Broadsword56 Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Fascinating story in the NY Times today about using our digital mapping tools to re-create historical places: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/27/arts/geographic-information-systems-help-scholars-see-history.html Now when someone chides you about the hours spent mapping a corner of 1944 Normandy, you can cast a noble aura over your work and reply, "I'm practicing Spatial Humanities!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 All I know is that as a "spatial humanities practitioner," it is taking a lot of work to re-create Cassino! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Cassino! Good luck with that massive task. Read a book about it and would like to try it as a "practitioner". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Right now, it's only going to cover Cassino Town, and Castle hill, for the 2nd NZ Division attacks in the Third Battle. We'll see how it goes, and then maybe I'll try the FEC/Indian Div/Polish Division attacks on the summit/Monastery. I think the latter one will actually be easier and look better, because I won't be going from "ground" level to 500+ meters, which so far looks not so good. I won't be going higher than Castle Hill because of that (so no Monastery; it's not needed for those battles anyway)--but rather I can start at a higher level and so the various heights will be relative to each other and will look better. If you happen to have CM Afghanistan, you'll know what I mean. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuser Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I wish you good luck. Those battles are one of the most intense and desperate in WW2. Stalingrado took the fame but for me, after reading (and re-reading) Matthew Parker´s Monte Cassino those battles and the soldiers there remain as the unknown heroes. Must be a tough map to design too! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Fuser, as it stands, it's about 1600m x 1600m and includes (E-W) Castle Hill to the Rapido, and (N-S) the RR station to that 90 degree bend in the Rapido north of the town. It wasn't too hard to get the landmarks laid out--Castle Hill, the Nunnery, RR Station, abn Hotel Continental, and I have quite a few aerial photos and pencil drawings of the town just before the Third battle--Google was mostly worthless for determining the size and layout of the town in Jan-May 1944. Thankfully, it was much, much smaller than it is today. What I'm worried about is how this will play out, since rubbling is not modeled well IMHO in CMBN, and not sure the Fallschirmjaegers are going to get as good protection from the destroyed buildings as was historically the case. Broadsword, sorry, I didn't mean to hijack this thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Fuser, as it stands, it's about 1600m x 1600m and includes (E-W) Castle Hill to the Rapido, and (N-S) the RR station to that 90 degree bend in the Rapido north of the town. It wasn't too hard to get the landmarks laid out--Castle Hill, the Nunnery, RR Station, abn Hotel Continental, and I have quite a few aerial photos and pencil drawings of the town just before the Third battle--Google was mostly worthless for determining the size and layout of the town in Jan-May 1944. Thankfully, it was much, much smaller than it is today. What I'm worried about is how this will play out, since rubbling is not modeled well IMHO in CMBN, and not sure the Fallschirmjaegers are going to get as good protection from the destroyed buildings as was historically the case. Broadsword, sorry, I didn't mean to hijack this thread. Any chance of a map preview teaser of any kind? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 One caution re designing large maps with lots of units (that was so easy in CM1) is that CMBN is a resource hog compared to CM1 (and maybe even CMSF as I recall playing largish CMSF scenarios ok.) I have a pretty powerful machine and just got tired of the 5 min load times for Omaha Beach and lengthy save game times etc. It looks fun, but imo it's not practical to play large CMBN scenarios unless you have a Cray or something... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 "Spatial Humanities"? I was just getting used to doing "Counterfactual History"! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 rocketman, all in good time. I haven't started the street layout, the buildings, or the road up the mountain face...my goal is to try to have it finished in maybe 3-4 months, my target date for the Commonwealth module. Erwin, Roger that. I will "chunk off" the RR Station and have the Maori battalion's February attack on it as a separate scenario. TheMarch attack from the north probably won't feature that southern area of the town. Mind you, this all may go to dust if I can't get the map right and look good. But maybe some testers will help out when the time comes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 "I'm practicing Spatial Humanities!" Funnily enough ... I've recently finished working on a couple of maps located NE of Vire. Reading accounts of the various battles in that area, they're constantly filled with phrases like "the heavily wooded valley to our front". Which is odd, because that particular area is heavily farmed, with practically no remaining forest areas. But, once I'd finished one of the maps I was able to e-stand on one ridge, and gaze out a couple of kms over the valley to the next ridge. And, indeed, the intervening valley really does appear to be heavily wooded. It isn't, actually, of course. But the many rows of hedgreows with their trees certainly give that impression. At that point a penny dropped. Another map is based on a photo that's been overlaid with a battalion-sized unit's deployment, and it looked really, really cramped. But once I'd made the map, and laid out the units, I couldn't help thinking "... gee, I'd really like to bring these guys in a bit closer - there's no way they can support each other from such a dispersed position." And at that point another penny dropped. Making maps is a fascinating process 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Hmm, just got back from a monthlong absence and whaddya know -- 2 patches! Interesting thread. But how about a little "Spatial Inhumanity" counterpoint, lest we forget the subject matter we're dealing with here. And whom it was that the GIs -- to quote Patton at KZ Ohrdruf -- were fighting against. The Poles certainly have not -- this digital recreation took hundreds of programmers, and years to complete. Warsaw in Ruins 1945 By January 1945 85% of the buildings were destroyed: 25% as a result of the Uprising, 35% as a result of systematic German actions after the uprising, and the rest as a result of the earlier Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, and the September 1939 campaign. Material losses are estimated at 10,455 buildings, 923 historical buildings (94%), 25 churches, 14 libraries including the National Library, 81 primary schools, 64 high schools, University of Warsaw and Warsaw University of Technology, and most of the historical monuments. Almost a million inhabitants lost all of their possessions. The exact amount of losses of private and public property as well as pieces of art, monuments of science and culture is unknown but considered enormous. Studies done in the late 1940s estimated total damage at about $30 billion US dollars. In 2004, President of Warsaw Lech Kaczyński, later President of Poland, established a historical commission to estimate material losses that were inflicted upon the city by German authorities. The commission estimated the losses as at least US$31.5 billion at 2004 values. Those estimates were later raised to US$45 billion 2004 US dollars and in 2005, to $54.6 billion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Monte Casino was the British Stalingrad....the hardest fight we had in WW2...aswell as Tubrok. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chek Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Right now, it's only going to cover Cassino Town, and Castle hill, for the 2nd NZ Division attacks in the Third Battle. We'll see how it goes, and then maybe I'll try the FEC/Indian Div/Polish Division attacks on the summit/Monastery. I think the latter one will actually be easier and look better, because I won't be going from "ground" level to 500+ meters, which so far looks not so good. I won't be going higher than Castle Hill because of that (so no Monastery; it's not needed for those battles anyway)--but rather I can start at a higher level and so the various heights will be relative to each other and will look better. If you happen to have CM Afghanistan, you'll know what I mean. Between you and sdp you're bringing the Italian theatre to life.Very much looking forward to this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Wish me luck. I'm becoming a bit daunted by it, but I'm slowly pecking away at it. It will be months before its done. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Wish me luck. I'm becoming a bit daunted by it, but I'm slowly pecking away at it. It will be months before its done. Luck be with you most worthy designer for embarking on such a momentous task. Will be patient and wait... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chek Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Wish me luck. I'm becoming a bit daunted by it, but I'm slowly pecking away at it. It will be months before its done. I wish you all the luck in the world and perfectly understand how it could appear a little daunting.Pecking away is just fine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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