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Georgie

Troops in buildings

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Is the impact angle of small arms bullets impacting the side of a building calculated? If it isn't then that could be one reason that we see buildings being made into Swiss Cheese by small arms. I doubt that buildings IRL were assaulted at a 90 degree angle if there was a way to get at it from a better angle. If the angle of impact to a building isn't calculated now, I am guessing, it would be a major code update to calculate the effect of bullets striking at different angles. So maybe a simulated result could take that into consideration. To me the protection of troops in buildings is the only remaining problem that affects game play in a significant manner. The way CMBN portrays fighting from a building now makes urban fighting unrealistic to me. CMX1 portrayed it very well in my opinion and made for some very entertaining, absorbing and tense battles. I'm sure some of you remember having to bring a tank up to shell a building or to wheel an antitank gun into position, much to its peril, to shell the building.

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The larger buildings are a mystery to me. A I have only played one urban combat and for most of that I eas checking to see an M8 with30+ rounds of 75mm could flattern what I call a block of flats - two storey and pretty wide. The answer is no.

So it seems to me that there needs to be some more research on lethality in urban areas. My original feeling was that CMBN had imported CMSF figures but given the new patch was coming I never really looked into it.

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BTW I don't think houses are necessarily a good place to fight from and the isolated house definitely not unless it is in a particularly good position and attackers have no decent cover. Not necessarily for a firefight but for the fact that the house needs to be cleared before an attack can proceed - this makes hiding and taking no or low casualties a good idea.

One drawback, and it is a considerable one, is that we can see if the building we attack has a back door allowing enemy troops to move in and out. And of course we know they cannot possibly use any windows at the back to move in and out no matter how logical it might seem. Perhaps in a future CM?

Here, here...windows should most definitely be a means of ingress and egress from ground floor buildings.

Easy for me to say because I don't know whats involved software wise, but I'll say it anyway.

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So it seems to me that there needs to be some more research on lethality in urban areas. My original feeling was that CMBN had imported CMSF figures but given the new patch was coming I never really looked into it.

I agree, a modified version of CMSF was probably imported but it wasn't modified enough to match the 40s era Normandy buildings. A little more modification needs to be done. I was under the impression that BF was going to address this and other building issues in the first patch. In my opinion it would have gone a long way towards making CMBN a better game and more fun to play.

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Much of the troubles come from building defenders beeing too long exposed to return fire from the outside. The inherent "fire tactics" of CMN infantry units aren´t very good (don´t go for cover reloading, bunching up at single fighting positions, rates of fire too low and more...), so a lil bit of playing around with orders and micro managing is necessary.

I´m looking for ways, getting an infantry unit "unhide", do quickest rate fire at chosen enemy unit AND hide again after a set time (maybe 10 seconds max). This would be a time a soldier needs to expend a full rifle clip (5-8 rounds) at the chosen enemy, synchronized with the remaing teams or squads weapons (SMG, LMG...). This would be a realistic and historic squad fire tactic (german "Feuerüberfall").

Did anybody figure out yet, how to set orders/commands to achieve something like that? "Hide" can obviously not be given as timed (do something...pause...hide) order, as hide is applied at once with stationary units or after moving to a different action spot.

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Much of the troubles come from building defenders beeing too long exposed to return fire from the outside. The inherent "fire tactics" of CMN infantry units aren´t very good (don´t go for cover reloading, bunching up at single fighting positions, rates of fire too low and more...), so a lil bit of playing around with orders and micro managing is necessary.

I´m looking for ways, getting an infantry unit "unhide", do quickest rate fire at chosen enemy unit AND hide again after a set time (maybe 10 seconds max). This would be a time a soldier needs to expend a full rifle clip (5-8 rounds) at the chosen enemy, synchronized with the remaing teams or squads weapons (SMG, LMG...). This would be a realistic and historic squad fire tactic (german "Feuerüberfall").

Did anybody figure out yet, how to set orders/commands to achieve something like that? "Hide" can obviously not be given as timed (do something...pause...hide) order, as hide is applied at once with stationary units or after moving to a different action spot.

You can't do it, and keep the unit in exactly the same place in WEGO. But you can do something similar if you don't mind moving the unit at least a little bit (which is often a good idea anyway, to break contact)

1. TARGET ORDER (or TARGET ARC, or just UNHIDE, depending on whether want them to pick their own target)

2. PAUSE command to stay where they are for 10 seconds (or 15, or 20, or whatever)

3. Short SLOW order with a tight cover arc on the end waypoint, to stop firing, drop to the ground and and start moving away to break contact.

4. HIDE order on ending waypoint of SLOW order.

IME, it often works better to QUICK or ASSAULT away as the move order if you can break contact in a short distance -- e.g., run out the back of the building after a short ambush fusillade to completely break contact, and then sneak back in the next turn to re-engage. The SLOW order does work brilliantly in certain situations, though, such as when your unit is behind a low stone wall -- just order the unit to SLOW one action point along the wall, and it will drop out of the enemy's LOS as soon as it starts to execute the SLOW order. Bocage can work similarly.

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You can't do it, and keep the unit in exactly the same place in WEGO. But you can do something similar if you don't mind moving the unit at least a little bit (which is often a good idea anyway, to break contact)

1. TARGET ORDER (or TARGET ARC, or just UNHIDE, depending on whether want them to pick their own target)

2. PAUSE command to stay where they are for 10 seconds (or 15, or 20, or whatever)

3. Short SLOW order with a tight cover arc on the end waypoint, to stop firing, drop to the ground and and start moving away to break contact.

4. HIDE order on ending waypoint of SLOW order.

IME, it often works better to QUICK or ASSAULT away as the move order if you can break contact in a short distance -- e.g., run out the back of the building after a short ambush fusillade to completely break contact, and then sneak back in the next turn to re-engage. The SLOW order does work brilliantly in certain situations, though, such as when your unit is behind a low stone wall -- just order the unit to SLOW one action point along the wall, and it will drop out of the enemy's LOS as soon as it starts to execute the SLOW order. Bocage can work similarly.

Good stuff, thank you.

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Mirkus,

German squad, 4 men firing, american squad 12 men firing MAY have something to do with it.

Rune

Yeah but maybe the US soldiers should hit the deck sometime when under fire in the open and maybe even cower ?

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Almost all buildings in Normandy at the time seem to have been of solid stone masonry construction.

I was just in Normandy three weeks ago. In the towns without modern construction, most of the construction is stone and quite old. Small villages and hamlets are stone buildings usually connected by tall stone walls.

The older bocage in Normandy today still looks like it would be impenetrable to tanks, but not as impenetrable to infantry as portrayed in the game. A lot of the bocage has been given a "haircut" leaving only the berm. Some of these berms appear to have formed over old stone walls.

Sunken roads are quite common in the countryside.

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You can't do it, and keep the unit in exactly the same place in WEGO. But you can do something similar if you don't mind moving the unit at least a little bit (which is often a good idea anyway, to break contact)

1. TARGET ORDER (or TARGET ARC, or just UNHIDE, depending on whether want them to pick their own target)

2. PAUSE command to stay where they are for 10 seconds (or 15, or 20, or whatever)

3. Short SLOW order with a tight cover arc on the end waypoint, to stop firing, drop to the ground and and start moving away to break contact.

4. HIDE order on ending waypoint of SLOW order.

IME, it often works better to QUICK or ASSAULT away as the move order if you can break contact in a short distance -- e.g., run out the back of the building after a short ambush fusillade to completely break contact, and then sneak back in the next turn to re-engage. The SLOW order does work brilliantly in certain situations, though, such as when your unit is behind a low stone wall -- just order the unit to SLOW one action point along the wall, and it will drop out of the enemy's LOS as soon as it starts to execute the SLOW order. Bocage can work similarly.

Yes, that´s what I figured as well, but as said, involves moving away from current action spot. QUICK and ASSAULTING away soldiers offer more of a target for return fire, so isn´t really a good option to me, but depends highly on terrain and the general situation.

I´d vote for a pausable hide/unhide in combination with commands, that do NOT require to move from the currently occupied action spot. :)

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I ran a series of simple tests comparing the protection buildings offer compared to being in the open and prone. I used a US 12 man squad and a German 9 man Grenadier squad for comparison. With both squads in the open,prone and 150m from each other.The results were consistent with the out come a draw with very few casualties on either side and neither side panicked or suppressed. I ran each test for 3 min. Next I set up two 2 story houses, the 3rd one in the list in the editor. I split the US squad and put them in the houses on the bottom floor and 150m between the US and German squads. The US squad started suffering casualties in the first or second min and vacated the premises out the back door about the 3rd min each time the test was run. I repeated the tests by splitting the German squads and putting them in the same model house on the 1st floor. The results were the Germans started taking casualties in the first or second min and vacated the premises out the back door about the fourth min or so each time I ran the test. It looks like its better to stay out of this type building even if no other cover is available. Also it looks like we won't need tanks to clear out houses, just a few machine guns and a squad or two. What a disappointment, I wanted to work my tanks forward and do some shelling to drive out the stubborn defenders. When I get some time I will do some testing on the modular buildings and the barns.

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This is very worrying testing. I havent tested it but my observations from playing scenarios confirm this too. Buildings (except church) provide very little cover.

We need to do some more testing to confirm this. It seems buildings might not work as they should.

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Been testing a scenario I’ve been working on using map Asslt Large Hills QB-121 and the buildings on that map seem quite tough even against 88mm HE from a tiger. It could be just certain buildings or just the angle that might be causing the problem you are seeing.

This is very worrying testing. I havent tested it but my observations from playing scenarios confirm this too. Buildings (except church) provide very little cover.

We need to do some more testing to confirm this. It seems buildings might not work as they should.

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It could be just certain buildings or just the angle that might be causing the problem you are seeing.

That may be the reason for the discrepancies reported. When the defenders show only a grey line out of building that's asking for trouble. Or so it seems. Also, the modular buildings and churches *seem* the most robust.

Here's a mini-test with three structures: two modulars and a church. ~180m. The buildings, manned by Germans, FACE the Allied attackers: three squad vs three squads. The Allies are Regular and the Germans Veteran to compensate for the numbers difference.

http://www.mediafire.com/?fhx5ai9534lrf2q

I ran it eight times (I know...) and the Allies get pwnd.

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Which churches are offering the most cover? The standard ones or the large cathedral type?

Lol. The first thought in my mind when I read this was, "and will the answer suggest it is better to be Protestant or Catholic when playing Combat Mission?"

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That may be the reason for the discrepancies reported. When the defenders show only a grey line out of building that's asking for trouble. Or so it seems. Also, the modular buildings and churches *seem* the most robust.

Here's a mini-test with three structures: two modulars and a church. ~180m. The buildings, manned by Germans, FACE the Allied attackers: three squad vs three squads. The Allies are Regular and the Germans Veteran to compensate for the numbers difference.

http://www.mediafire.com/?fhx5ai9534lrf2q

I ran it eight times (I know...) and the Allies get pwnd.

Hello Childress, that sounds like there is still hope for urban battles. Try it with allies and axis forces the same experience level. I ran mine with both "regular" because I noticed a difference in the outcome when I ran tests with both sides outside and prone. May be the "vets" can shoot straighter. Also you might try a test with no buildings but the same forces facing each other. The 9 man Grenadier squad fire power at about 100 to 150m I found to be about equal to the 12 man US squad.

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Try it with allies and axis forces the same experience level.

I did, same (nearly) result. Problems arise, it appears, for the defenders when the building is at a 45 degree angle to the attackers. Presumably they're firing out of a single window while the attackers can spray the entire floor getting penetration hits and shrapnel kills. Particularly noticeable in the smaller type structures.

Question: Barns are proving completely porous and enable the blue LOS line from every (windowless) wall. Is this WAD?

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Which churches are offering the most cover? The standard ones or the large cathedral type?

I have used large cathedral. That seems to give quite good protection. Normal smaller church give only little more or even same protection than normal building. But as I said, I haven't tested this, it's only observation of several scenarios I have played.

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I agree that it would be a great future addition to have various buildings with easily detected protection factors available in the editor. Even a simple color code like the UI has for vehicles would be fine for me. Red to blue for various HE/AP metrics.

Farmhouse and Stout Farmhouse, Wood or Stone Barn options, etc.

As for the current system and its balance/drawbacks/etc...

It may be a case of the buildings going into the most-played maps and battles are just of the weaker types due to other considerations such as historical accuracy of appearance, rather than strength. If it is a non-modular structure of two stories or less, I would advise that troops larger than 3 man teams either stay out or hide while inside. Still haven't tested damaged buildings but I am willing to bet they are weaker than undamaged versions.

I think the upper floor issue works fairly well as is, even though it may seem unrealistic at times. No, real troopers didn't all do their best Norman Bates impression every time they came to a window. But, they wouldn't be sticking their noses out an upper story window en masse in the first place either. One soldier(grey line for us) would peek and report back. Again, small numbers of stealthy troops.

An HMG team in an upper story may seem like a great idea... but your results will most likely show you the error of that decision. They are exposed while firing, cannot run away, and their entire action spot has a chance of dropping to the bottom floor... which would have all sorts of detrimental effects for all concerned. Not to mention that more enemy will most likely see them than they can shoot at. LOS and tracers work both ways.

The invisible window issue is known... just not fully addressed as of yet it seems. Unless they are modeling non-damage openings.

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If it is a non-modular structure of two stories or less, I would advise that troops larger than 3 man teams either stay out or hide while inside. I think the upper floor issue works fairly well as is, even though it may seem unrealistic at times.

I'm beginning to suspect that, given approx equal numbers, troops are better off in most buildings provided that the structure has two or more windows and the defenders have full (blue line) LOS to the attackers. If you're getting a grey line, hide 'em.

Another interesting result of my test is that both friendly and enemy casualties go up the higher the defender is in the building. The guys on the 4th floor tended to have suffered the most losses and scored the most kills.

The invisible window issue is known... just not fully addressed as of yet it seems. Unless they are modelling non-damage openings.

That makes sense. But, if they are simulating cracks, you wish that BFC hadn't built the interior walls of barns in brick from several feet up.

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I´d vote for a pausable hide/unhide in combination with commands, that do NOT require to move from the currently occupied action spot. :)

I dunno how do-able that is,but if so it would certainly get my vote

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Is the size of a building always directly proportional to the amount of cover it provides - or can are there small tough/large weak buildings?

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All I want to say is the designer who made Bloody Omaha did a great job at map making and made some houses strong by laying the stone wall and house walls together, thus creating a house that has walls that we are wishiing for. He used high walls on sides without windows and low walls that go under windows. A great solutuion to making at least the 1st floor level strong for defense

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I have completed testing of all of the individual houses and have found that some of them do indeed offer good protection from small arms fire and I suppose that the rest of the structures are also a mix of light and heavy construction. But the question for me is which ones? This info, as someone has already pointed out, needs to be made available some where on the game screen. This info is needed in order to plan an attack or plan a defense. You need to know which structure you need to assault , which structure you just need to machine gun and which structure to occupy for defense. Maybe all this info wasn't available IRL in real time but if you see that the enemy has occupied a stone house you know that its gonna have to bypass it or bring up a tank to get them out of there and you would also know that that same stone house would be good for defense. One question that I still have is why some of the brick houses in the game offer less protection than fighting in the open on a grass field? I could maybe understand this if the house was a modern day wood or stucco wall and the occupants were standing upright. I think that an adjustment needs to be made in order for the game to be more realistic. All of the CMX1 games had this info and they were the hallmark of war games so why not have that info in CMBN. We really need some "Building Grogs" to chime in.

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