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1939 Storm over Europe - AAR


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Once again about tech. Don't you think that reaching maximum tech levels in armour, aviation and infantry by 1942 makes the game a bit unrealistic? Are there any other factors appart from cash invested and the level of intelligence that decide the speed of the tech advance?

It looks like the game may be decided by 1943. If the Germans manage to beat Soviet Union in the summer campaign of 1942, the Western Allies won't be able to face them on equal terms anywhere on the ground in Europe...

Great game guys - I am reading and learning...;)

Hi Ivanov

You are right - tech advance has been too swift in my opinion. There are some suggestions flying around the beta forum about this, but from my angle I got to level 3 in intelligence quite quickly and this increases the chance of each chit bringing an advance by 3% (I think) and therefore that may be why my own advance was pretty good. Marc getting to level 4 armour by 1941 may have been a similar result, or just the product of SC fortune. On the other side of the coin my advance in industry has been quite slow (2 points of increase for a double chit investment throughout the first 2.5 years of war), and in submarine tech none at all, so it can work both ways. It can be an infuriating part of the game, but it guarantees that every game you play is different, and not many packages out there can do that.

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For me tech advance is a crucial factor is in SC2.. it can turn the tide easily. Sometimes I`m quite frustrated with slow advance, and somestimes you have maxed all relevant technologies out long before the game ends. In my eyes the accidental character of tech development has too much weight... I have seen it so often that I had all possible MPPs invested and almost nothing happens for half a year.. and in other games you get all important technologies early in the game, and you win it quickly. This should be tweaked.. too much influence.

Maybe a player who has invested all MPPs should get some kind of bonus.. or a minimum advance.

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Hi Al!

Thanks for getting back to me. I just though about the tech advance after looking at the screen shots from the current game. The battlefield looks like late 1944, not 1942:)

I'd like to mention also another thing. I know your eyes are focused now firmly on the titanic struggle in the Soviet Union, but I'm new to the forum, so I'd like to give my opinion about the way Poland is represented in the game. From one hand it feels really good that Poland is one on the major countries ( I am from that country myself ), but from the other hand it may actually prevent Polish armed forces from taking part in the actual fighting after Germany ocupies the country in 1939. A major country cannot build and deploy new units after it's stripped of it's resources. Polish armed forces keept on fighting on all the fronts of Second World War after 1939 and the troops were simply equiped and trained by respcetively French, British and finnaly Soviet standards and formed a integral part of the armed forces of those countries. So instedad of making Poland a major country, there should be some event decisions for the French, British and Soviets about forming Polish Armed forces on the exile, as a part of their own armed forces ( simmilary to the formation of the Czechoslovak Corps in Italy in the Call To Arms campaign ). For example the British should be able to form a Polish corps in the Med and a tank division and paras in England, maybe some airforce aswell. By the late 1944 the Soviets deployed two Polish armies and there was an intention of forming a third one and joining them into a Polish Front. At the end Stalin didn't allow it for political reasons, because he was not comfortable about having such a big Polish formation inside the Red Army...

Looking forward to hear some news from climatic struggle in the East!

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Hyazinth von Strachwitz - I agree with you completely. I think there should be also some limitation, so you cannot get the maximum tech by some year. Let's say the level 5 tech should be available from 1944?

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On the subject of retreating, if a unit is garrisoning a city, and is attacked, will it retreat from that city square? Same thing if a unit is in a fortification. Will it retreat or hold its ground? I guess if the workings of the game, are the defending unit would be destroyed on the attack, but instead will retreat, then I guess that is fine. But if the unit would still have some minimal strength left and then retreats, I'd rather have him stay defending the city, instead of allowing the attacking unit to occupy the city after I just retreated. I guess the question is, do you have the option to check off (no retreat) on a particular unit (stand and die orders?)

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Sorry for the delay in getting this turn back. I have a full time job, I am working on the next episode of my show for 2 Cent History (new subject here WWII) and writing a novel… plus I have a loving wife and 2 small kids at home… with her family visiting, so it’s been hectic the last few days. To top it off the AAR is constantly on my mind. Love this game. My wife is beginning to hate it.

Okay. I launched another limited offensive in the East with some great results. The Russian Front is now chewing up units at an amazing rate. Good thing I have a large reserve and another 20 units in production… for next spring. :P

Al has 2 major army groups in the region… call them Army Group North and Center. What I wanted to avoid was going all in on one Army Group and having the other flank me, which I know he’s planning to do. I held back 5 armor this turn and a large number of corps and armies. I have concentrated a large amount of air power for support and they have to be taking their toll on Al’s air step by step. They are very cheap for me to repair. The offensive went off nicely. I hammered one of Al’s armor with air. I destroyed an army, SS (special forces unit) and I think 2 corps with another 3 mauled. I fully expect to be mauled in return.

This was the beginning of the attack. Notice the over-strengthed Russian armor... battle experience.

RussiaAttack2.jpg

I am not going to post a follow up picture as I do not want to show my reserves… though Al may be able to see them if he has long range air tech for recon.

The charts are interesting to review:

This is a chart showing MMP losses for Russia so far. You can see how the fighting is chewing up units. Also… Russia is struggling for cash at the moment… but I have Production 4 so… it makes life a lot easier to replace lost units and is almost like being at full industry without any losses. Replacement armies I think now cost me 64 MMP. Don’t even ask what corps and garrisons cost.

RussiaMMPsLossA.jpg

This is the German chart showing MMP losses. You can see how much more the Germans have suffered when the Russians attacked and or fighting occurred. You can also see how much Al is making. Interesting stuff.

GermanyMMPLoss.jpg

In the West… the Allies are up to something. I can tell Al can sense it… he’s redeployed a lot. I wonder if he knows what I am up to. :P We are now at the end of August 42.

As to tech… It is my understanding the tech system has been adjusted already and when this campaign is released I expect it to operate a bit more realistically. Hubert has given it a lot of attention. A number of other modifications to game play and unit deployments have been made so when released the campaign will be a bit more balanced and fun. Bill has added a lot of content too… including a ton of popups concerning various commando raids, etc. Really some cool stuff.

Speaking of release… I am going to open to playing 2 more games. Please email me at marc@2centhistory.com if you are interested in playing me. You will learn a lot very quickly. I made this same offer when WWI was released and Al snatched up the opportunity. He learned very quickly the advantages of entrenching your units… :) At the cost of a lot of Poor Frenchies…

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Ivanov brings up an excellent point of conquered nations sending contingents to fight with the other alliance. It should be an automatic decision event for the side that has lost a minor or major constituent to invest MPPs and be given armed forces representing the vanquished.

This should probable occur intermittently throughout the game as more and more of the population of conquered nations exit their homeland to fight for the cause of freedom.

Of course in the case of WW2 this probably would not ring true for the Soviet Union to a large extent, as most of their occupied populace would have sided with the Axis given a considerate chance.

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Maybe there should be an event for Germans, about creating some units for example out of the Ukrainian nationalists? Hitler didn't take this oportunity, however it potentialy could have changed the course of the war in the East...

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OK - I mucked up and for some reason my copy of photoshop with my 3 images on it has crashed when I returned to my desk to do this post. Sorry... :-(

So a verbal report only:

1. In the key zone WNW of Moscow I destroyed 3 more Soviet armour units and another 4 or 5 armies/corps. This now represents a serious blow to the Soviet war machine, and I gambled a bit by pushing an airborne unit out in front of my main spearhead just to see whether Marc has the strength to destroy it next turn. If not it may be all guns blazing for Moscow - if he wipes it out I may need to crawl a bit more. A check of the army sizes showed that the German army has now regained its 2:1 advantage in size, and that ratio is going to widen further. I have not lost any armour yet and hope the weather will stay fine just a turn or two more to give my Tac Air more harvests. Of the 6 destroyed soviet armour units in the last few turns 4 have gone to Tac Air - it is very powerful when fully upgraded and the enemy has no advance in AA tech.

2. Further south I destroyed a corps that had crept close to Stalino, and have pushed to within 2 hexes of Baku in the far south east. Only one oil square left to capture and that will be that.

3. In the centre I retook Kursk which was left unguarded and have begun to gather enough units in this region to form a battlegroup in another turn's time. I will probably send it towards Stalingrad which, from the forts that Marc has built around it, must be the alternate capital in waiting when Moscow falls.

The Italians destroyed a garrison and the U boats stayed on the arctic convoys.

All in all I am determined to squeeze Russia out of the game. We are nearly into September: it has taken a bit longer than planned to get so close to Moscow, largely becuase the Red Army is so vast and is throwing units in front of the Stukas and Panzers now to slow them down, but I think I will get there nonetheless, maybe in autumn.

All I then need do is hunker down and wait for the Yankees...

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Handling tech advances.

HOI has an interesting and I think realistic model on this front. They break tech advances into both Research Breakthroughs (ah I know how to do jet engines) and Production Breakthroughs.. ah I know how to produce reliable units fro the field. Historically man research breakthroughs were stalled by lack of production breakthroughs.

Requiring two kinds of breakthrough per an advance (or allow very expensive prototype units till breakthrough) means that statistically the chance of getting "unfair" breakthroughs decreases because you bascially have to succeed twice in a row.

This would tend to flatten advances rather then have odd "runs of luck".

Just a thought.

The other way to do it might be to have the breakthrough simply have a "delay" during which you have acheived breakthrough "3" but cannot produce for a year. This time would allow opponents to have improved chances of getting the research too while not giving you an edge quite so quickly.

Just throwing thoughts out there.

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My experience in WAW was that the Soviets had no chance without high AA as well as good ftr tech. They just had to suppress the German air power or at least reduce it.

So if the Soviets here have no AA advances then I am more hesitant in predicting allied victory. I thought they did have AA advances.

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My experience in WAW was that the Soviets had no chance without high AA as well as good ftr tech. They just had to suppress the German air power or at least reduce it.

So if the Soviets here have no AA advances then I am more hesitant in predicting allied victory. I thought they did have AA advances.

I think Marc is on level 1 (maybe level 2? Not sure from the graphic...) air to my level 4, and his ground units have no AA upgrade. It is making my Tac Air very powerful indeed. It is a lesson learned in reverse -when I play soviet I will definitely be getting AA upgrades...

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Hi Al!

From one hand it feels really good that Poland is one on the major countries ( I am from that country myself ), but from the other hand it may actually prevent Polish armed forces from taking part in the actual fighting after Germany ocupies the country in 1939... For example the British should be able to form a Polish corps in the Med and a tank division and paras in England, maybe some airforce aswell. By the late 1944 the Soviets deployed two Polish armies and there was an intention of forming a third one and joining them into a Polish Front. At the end Stalin didn't allow it for political reasons, because he was not comfortable about having such a big Polish formation inside the Red Army...

Hi Ivanov

I totally agree, and because of this we have implemented a number of decision events to allow for the formation of Polish units in Britain, France, the Middle East and the USSR. Their contribution to the allied victory certainly deserves to be acknowledged.

In fact, the first decision event the Allies are likely to see in the game will be a Polish one.

Bill

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For me tech advance is a crucial factor is in SC2.. it can turn the tide easily. Sometimes I`m quite frustrated with slow advance, and somestimes you have maxed all relevant technologies out long before the game ends. In my eyes the accidental character of tech development has too much weight... I have seen it so often that I had all possible MPPs invested and almost nothing happens for half a year.. and in other games you get all important technologies early in the game, and you win it quickly. This should be tweaked.. too much influence.

Hi

Agreed, though with the new tech system that comes with this patch luck is much less of a factor than before.

Since this AAR game began we've also made a few changes which should make the research progression proceed at a more realistic pace, though it will retain some variability too.

Bill

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On the subject of retreating, if a unit is garrisoning a city, and is attacked, will it retreat from that city square? Same thing if a unit is in a fortification. Will it retreat or hold its ground? I guess if the workings of the game, are the defending unit would be destroyed on the attack, but instead will retreat, then I guess that is fine. But if the unit would still have some minimal strength left and then retreats, I'd rather have him stay defending the city, instead of allowing the attacking unit to occupy the city after I just retreated. I guess the question is, do you have the option to check off (no retreat) on a particular unit (stand and die orders?)

Hi

Units have a much lower chance of retreating if they are defending a city, capital or fortress, so they will be much more likely to fight to the death there.

But units in the open that are low on strength and aren't entrenched are five times more likely to retreat.

The retreat itself is due to being in a bad situation so it isn't optional - they are fleeing for their lives whether we wish them to or not!

Bill

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This is good to hear, Bill. It is less interesting and fun to play with tech luck as a prime factor in victory or defeat, but, on the other hand, variability is important for replay value.

Hi

Agreed, though with the new tech system that comes with this patch luck is much less of a factor than before.

Since this AAR game began we've also made a few changes which should make the research progression proceed at a more realistic pace, though it will retain some variability too.

Bill

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Okay... last turn was quite catastrophic. I lost more than I thought I would. Al pushed forward hard. He is almost on the gates of Moscow and may actually break through my fortifications next turn. His airpower is very devastating. We are now into september and I am hoping Winter comes early. I've gone over to the defensive. I have a number of units deploying over the next few turns... so it is far from over.

The UK has held Spanish Morroco since Germany first invaded. The US used it as a springboard to invade Algeria this turn... taking 3 production cities.

Beyond that a lot going on behind the scenes.

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Nearly there now. The weather will define the speed of Moscow's fall now, but here is how the turn finished:

gatesofmoscow.jpg

I was unable to destroy anything because Marc withdrew it all, and my most powerful forces I took the time to reinforce and prepare. I have brought all my air into range, and put about 90% of my units onto full strength including all the heavy stuff. Suffice to say that behind this line that I am showing you I have virtually all the German Panzer elite, the whole Luftwaffe's Stuka force with good fighter support, a host of full strength armies and corps and 4 very good HQ. You may wonder why I advanced that fighter forward - in this incarnation of SC the fighter units have the recon ability and not the bombers anymore as is the case in SCGC. I wanted to take a bit of a look at the surrounding territory so sent it forward.

As well as obscuring a little of what I have it is worth thinking of the aftermath for the Soviets - without Moscow the transport and supply hub in northern Russia is decimated. It is a long way to the nearest towns other than the 2 to the south east and I intend to get these quickly. Marc has a big choice to make now - he could stand and fight and maybe lose nearly everything, or evacuate to live to fight another day down to Stalingrad. To be honest if he evacuates it will make everything much more difficult for me in 1943 as I am not really near to Stalingrad in any force, but I wonder if the desire to hold Moscow will make him stand and fight. If so a lot of Red Army soldiers are going to die... He may not, of course, have enough mpps to do it.

Just to make clear the state of the war here is the current armed forces for all nations:

armiessept42.jpg

The Red Army has shrunk a lot. The UK and US armies simply arent big enough to threaten substantially at present.

Elsewhere the oil has fallen: shot here:

gotoil.jpg

A nice empty caucasus and I can now get that very experienced HQ and my last panzer uit back up to the main fight and begin to reap the oil benefits. That will take another few turns yet as supply of 5 is necessary through the rail hubs to really get the flow going. However I got 959 mpps last turn, so I am ok for the moment!

The axis are looking good at present. If I lose from here I will be very disappointed, but Marc is sure to have some tricks up his sleeve yet.

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