has pulled the M4A3(76)W out of the cover provided by its smokescreen and it is just sitting in the open. I assume he is going to bring up the rest of the Sherman Platoon and try to rush my three tanks all together. It could get very interesting in the next couple of minutes. The HQ Tank (1st Platoon) is just a pair of eyes right now, but I think I might pull them out of the line next turn. Here you can see the M4A3(76)W at the end of the turn, along with the M4A3.. this tank reversed all the way from where you can see its smokescreen through the little tree line and finally settled in this position. Next: Minute 8

ShakyJake, I am not a numbers guy, but knowing, as I do, that formulas and data laid out in Rexford's book are exactly what the game is using, I have to trust the results. Thanks for your explanation of Charles' information... all of that number crunching stuff is a bit over my head. Bil

In this battle I don't think the crew quality made that much difference. At sub 500m ranges like here, even a regular gunner should hit a non moving target most times. I think we are seeing that in this game.. Warren has hit with his regular crews with almost every round he has fired... I have missed a few, but only when firing against a moving target. Crew quality might make a difference in spotting and reloading speeds though. In this game against Warren's Sherman Platoon moving up AA3 I have three tanks, two crack and one elite... 2nd Platoon when it comes on line will have two veteran and two regular crews. What's going to be your excuse on that side Warren if your force falls apart?

Minute 6 HQ Element The two tanks from the HQ element get into their hull down positions and immediately start overwatching the area outlined in my last post by the purple arrow. It doesn’t take them long to identify an M-20 coming fast around that copse of trees. HQ 1 (the Company XO’s tank) deliberately takes aim from 536m, fires, and destroys the M-20. In the image below, through the smoke you can just make out 1st Platoon’s Tank1… this is why I was so worried about this approach, Tank 1’s flank is in clear view from where the M-20 sits. You can also just make out the turrets of the HQ element tanks over the ridge in the background. Their fun isn’t over yet however… as the turn winds down HQ 1 spots an M4A3 barreling down AA3. Shown here is HQ 1’s hit from 435m (no noticeable effect) and the hit that CO HQ got a few seconds later from 360m (front turret hit – penetration), again, the M4A3 was still rolling forward at the end of the turn, so it seems the round didn’t have enough energy after penetration to have much effect. These images show the two hits, HQ 1’s on top, and CO HQ on the bottom. The perspective in these views show you the ideal hull down position they are in to catch any Shermans who try to push their luck up AA3. Look for the flashes in the distance, those would be the rounds impacting on the M4A3. 1st Platoon Tank 1 got another hit on the M4A3(76)W from 450m, it was popping smoke and reversing when it was hit. Right on impact I lost LOS to it (that damn smoke again) and didn’t see it the rest of the turn… so I don’t know if I caused any damage or not. HQ Tank fired one round at the moving M4A3(76)W’s flank, which unfortunately went high. It was drawing a bead on an M4A3 when suddenly it was hit from an unseen shooter and the tank lost all weapon controls. Where the hell did that round come from? Damn, and that leaves 1st Platoon with one operational tank. I am still worried about Warren steamrolling up AA3, but with the Company HQ element in place and 1st Platoon's Tank 1 in its excellent position I believe I have a chance to blunt his advance. If he moves up the same route the M-20 took, then he might have a chance to get Tank 1. But then he will have to contend with the Company HQ tanks. I want his full attention on my 1st Platoon and Company HQ tanks while 2nd Platoon is still moving into position. I would like their appearance to be somewhat of a surprise. 2nd Platoon 2nd Platoon was still working its way forward at the end of this turn so saw no action. Next: Minute 7