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Georgie

General OOM Issues

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quote by Phil Culliton.

"I would like to note here that the bug reported in this thread, the one I have claimed to fix, has been confirmed as fixed. General out of memory issues are being discussed here now, but NOWHERE have I claimed to have "fixed" them. THIS THREAD IS NOT *ABOUT* GENERAL OOM ISSUES, IT IS ABOUT A WEGO BUG THAT HAS BEEN FIXED. If you really want to bring up general OOM issues as a bug and claim all of my responses as germane to the topic, please start a new thread."end quote

As per Phils request here is the new thread on the General OOM Issue. Hopefully all of those players who would like to see this problem resolved will visit this thread and express their concern, dismay, and suggestions

If the Mac version does not have this problem and the reason is because it is a 64bit version then would it be feasible for BF to make a 64bit PC version? Is making a 64bit version the only solution to this problem?

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quote by Phil Culliton.

"I would like to note here that the bug reported in this thread, the one I have claimed to fix, has been confirmed as fixed. General out of memory issues are being discussed here now, but NOWHERE have I claimed to have "fixed" them. THIS THREAD IS NOT *ABOUT* GENERAL OOM ISSUES, IT IS ABOUT A WEGO BUG THAT HAS BEEN FIXED. If you really want to bring up general OOM issues as a bug and claim all of my responses as germane to the topic, please start a new thread."end quote

As per Phils request here is the new thread on the General OOM Issue. Hopefully all of those players who would like to see this problem resolved will visit this thread and express their concern, dismay, and suggestions

If the Mac version does not have this problem and the reason is because it is a 64bit version then would it be feasible for BF to make a 64bit PC version? Is making a 64bit version the only solution to this problem?

I'm with you Georgie

I would like to see if it can be updated to 64bit for the PC version

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Hello Phil Culliton, two questions. Is the OOM problem that we are having now due to a finite limitation of the engine itself? If that is the case what can and what will BF due to correct it? Take your time on the answer to the second question as BF is probably trying to figure that out rite now.

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Reposted from previous thread:

Phil, a couple questions:

1) How is it that texture size/quality and 3d model detail have (in all the testing I've done) zero effect on a memory limit problem? I'm scratching my head as to how that could not be the dominant issue, much less zero difference.

2) When I hit out of memory, it's always on saving. And then when I go back and try to reload, I always have to go back like 10 turns to find a file that will load. If I was just hitting a memory limit, how could I have played through all those turns but be unable to load the save game for that turn?

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I moved this post over from the first OOM thread since it has to do with this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwolf

"Do NOT go out and buy more RAM. As long as you have enough swapspace it doesn't matter for out of memory conditions.

I don't know why Phil is so fuzzy about detail, I really don't want you to waste your money here."

Hello Redwolf, thanks for the tip. I increased the swap space on my new PC to 24000 meg which is three times the RAM that is installed. Is that enough? Its useless to try to play a large scenario on my older PC and its pretty good, 2.4gig processor and 2gig RAM,4000meg swap space(maxed out) and a Geforce 7600 GT which is in the middle of the required specs. Hopefully Phil will be able to give us a new set of recommended specs and an approximate max size for a scenario. I like to make large maps and am going to try my hand with scenarios but the first warning when it gets too big is an OOM error. It seems reasonable to me that the game should be able to play any size scenario that the CMBN editor is capable of producing. If I remember correctly you could only add up to a max amount of troops and vehicles in the CMX 1 editor and then it wouldn't add any more. Maybe the max size that the CMBN editor is capable of producing will have to be limited in a future patch.

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OK, I think everybody needs to take a step back here and we need to list the different issues we have. As far as I can see there are three separate issues:

1) a out of graphic card memory conditions triggered by loading a specific scenario into the editor. You will get a dialog box saying so.

2) a WEGO (or PBEM?) issue that was fixed in 1.01 that was overrunning virtual memory. This one might or might not have been a leak. If this happens the game just exits.

3) a generic out of memory condition when playing large scenarios, also running out of virtual memory, not fixed, and as far as I can understand Phil (which isn't very far) is not a leak and not a real bug. This just exits the game, no dialog box, no error message.

I think it would be great if those who experience OOM conditions could have a look at the windows system monitor to see how large CMBN grows before it hits the wall. Unfortunately Phil still refuses to state the virtual memory limit used for CMBN so we have to find out for ourselves.

I also think that if you have a way to clearly reproduce 3) that would be great. It seems to be a little too fuzzy to trigger on the fly.

As always make sure you have at least 4 GB paging space (swap file). That way you ensure that if you hit a OOM condition it will be the virtual memory limit. No 32 bit process can use more than 3 GB (or 4 GB when running in a 64 bit OS) virtual memory, so buy pushing swapspace+RAM (= physical memory) above that level you know a OOM crash is virtual. In theory running out of physical memory should lead to window giving you a dialog box asking you to increase swapspace but who knows whether that works in all cases.

****ing hope this help.

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Hello Redwolf, thanks for the tip. I increased the swap space on my new PC to 24000 meg which is three times the RAM that is installed. Is that enough? Its useless to try to play a large scenario on my older PC and its pretty good, 2.4gig processor and 2gig RAM,4000meg swap space(maxed out) and a Geforce 7600 GT which is in the middle of the required specs. Hopefully Phil will be able to give us a new set of recommended specs and an approximate max size for a scenario. I like to make large maps and am going to try my hand with scenarios but the first warning when it gets too big is an OOM error. It seems reasonable to me that the game should be able to play any size scenario that the CMBN editor is capable of producing. If I remember correctly you could only add up to a max amount of troops and vehicles in the CMX 1 editor and then it wouldn't add any more. Maybe the max size that the CMBN editor is capable of producing will have to be limited in a future patch.

CMBN is a 32 bit binary. Depending on flags settings and whether you are on a 32 bit or 64 bit OS the virtual memory limit can be 2, 3 or close to 4 GB. But never more.

All you have to do is make sure that swapspace+RAM is enough to fit a 4 GB process, so that you know you don't hit the physical limit. You should have 8 GB RAM+swapspace so that a 4 GB process fits alongside with the OS, assuming you don't have too muchbackground junk. In theory you will get a dialog box and a chance to expand swapspace when you run out but who knows whether that actually works during CMBN.

CMx1 did not hit any OS memory limits.

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CMBN is a 32 bit binary. Depending on flags settings and whether you are on a 32 bit or 64 bit OS the virtual memory limit can be 2, 3 or close to 4 GB. But never more.

All you have to do is make sure that swapspace+RAM is enough to fit a 4 GB process, so that you know you don't hit the physical limit. You should have 8 GB RAM+swapspace so that a 4 GB process fits alongside with the OS, assuming you don't have too muchbackground junk. In theory you will get a dialog box and a chance to expand swapspace when you run out but who knows whether that actually works during CMBN.

CMx1 did not hit any OS memory limits.

This is gobbly gook to me. Can you explain how to do this in layman's terms please

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This is gobbly gook to me. Can you explain how to do this in layman's terms please

If you have a 32 bit process then you will run out of virtual memory at 2, 3 or 4 GB based on a number of conditions.

As long as you have that much RAM+swapspace left over (after OS and background junk) the limit you hit is the virtual memory limit and no amount of more RAM or swapspace will improve the situation.

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No idea if this data is of any value:

CMN 1.01

Loading Fire Brigade V1 from Battle menu

stops loading at 38% (Read Data) + "out of memory" pop up

Nvidia Inspector Stats at error message time:

GPU Mem usage 112 MB (of 512 MB)

GPU Usage 0%

Windows Task manager at error message time shows:

available physical memory 770 MB (out of ~1,6 GB initially available)

virtual memory usage 1,34 GB (normally around 430 MB, MAX = 8 GB)

CPU Usage 100% (both cores and @ 3 GHZ)

General System Specs

WinXP SP3 32 Bit

Athlon II X2 250 (dual core @ 3 GHZ)

Nvida GT 240 with 512 MB DDR5 Ram (275.33 driver version)

2 GB DDR3 Ram

Virtual memory set 8192 MB Min = Max

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Does the message say anything about video memory? Sounds weird since the number don't indicate anything having run out. Are you able to post a screenshot of the entire dialog box?

Also, what's running on the other core? CMBN is single thread.

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Does the message say anything about video memory? Sounds weird since the number don't indicate anything having run out. Are you able to post a screenshot of the entire dialog box?

Also, what's running on the other core? CMBN is single thread.

...just the "out of memory" pop up.

WinXP Sysevents has entry:

Application popup CM Normandy: CM Normandy.exe

Application termination: Out of memory

Event ID 26

I´ll do some more tests with a better optimized system, killing of all unnecessary background tasks, services, ect.

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Weird that you got a popup and others have reported crashes with no dialog.

But clearly it ran out of virtual address space, RAM and swapspace look very much OK.

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Some more data. (attempt loading Firebrigade V1 in Battle screen)

Disabled virtual memory usage (no swap file)

Model Q: Best

Texture Q: Best

AA/Multisampling On

Sound On

Loads up to 36% then "out of memory" (Read Data)

~1300 MB Physical Memory (-340 MB before launch) used

~700 MB Physical Memory unused

looks like it quits with CMN actually using ~960 MB phys mem

GPU Mem usage was 111 MB at time of crash

______________________________________

Model Q: Fastest

Texture Q: Fastest

AA/Multisampling Off

Sound Off

Loads up to 36% then "out of memory" (Read Data)

~1200 MB Physical Memory (-340 MB before launch) used

~800 MB Physical Memory unused

looks like it quits with CMN actually using ~860 MB phys mem

GPU Mem usage was 62 MB at time of crash

I leave any conclusions from that to the experts

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You need to find how much virtual address space the CMBN process used. I don't have a windows box in front of me but I'm sure the process monitor has a column for it that you can activate in the display (and log so that you have a log for when after it crashes).

Note that MS Windows for some reason uses a marketing name for the paging area (swapfile) and calls it "virtual memory". It doesn't have anything to do with the per-process virtual address space you are running out of.

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You need to find how much virtual address space the CMBN process used. I don't have a windows box in front of me but I'm sure the process monitor has a column for it that you can activate in the display (and log so that you have a log for when after it crashes).

Note that MS Windows for some reason uses a marketing name for the paging area (swapfile) and calls it "virtual memory". It doesn't have anything to do with the per-process virtual address space you are running out of.

Yep, thus I deactivated the paging file, to avoid the confusing data in WTM/System performance window.

Found the "virtual memory" column and activated it. Rerun the last test and got following data:

CPU usage 60%

Memory usage 762.292 k

Virtual memory 899.668 k

at 36% "out of memory" (Read Data) crash time.

With all MaxQ settings & Sound On, data was almost the same:

CPU usage 60-90%

Memory usage ~770.000 k

Virtual memory ~900.000 k

at 36% "out of memory" (Read Data) crash time.

Probably should have looked in processes tab before, instead of misleading system performance tab.

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I moved the following post by Phil Culliton from the original OOM thread.

Phil Culliton

First Second Programmer

Join Date: Dec 2007

Posts: 1,162

quote"Essentially it was very easy in OSX to create, maintain, and distribute versions of CMBN that supported both 32- and 64-bit processors natively while maintaining a single code base. This isn't the case with Windows. That would be much more difficult and potentially problematic." end quote

Had I known this I would have bought a new Mac rather than a new PC. If converting CMBN to 64 bit will solve the OOM problem then BF might have no other option but to create a 64 bit version for the PC. That is if they expect the game is to continue to develop along the lines that they have outlined. BF has created an extremely intricate , playable, interesting and ground breaking game and it would be a shame if a game this great were to falter simply because it wasn't 64 bit. Lead the way BF.:)

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Ran several turns of fire brigade (this is a big scenario) and on my machine it uses,

1.2 GB memory with 1.5 GB total

300MB vm

916 MB Vid memory

W7 x64

12GB

GTX580 1.5GB mem

Some more data. (attempt loading Firebrigade V1 in Battle screen)

Disabled virtual memory usage (no swap file)

Model Q: Best

Texture Q: Best

AA/Multisampling On

Sound On

Loads up to 36% then "out of memory" (Read Data)

~1300 MB Physical Memory (-340 MB before launch) used

~700 MB Physical Memory unused

looks like it quits with CMN actually using ~960 MB phys mem

GPU Mem usage was 111 MB at time of crash

______________________________________

Model Q: Fastest

Texture Q: Fastest

AA/Multisampling Off

Sound Off

Loads up to 36% then "out of memory" (Read Data)

~1200 MB Physical Memory (-340 MB before launch) used

~800 MB Physical Memory unused

looks like it quits with CMN actually using ~860 MB phys mem

GPU Mem usage was 62 MB at time of crash

I leave any conclusions from that to the experts

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Hey Georgie - no bones unfortunately. This problem requires some serious heads-put-together time for me and Charles, and we've been too busy for that the past few weeks. This coming week we've been planning on taking time out to hash through some issues, though, and this problem is definitely on my agenda for said hashing.

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Hey Georgie - no bones unfortunately. This problem requires some serious heads-put-together time for me and Charles, and we've been too busy for that the past few weeks. This coming week we've been planning on taking time out to hash through some issues, though, and this problem is definitely on my agenda for said hashing.

Thanks Phil that's the answer that I was hoping for.:)

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Hey Georgie - no bones unfortunately. This problem requires some serious heads-put-together time for me and Charles, and we've been too busy for that the past few weeks. This coming week we've been planning on taking time out to hash through some issues, though, and this problem is definitely on my agenda for said hashing.

Any WAG on timeline? Weeks? Months? I understand the limitations you're working under, I'd love to hear you say three days but if you're talking refactoring major sections of the code base, I'm not holding my breath for anything coming soon.

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