Colonel_Klink Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 Well, that's what you silly people get for running FSAA. You people and your fancy graphics. It looks fine without it, really. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinard Posted July 9, 2001 Author Share Posted July 9, 2001 Hey Col Klink, are you in wwiionline? I wasa trying to recruit a Col Klink in wwiionline... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel_Klink Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 Well, I'm in WWII Online, yes. But I play as Nesborn, not Colonel Klink. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jpinard: Come on Rune... Blaming drivers for video problems on a game not even released? That's pathetic. And by the way WWII Fighters AND every version of Falcon 4 (most importnatly eFalcon) work perfectly for me. Both with no FSAA and with FSAA. NO video card has 100% compatability on the PC, but NVidia's cards come closer than any other video card in PC Gaming history. I do believe that should count for something - don't you think??? As far as these titles "xfree86 -problems with nvidia drivers Microsoft Baseball online- problems with nvidia drivers Virtual Sailor 3- Problems with nvidia drivers Waterrace- Problem with nvidia drivers" looks like your really groping... AND, Who gives a crap about MS Baseball or Virtual Sailer??? Waterrace?? Can you say inexperienced developer?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jpinard, my Dell has an NVidia card and I have stopped playing any games at all on it, since the drivers never work right. Oddly enough, my Power Mac at work has two video cards, an ATI Radeon and an NVidea GeForce 3. The Radeon is rock stable, the GeForce is better than in the Dell PC (which blows chunks in most ways, maybe it was made on a bad day) but the Nvidia is still not as stable. With my PC, I found that reinstalling the OS every couple of months really helped graphics performance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel_Klink Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 It's the funniest thing really. I've never really had any problems with any of Nvidia's driver sets, from when I had my MX to now with my GTS. I recently changed to 12.41 and it's as stable and a little faster than the 6.50's for me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 Let's see....if I have the game and the documentation from Gas powered games, and it's publisher Microsoft...maybe I know something you don't? Yes, Microsoft can't program at all, after all it is only their operating system. I also have had Windows XP too, and have the same problem with the fsaa. Oh wait, it isn't out either, so guess I don't know that either. Bottom Line: You said no other game is having the problem, I proved others are. Microsoft says Windows 2000 is NOT a gaming platform. Let us put the blame where it should lie, and not on BTS. The problem still exists on Directx 8.1. Oh wait, it just went public beta. But I have had it for months...hmm... Claiming the other publishers are nobodies is a cop out. How many forums you want me to post with people having problems? Yeah half-life counter-strike is a minor one too. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinard Posted July 9, 2001 Author Share Posted July 9, 2001 Come on Rune, read what I was atually SAYING. The titles mentioned as being "not yet released"... They are not released for a reason buddy... They still need to be programmed and bug-fixed. Also, did you not realize that MS does not "develop" its games, it has developers program games. MS simply publishes them. Any idiot would know that if a game was ready for prime-time it'd be released, due to financial constraints of game companies. Oh WAIT!! Most games are released in BETA state these days. Hmmm Rune, do you remember a game called Crimson Skies??? An MS "published" game. Yes, that game was in such poor state upon release it overwrote your saved games when you played on-line. Just one of a hundred bugs. So your argument for an MS published game (MS knows what it's doing, it's NVdidia's fault...as you stated)having problems with NVidia drivers holds ZERO weight. Like I said, you're groping. I bet the people having trouble with their computers (and blaming NVidia) actually have anti-vuris software, Norton tools, emergency recovery software etc... All these programs creat major problems for games, plus they are resource hogs. [ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: jpinard ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jpinard: Come on Rune, read what I was atually SAYING. The titles mentioned as being "not yet released"... They are not released for a reason buddy... They still need to be programmed and bug-fixed. Also, did you not realize that MS does not "develop" its games, it has developers program games. MS simply publishes them. Any idiot would know that if a game was ready for prime-time it'd be released, due to financial constraints of game companies. Oh WAIT!! Most games are released in BETA state these days. Hmmm Rune, do you remember a game called Crimson Skies??? An MS "published" game. Yes, that game was in such poor state upon release it overwrote your saved games when you played on-line. Just one of a hundred bugs. So your argument for an MS published game (MS knows what it's doing, it's NVdidia's fault...as you stated)having problems with NVidia drivers holds ZERO weight. Like I said, you're groping. I bet the people having trouble with their computers (and blaming NVidia) actually have anti-vuris software, Norton tools, emergency recovery software etc... All these programs creat major problems for games, plus they are resource hogs. [ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: jpinard ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, my Dell has a virus on it..... It is called Window ME! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 Thanks, jpinard, I am glad I am not the only one who looks at things sober. And, Rune, would you please kindly describe what problems are there with other games ? In particular what about Falcon 4 ? I am playing it with 12.40 WHQL without any problem and so are hundreds of other users. It is easy to blame nVidia and moderate Peng threads instead of trying to fix the issue (hint !) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinard Posted July 10, 2001 Author Share Posted July 10, 2001 on WinME... did you disable the autobackup and backup reovery modes? They are terrible resource hogs and slow the system down every 15 minutes. That's why I went back to Win98se, but disabling those features does help bring Win ME a little closer to the resource state of Win98se. If you need help let me know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 Let's see. Do I do what MS does. Hmm, appearently not, as I only have been beta testing for them since windows 3.1. They only publish you say. Gee, if you talk to any of the developers, they seem to do more then that. Oh that's right, you know more about it then someone ACTUALLY doing the testing, and/or is working WITH the developers. As for Crimson Skies, you don't know the story behind what happened, and I cannot disclose due to NDA. As for Beta testing, one of the cool things is the developer sends out a list of known bugs. hey look, same problem as CM. You are right however, I am grasping. As for MS being right, if you knew anything about their operating system, you should know that windows 2000 released with over 1000 known bugs. So saying they wrote the operating system is sarcasm. My fault, on that I could of been clearer. As for the issues I have read on the forums with the 12.90 version of drivers, is spots appearing on the screen in Falcon. Users have recommended going back to the 12.40 dima, here is a hint to you, there is one person coding the game. Someone moderating the Peng thread has no impact on anything. As for the other issues of course it is possible, it could be voltages from the motherboards, ala the k7 motherboards, it could be additional software, it could be users did NOT completely take out the drivers and reset to vga BEFORE upgrading. It could be that the fsaa worked before and now with newer drivers it doesn't. It could be a cross between MS directx and nvidia drivers. It could be trying to fix something that is constantly changing is a waste of time. It could be that the agp 4X isn't working right with NT2000, and SP2 came out. It could be that fixing it and then nvidia changes something meaning it would have to be re-coded AGAIN. It could be that Microsoft states clearly that NT 2000 is NOT a gaming platform. All of these point away from saying it is the game. Personally, i have asked some people I deal with if they find what the issue is on another game to let me know and I will let Charles know. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jpinard: Come on Rune, read what I was atually SAYING. The titles mentioned as being "not yet released"... They are not released for a reason buddy... They still need to be programmed and bug-fixed. Also, did you not realize that MS does not "develop" its games, it has developers program games. MS simply publishes them. Any idiot would know that if a game was ready for prime-time it'd be released, due to financial constraints of game companies. Oh WAIT!! Most games are released in BETA state these days. Hmmm Rune, do you remember a game called Crimson Skies??? An MS "published" game. Yes, that game was in such poor state upon release it overwrote your saved games when you played on-line. Just one of a hundred bugs. So your argument for an MS published game (MS knows what it's doing, it's NVdidia's fault...as you stated)having problems with NVidia drivers holds ZERO weight. Like I said, you're groping. I bet the people having trouble with their computers (and blaming NVidia) actually have anti-vuris software, Norton tools, emergency recovery software etc... All these programs creat major problems for games, plus they are resource hogs. [ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: jpinard ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 So how come 12.40 work perfectly in other games as well as Falcon, but not in CM ? And what do you know about operating systems ? Name one, which has the same number of lines of code as Win2000 which has less bugs ? 12.40 are WHQL certified. If CM doesn't work with them, then BTS needs to clearly specify that CM doesn't work on Microsoft Platform. BTS, this whole thing is getting ridiculous, please either fix the problem or make a public statement. Or does Rune speak on your behalf ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 Wrong question.. Why does it work with 12.40 and NOT with a newer version 12.90? Why are other games broken with 12.40? What do I know about operating systems? Gee, I work with NT for a living, supporting it, 2000 and soon XP along with sql server. What operating system has just as much code and is more stable? Take a look at OS X. Hmm...Linux maybe? Why should they say it doesn't work with Windows 2000, when it just doesn't work with fsaa of a newer version of driver with one brand of video card? Remember, and you ignore this point, it worked with an older version of the drivers. I don't speak for them. However Matt did and you still ignored it. I still think it is something between Directx and the drivers, and at least I am trying to get it resolved, not just lipping off. I will forward what I find when I hear from the developer. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinard Posted July 10, 2001 Author Share Posted July 10, 2001 Man Rune, you sure are full of yourself. It's almost enough to make me want to puke. Before I became permanently disabled because of my Cystic Fibrosis, I was a remote technology engineer / OS engineer for the largest Energy Compnay in the Midwest. So, you pulling this NDA and beta testing crap is like telling NASA since you know how to fly model rockets you know better than them how to fly to Mars. Geez, if you ONLY knew. Anyways, the 12.90 drivers are BETA, lets not forget that. They are leaked betas of course, not all betas are official NVidia property. You use them at your own risk. In addition, many leaked drivers are fakes. I'm not saying 12.90's are fakes, but wake up. OK, in case you couldn't read into what I was saying above... the extremely short list of companies I've beta tested, and helped with engineering: Microsoft, Novell, Cisco, IBM. Those are just the small players So Rune, I know you must think you're so awesome because you beta test stuff for MS, BUT, you're only one MANY, MANY thousands of people. I don't give a crap about Crimson Skies NDA or why they released a broken product. I'm sure it's a timedate developer vs. the big mean Publisher thing. Excusing Crimson Skies as an MS product with a botched release, and you claiming there's a legitmate reason and citing NDA... That's something I'd expect to hear from a small player who wished they were more. OK, so have we beaten that enough?! There is a problem with Combat Mission with mature NVidia drivers with FSAA enabled. I realize BTS is working hard on CM2, I respect that. But if the problem exists here, it sounds like it may exists in CM2, and I'll be pissed if BTS is already ramping up excuses as to why things don't work right. I love CM, if I didn't I wouldn't waste my valuable time here. I know Charles is a brilliant programmer and has too much work to do himself, but he somehow manages. I like Charles, I always have, but running from a problem is not the answer. Like I said, if this issue cropped up with an ATI card, a 3Dfx card, a PowerVR card, an S3 card - I WOULD understand. But we are talking the industry leader...the 3d market pioneers. I don't expect Charles to jump and tackle this to the exclusion of everything else, but I do expect more from BTS - more than blaming the other guy. I thought BTS was better than that. It's the little twirps like me who told all their friends to buy CM, that help make a little tiny difference for a company that deserves success - and has now cahieved more than they had ever hoped for in their initial release. I don't even expect BTS to solve this problem right away, but I do expect to hear them say - we're not running from it, we're not blaming other people, we will not have this problem in CM2, and MAYBE - we'll even fix this in CM1. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinard Posted July 10, 2001 Author Share Posted July 10, 2001 Oops sorry, I missed your last sentence abot trying to help. That's nice. Anyways I can tell you guys DEFINITIVELY. With Win98SE, it is not a directx related problem, nor is it software clash compatability, nor is it the motherboard, nor is it VIA problems, nor is it AGP 4x, nor is it fast writes. It IS a problem between the BTS code and all driver reveisions (beta, whql, and official) since the 6.5 drivers. I have done al the hard work for you guys. I have done all the testing, removinig everything by painstaking process of elimination. Yes, I like the game that much I'd spend days testig to find the probelm. My fear intially was it was my system. I tried to replicate it in every game I have (I have over 150 games), and never could... Only in CM. I have the following: AMD 1.33 Gig Asus A7V Motherboard 512 Meg PC133 (Crucial) SBLive (original, not value) 3 ATA100 hard drives of 30 Gig each Pioneer 16x DVD GeForce 2 Ultra Sony 19" Multiscan G400 3 4-port USB Hubs for peripherals. etc. etc. Clean system of course and Win98 SE Everything up-to-date (including Via drivers, BIOS code, Promise ATA100 controllers, etc. etc.) and NO BETA Drivers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jpinard: on WinME... did you disable the autobackup and backup reovery modes? They are terrible resource hogs and slow the system down every 15 minutes. That's why I went back to Win98se, but disabling those features does help bring Win ME a little closer to the resource state of Win98se. If you need help let me know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, we worked with the thing for a while. Turns out that it slowly starts killing my games as it runs longer. A clean install of the system to hard drive brings it back for a couple of weeks, then it looses it again. I have learned not to install mew software on it, I just run the basics, but I finally switched to the Power Mac version of CM and it runs fine. Two companies I work for erase their PCs and rebuild the OS every 60 days, which is what I now do with mine. In the past two years I have been throwing more and more work onto my Mac, and the Department of Justice were I work is starting to convert from Windows NT to Macintosh for mission critical work anyway (not office work, it is still NT) so loosing my Dell is not usch a big deal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jpinard: Oops sorry, I missed your last sentence abot trying to help. That's nice. Anyways I can tell you guys DEFINITIVELY. With Win98SE, it is not a directx related problem, nor is it software clash compatability, nor is it the motherboard, nor is it VIA problems, nor is it AGP 4x, nor is it fast writes. It IS a problem between the BTS code and all driver reveisions (beta, whql, and official) since the 6.5 drivers. I have done al the hard work for you guys. I have done all the testing, removinig everything by painstaking process of elimination. Yes, I like the game that much I'd spend days testig to find the probelm. My fear intially was it was my system. I tried to replicate it in every game I have (I have over 150 games), and never could... Only in CM. I have the following: AMD 1.33 Gig Asus A7V Motherboard 512 Meg PC133 (Crucial) SBLive (original, not value) 3 ATA100 hard drives of 30 Gig each Pioneer 16x DVD GeForce 2 Ultra Sony 19" Multiscan G400 3 4-port USB Hubs for peripherals. etc. etc. Clean system of course and Win98 SE Everything up-to-date (including Via drivers, BIOS code, Promise ATA100 controllers, etc. etc.) and NO BETA Drivers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> J, you will blow up for me saying this, but I have spotted two possible problems that other systems I know about have. The first is that some ATA-100 controllers do not like odd numbers of drives with Win 9x. They like 1, 2, or 4. Don't ask me why, it was just something tech support where I work discovered wgile we were upgrading from Windows NT to 98. The second thing was that some makers of NVidia cards did not provide up to date firmware for the cards we had, causing some graphics programs to hurl. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 I think that it is unreasonable to expect that BTS should change their code because one video chip manufacturer (albeit the current market leader) has released drivers that cause a particular problem (most prominently in one particular OS) when a certain feature of the drivers is enabled. NVidia has decided that a particular short-cut in their driver code is a legitimate sacrafice for performance (and there are "sacrafices" for those performance increases) since there are only so many DirectX routines that would be affected or become dysfunctional because of it. It just so happens that CM uses some of those routines for text display and scaling (and not many other games do - I guess). CM uses far more text on screen than most other games on the market. In order to simplify management and speed up display BTS chose to use bitmapped text in a particular fashion. Those bitmaps are getting trashed by NVidia's FSAA routines which are treating the entire text bitmap and messing up CM's text display routines. I guess CM will just have to call up bitmapped/scalable text from the OS rather than use its own bitmapped text. No scaling of text in the 3D screens either - its one size and non-rotating. Or just non-existing. So in order to please the NVidia FSAA addicts BTS will need to change all of the text code in CM - the interface will now need to take up more of the screen to accomodate NVidia's "shortcomings" in FSAA functionality by creating larger areas for the text to be drawn as graphics - using up more video memory and slowing down the display. Yes, I don't know any of the code that Charles is using in CM or what would be required to "fix" this problem. My Worst Case Scenario above could quite probably be hyperbole. But how often should BTS make changes to the code to "accomodate" other manufacturers ? While the problems a number of players are having with TCP/IP games are legitimate, I think the NVidia issue is one that pushes the envelope of what the public can legitimately expect of a developer. Maybe Charles will find a work-around, but I'd guess that he would most likely have to completely scrap the current text system in CM for something else; and that is going to require quite a bit of work. [ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 Last post on this. I am full of myself? Ok whatever. I didn't list all my certifications cause paper mcses are a dime a dozen. I have all those you have plus hp sniffers, some cisco routers and more. Umm, oh yeah, I have beta tested for at least 25 companes in the past year. A lot more if you go back. I have hardware certifications from IBM, Compaq. Toshiba. etc etc. This just turns into a pissing contest, no one out there cares what we got..but I don't make statements about you without facts. Matter of fact, didn't attack you at all. i never ever said there was a legit reason for Crimson Skies. I said I can't discuss it and I can't. The problem exists with 12.40 and Windows ME and also with Windows XP and Windows 2000. I can go back to older drivers and the problem goes away. I am trying to find out what they changed from 6.50 to 7.17. Yes, you skipped the part where I said I am trying to find out the fix that someone else hopefully will use. He is correct, it has to do with the bmps and the fsaa. However, with the directx 8.1, at least in windows ME the problem got worse. It is why I think directx still has something to do with it. Or it might wind up a bug in directx, but like you, i don't get it in any other game. If I find something, I will post here. Hmm, i did find a note on a problem with Asus cards, but I don't have one of those. So i continue my search... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinard Posted July 10, 2001 Author Share Posted July 10, 2001 Schrullenhaft: I hate to say this but you're wrong. Look at ALL the MMORPG's out there. I can run Ultima On-Line, Anarchy On-Line, and WWII On-Line with FSAA enabled and ZERO problems. Why do you people have such a hard time admitting the probelm is with CM? AN On-Line, 3D, MMORG CERTAINALY has more to worry about with floating text, PLUS extra text at the bottom of the screen, optimizing 3D output, and MOST of all streamlined code for running on-line. DON'T tell me it's NVidia's fault or make excuses for CM. If it really were such a critical issue with NVidia's drivers, we'd would ABSOLUTELY see it in these games as well. Not to mention the ten thousand other games available. My question... Does Charles program CM in Mac first, and then go do code for the PC later? [ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: jpinard ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinard Posted July 10, 2001 Author Share Posted July 10, 2001 OK nice post Rune, what do you mean by a problem with Asus video cards? Asus makes GeForce cards, and this problem is with all GeForce cards... Whether made by Creative Labs (mine), Hercules, Visiontek, Elsa, generic beneric, or ASUS... Also, I REALLY don't think it has anything to do wth Directx. If it did you'd see the exact same problem on the ATI Radeon, Power VR, Matrox G's etc. I haven't heard this kind of thing reported with them with FSAA enabled. In a perfect world, with perfect drivers amoungst all cards with perfect incorporation with Directx, you'd see the same fault on all cards running directx 8 if that was to blame. But like I said, you'd seem the same defect in other games that have floating text mixed with 3D, and it simply doesn't exsist. Unfortunately everything points to the code for CM. Yes, it dd work OK with the 6.50 drivers, but those old drivers are stone-age now. The performance and visual quality difference has leaped with each set of "working" drivers: After 6.50: 7.58 10.80 11.01 and now 12.41 Visual quality has increased, speed in directx8 has increased. Going back to v6.50 drivers would be like replacing my GeForce2 Ultra with a slower, crappier video card. I just cannot impress upon you, if you look at ALL the evidence, and especially other genre games (albeit even these with MASSIVE problems like WWII On-Line) which SHOULD pose the same problem if it really were an NVidia or Directx problem, they don't. Rune, have you played WWII On-Line? If so, you'd see what I mean how that game would post the same mottled text as CM does, but it doesn't. And once again, that game is buggy as hell. I just don't think you guys should waste your time since it's going to lead you to the same conclusion and evidence I've already provided you with. I'm also curious... With the early build of CM2, if it has the same problem with FSAA on NVidia cards. Would you aks Charles for us? [ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: jpinard ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 I had the problem with a TNT2 card. After I changed one setting from "isotropic"(sp?) to "bilinear" the problem was solved. Have to check this at home. Regarding drivers: I'll NEVER ever again install any "reference"-drivers from Nvidia. Buggy as hell. Lindan 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinard Posted July 10, 2001 Author Share Posted July 10, 2001 Lindan, newer drivers are buggy for you becasue you have an older card. Every new driver set has features added that your card simply cannot do. Time to upgrade 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Rudd Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 My 2 cents are on the 12.41 drivers. With out them, using the 6.50s, things are fine. Put the 12.41s back on, run FSAA, CM text is hosed, the tool bar in Anarchy Online is messed up, I loose about 35-45 fps in Q3A mods, same for UT. Plus side is, games run much faster with the 12.41s. P3-933FC, Asus CUSL2, 512megs ram, SBLive, Elsa GF2U. Nothing over clocked. And reading through the different news groups, many people have had nothing but problems with the 12.41s. Later. Doug 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinard Posted July 10, 2001 Author Share Posted July 10, 2001 Hmmm, my toolbar is fine in AO with FSAA on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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