dima
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Posts posted by dima
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The thing is... does a BMP-3 or a Stryker have a better chance of survival against a threat big enough to need a ATGM or large caliber cannon? The answer is whatever difference they have is so small that it effectively doesn't really matter. So yeah, I'd take an overall more capable infantry carrying vehicle with a .50cal than a less capable one with a larger gun. If a Stryker Rifle Squad has plenty of firepower to deal with the threats it runs up against, with or without the .50cal in support.
Steve
Sure. BMP-3 or Stryker against insurgents in building(s). First RPG round - near miss. Then BMP-3/Stryker starts to fire at a building before the next RPG arrives. Which one will have a better chance to kill the RPG(s) faster.
Second scenario - a column of vehicles travels in mountains. All of a sudden - ambush. RPG's start flying your way. Would you rather fire at enemy in fortified and camouflaged positions with .50 cal or with bigger gun. After all, tanks are used today in Iraq and were used in Afghanistan and all enemy had was RPG's and pickup trucks.
My argument is that when you are against infantry with AT weapons it does matter what kind of gun you have.
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Those are strong words. The infantry got by with a handful of .30(ish) MGs in each platoon for years and never complained about their effectiveness. With a LRF and stabilization, a 50cal Stryker is pretty much a sniper platform on wheels.
Well, it is all relative. 40 years ago accepted casualty rate was a lot higher. These days compared to a 100mm HE round shot at a building with enemy .50 cal isn't that effective at keeping the enemy suppressed.
At least in the game I don't see such effect.
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Lots of good reasons already listed. One can think of the argument about putting heavier weapons on the Stryker IFV than the .50 or Mk19. They experimented with putting a 25mm cannon on it and decided against it for 4 primary reasons:
1. Ammo took up too much space, which is a problem for a vehicle primarily designed to move infantry and their gear around.
2. The vehicle is not intended to do more than provide support fire for its dismounts. If it can't kill something with the .50cal or Mk19 then it should not be in the line of fire. Leave the bigger stuff to the dismounted infantry with Javelins. Much greater chance of coming out on top and at a lower cost.
3. Problems rising from air transport. Weight and bulk of the weapon and ammo.
4. Cost. There is no incentive (believe it or not!) to spend lots of money on a system which already has more cons than pros. I suppose if this system were less expensive than a .50cal or Mk19 they might have given it some thought, but it's much more expensive so it becomes a VERY hard sell.
Those are the top reasons I remember from discussions surrounding the tests conducted (IIRC) in 2004.
Steve
Yeah, but.....
Stryker ICV:
Weights 16.4 tons
Carries 2+9 people
Cannot swim
Has at most 40mm grenade launcher
BMP-3
Weights 18.7 tons
Carries 3+7 people
Can swim
Has 100mm HE gun
30mm cannon
Tube-launched ATGM
BTR-90
Weight 21 tons
Carries 3+7 people
Can swim
Has 30mm cannon
AT-5 ATGM (tandem)
Even in Iraq I'd take 100mm gun of BMP-3 + 30mm cannon to take out insurgents hiding in those stone buildings.
Cost-wise it is cheaper to fire 100mm round than to fire Javelin at a building.
I feel Strykers should have 40mm at a minimum and then an MG if space allows. Stryker with only .50 cal is useless against other IFV's and of little use for infantry support.
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Where they Green or Regular with Low morale? Can you test it with Veteran crew?
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Folks, anyone who visits other wargaming related forums, I suggest you spread the word about CMC becoming opensource. Chances are 2-3 individuals - and that would be enough - with knowledge of programming and time and desire to contribute can finish it and turn it into a game it was aiming to be.
Don't forget what community did with Falcon 4 source code, and that wasn't even legal!
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I like the approach.
But what about Panzershrecks? They aren't different than guns in this regard.
What about mortars? Fast-forward 60 years - what about pesky AT-14 that just took out your M1?
I think area fire overall, both from tanks and small arms (except against buildings) should have artificially reduced lethality effect, which will help with this gamey tactic.
Besides Computer AI never even uses area fire, so this will further help avoid human player cheating the stupid computer.
Only exception - artillery should not be handicapped like this.
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It's one reason why you don't see threads about this like you do for something like Quick Battles or (most recently) trenches.
Steve
I think this is due to human nature. People, and especially CM players, are control freaks, so at least subconsciously they are perfectly fine with not having command delays. Putting them in will move game closer to reality, however there has been good arguments that this is still a game and ultimately it is not intended to fully simulate reality. Which is fine.
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If anyone wants to modify the scenario and replace BMP-1's with BMP-3's it'll be interesting results.
Any volunteers?
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Birdstrike, great scenario, as always. If I can just make a suggestion to make it longer. 1 hour is not enough for carefull assault considering that mosque can't be damaged.
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Alex, about the SHMEL. The thing is, I don't think it makes sense to even have it. Consider this - it is a one-shot weapon. Also thermobaric warhead for RPG's will have the same effect and we have it in the game already.
So if I was a squad leader I'd pick RPG with thermobaric warheads versus SHMEL any day.
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But Marines module also has T-90 and BMP-3. And British module alone won't have them.
So, personally, I don't know what fun is that using 21-st century british equipment against 60-s era BMP's and tanks?
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Alek, Bolt,
Ребята, проверьте личные сообщения - я написал вам.
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Plz check your PM's
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I dont' knwo what kind hassle it would be if player would be given possibility to turn on/off those spotlights. Basically keeping tanks as stelathy as possibly until opening fire and when there is order to open fire they turn their spotlights on to increase their change to see things (as they probably will expose themselves anyway because of muzzleflashes). But it probably would complicate things much.
For the modern US NV equipment - it wouldn't matter if they even covered the tank in dirt - like Gov. Shwarznegger in Predator
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Theoretically U.S. equipment is largely 'hardened' against EMP burst...
Well, the same can be said about Russian vehicles. After all for WW3, it was assumed that russians would be the ones thrusting through Europe to La Manche with NATO tactical nukes exploding left and right and center. So russian equipment also should be immune to EMP (as our instructor in school said). The key word here is - should.
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2)
There is no device of night sight in a box of stock at T-62
Implicitly possibility of night sight can be made, but I could not see situation Abrams tanks on a distance of 850 metres in a current 5 min
So just because tank can't see past 850 meters it doesn't mean it doesn't have NV? Not all NV's have the same great capabilities. Some will let you see out to 500m or less. You'll need to run some more tests to see how far it can see. And you'll need to do it for each different type of T-62.
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SIMILAR SPOILERS
The enemy in this mission is Conscript and it's at night. They have very rare opportunities to a) see you and
not be suppressed. The real trick is to take the compounds with minor casualties.Oh, I did that
But I found it funny that they weren't even facing in my direction while I was massacring them. -
Started to play the campaing.
SPOILER ALERT
I notice that in the first mission the enemy in trench does not return fire, they don't even face in my direction even though their solders are dropping like flies. Anyone find this weird?
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to dima: Georgians were forced to do something against their own will - just my opinion
What sane leader would order his troops to abandon tanks and leave them in a perfectly good working order? How long does it take to set the tank of fire?
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Georgia did not protect the own land - has attacked Ossetia
The fact Ossetins lived separately from 1991 - operates the Political and demographic parties we will not discuss, I think
1) Georgians were proffesional army! To me have told here - that it very well, much better the consript army
However I wrote - not very well - professional army or conscript. The important thing a field level and a command level .
2) Georgians had:
- very good small arms - the western part (include M-4 Rifle, NEGEV MG, BArret sniper rifle)
- very good modernisation T-72-SIM-1 - by western science and indastrial
- very good signal systems - the western part
- very good system support artillery, and AD system (s modern warfare - BUK AD System and Spider AD System it was not used at war earlier)
Come on any Georgian military site - you will see gallant army, it looks not worse the American. Courageous faces, the good uniform, beautiful equipment.
Russian army had old Ak-74, old D-30 2S3, old system support artillery and old signal systems, old T-72 and T-62, the aircraft was very weak
there was no total superiority anywhere - there is equality a maximum
Tthe Result?
Really much defeats at the Georgian - instead of at Russian.
I have told here - important not the technical weapon. Command and a field skill is important. Really Ossetia war has not shown right part of this?
Ok,r eally Syria is bad - operative level bad.
But level SMSF will not be here operative.
Syria tactical level bad - but the player can do tactics here itself.
SMSF is a tactical range, for example Hearts of Iron-2 - an operative range.
What I offer?
will speak about tactical and command details of a small range basically here, and at forum HOI2 - to discuss operative level and disscuss at history of the Arabs wars.
Alek, dude, you wrote this great essay but you still did not answer my question. What makes you think Syria will fight any better then Georgia did after Russian troops went across the border and went all the way to Poti? Or do you think Georgian tankers were really eager to fight but their high command ordered - "exit your tanks, leave them intact for the enemy to steal and run for your life!"
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Just a save file is all we need.
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Alek, what makes you think Syrians will fight better than Georgians did in August of 2008? After all, Georgians were also protecting their land! And they were trained by US consultants for the last couple of years. And (wait for it!) georgian T-72 SIM-1 is actually a better equipped tank than any russian tank that went into Georgia. But as soon as russians crossed the border - georgian tankers simply climbed out of their tanks and fled. They Didn't even destroy their tanks, I am sure you are aware of all those trophies russians got.
What makes you think syrians, when facing US Army (and let's be honest, I'd worry even more about facing US Army than Russians) would not do the same?
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Yes, guys, don't confuse this behavior with "Run for your Life". They are not panicking, they are not Broken. They simply feel that to stay in that position is suicidal. Sure, you, as a player may think it isn't but these virtual solders still value their lives. After all, you are sitting in a comfy chair, looking at a brand new 24" LCD and drinking beer, while they, in their universe are being shot at. And it doesn't matter if they are Cracks. If you don't protect your men, if your order them to assault unsuppressed building with lots of AK-47's inside, it doesn't matter what experience your men are - 7.62 bullets will penetrate conscripts just as well as Elite troops.
We have tweaked this behavior during 1.11 beta testing many times and what we've got now feels like just the right balance.
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Bolt,
The details you posted on arty are exactly what we need! Thank you!
Alek, the above information provided by Bolt is a great example of the level of detail we need. Clear, concise, with hard numbers.
not be suppressed. The real trick is to take the compounds with minor casualties.
Why do most IFVs lack ATGMs?
in Combat Mission Shock Force 1
Posted
Let's compare apples to apples. Compare Bradley with BMP-3 not the ancient BMP-1/2. It's the same as saying that 30 year old man will kick the ass of a 70 year old men.
You can do a test in game - set up 5 BMP-3 vs 5 Bradley's and see the results.