Animal_Mother Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Hey guys Haven't posted for a long time, been too busy playing this awesome game--seriously, every other WW2 game I've tried (mostly FPS) is full of poor design decisions giving in to the mainstream gamer, but not CMBN. Great job guys, your efforts are appreciated. I'm posting now because something really weird happened & I want to make sure it wasn't a bug. Anyone here ever seen a PSW222 destroy a Sherman? It was in a QB I was playing--night mission, point blank fire (maybe 15-25 meters) on the Shermans left side, of course with 20mm. Anyway the Sherman exploded, probably the ammo storage was hit. Unfortunately I didn't think to save the turn, but maybe you could set up a test scenario? I'm thinking the Sherman was an M4. Just thought you guys might like to know about that, and thanks from a very satisfied customer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Going by the CMx1 figures, its a 51mm turret side, at 85% quality, so equivalent ~43mm. The 20mm AP goes in at 32mm at 100m, I doubt that would go up at any less distance, but maybe. Anyway it sounds like it is approaching being a marginal pen, but sounds a bit of a long shot. Maybe a weak spot? I don't think weakening of armour after a hit is modelled, but with the above figures I can easily believe a burst of 3-4 20mm AP rounds would damage and penetrate. Edit: I notice you didn't specify turret, the hull sides are only 38mm*0.85=~32mm, so easily possible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 "c'est la guerre" I would say. looking at the dynamics of the 20 mm KwK 30 firing Pzgr 40 at 1,050 m/s penetrating 40-49mm (sources differ, although 40mm is mentioned more) at 100m. Penetration of 38mm side armor for the M4 with a burst seems reasonable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltM Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 "c'est la guerre" I would say. looking at the dynamics of the 20 mm KwK 30 firing Pzgr 40 at 1,050 m/s penetrating 40-49mm (sources differ, although 40mm is mentioned more) at 100m. Penetration of 38mm side armor for the M4 with a burst seems reasonable. True enough......but did they have any ? Pzgr40 was a tungsten core round which most sources say Germany was almost out of post 1943 as no source for Tungsten was available. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 True enough......but did they have any ? Pzgr40 was a tungsten core round which most sources say Germany was almost out of post 1943 as no source for Tungsten was available. Pz Gr 39 penetrated 20mm@100m. No idea if 38mm can be penetrated with a burst. Didn't they have a steel core Pz.Gr. later in the war? Not as good as tungsten, but better than Pz.Gr. 39? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Just found a source which says, that Pz.Gr.40 was still produced in Dec 43 and that data for 1944/45 is simply missing. Although they write primarily about larger calibres. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal_Mother Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Going by the CMx1 figures, its a 51mm turret side, at 85% quality, so equivalent ~43mm. The 20mm AP goes in at 32mm at 100m, I doubt that would go up at any less distance, but maybe. Anyway it sounds like it is approaching being a marginal pen, but sounds a bit of a long shot. Maybe a weak spot? I don't think weakening of armour after a hit is modelled, but with the above figures I can easily believe a burst of 3-4 20mm AP rounds would damage and penetrate. Edit: I notice you didn't specify turret, the hull sides are only 38mm*0.85=~32mm, so easily possible. No, it didn't hit the turret; left side almost perpendicular to the tank, about 2/3 of the way front to back. Is there not a way to tell what round is being used? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 You can see what rounds are counting down while your AC is firing. But even with a regular AP round you are going into pretty thin armour at 0 deg. The figures used in the previous CM games call that a marginal penetration and I can't see why CMBN would be too different. It's also going right into the engine or fuel tank if does penetrate. IOW it is not so unlikely as to be suspicious. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 well even the m4a3 sherman (most advanced sherman tank in that timeframe) has 38mm@0° of side hull armor. when you additionally take into account what animal mother hast stated (85% armor quality: 32,3mm) then it`s not that hard for that 20mm cannon at point blank range to penetrate the shermans side armor. according to cm1 modelling the 20mm ap shell has like it was already said 32mm at 100m penetration capability. so you do not need any pzgr40 to penetrate the side with a 20mm cannon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 well even the m4a3 sherman (most advanced sherman tank in that timeframe) has 38mm@0° of side hull armor. when you additionally take into account what animal mother hast stated (85% armor quality: 32,3mm) then it`s not that hard for that 20mm cannon at point blank range to penetrate the shermans side armor. according to cm1 modelling the 20mm ap shell has like it was already said 32mm at 100m penetration capability. so you do not need any pzgr40 to penetrate the side with a 20mm cannon. perfect - no troubles with the tungsten story. BTW up to early 44 it seems that tungsten was being delivered in decent amounts by Portugal and Spain. In early 44 Allied pressure on Spain reduced this source quite a bit (officially at least). Only after the retreat from France in August both sources dried up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal_Mother Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Well that's good then, definitely not a bug. Sure surprised the h*** out of me though. Been playing CM since CMAK first came out and never seen that happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Well I has a suprise yesterday, a PzIV poppod out of nowhere, on of my GIs launched a rifle grenade at it, penetrated and made the crew bail, the crew was destroyed, but that didnt stop the rest of my platoon launching some 6 bazooka rounds and the rest of its rifle grenades at its side armour. Still the panzer did not apear "knocked out", took a 75mm HEAT M8 HMC round to finish it off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Still the panzer did not apear "knocked out", took a 75mm HEAT M8 HMC round to finish it off. I think the key word hear is "appear". The status of enemy assets is subject to FoW, and it's entirely possible your GroPos were simply unaware (or unconvinced) of the vehicle's inoperability, only being satisfied of its destruction when a bigger gun made it go "boom". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I think the key word hear is "appear". The status of enemy assets is subject to FoW, and it's entirely possible your GroPos were simply unaware (or unconvinced) of the vehicle's inoperability, only being satisfied of its destruction when a bigger gun made it go "boom". oh yeah ofcourse I knew it was out of action, its just my men seemed to not realise or just wanted to make sure. seen it happen plenty of times in CMSF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I think the key word hear is "appear". The status of enemy assets is subject to FoW, and it's entirely possible your GroPos were simply unaware (or unconvinced) of the vehicle's inoperability, only being satisfied of its destruction when a bigger gun made it go "boom". FoW shouldn't really apply when you see the crew bail though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Kleist Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 FoW shouldn't really apply when you see the crew bail though. I believe it should, lest the crew come back later and re-occupy the vehicle. I think I'd kick myself if that happened, since last thing I'd want is a panzer IV rampaging through my truck convoy full of ammuinition. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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