Panzer V against any US tank

[JG11Preusse]

It was said that when encountering a Panther you send 5 Shermans and expect to lose 4. You have to be prepared to take losses while aiming to attack the weaker side and rear of a Panther.

The Panther did have some weak spots that would allow success when attacking the front. I can't recall the specifics, but I think it was possible to bounce a 37mm or 57mm against the ground so it would deflect up and hit the less armored bottom of a Panther. It was also possible to hit the Panther at the point where the turret and hull met and that would take it out. That all being said and done the aim was usually to use superior numbers and flank a Panther.

Overall the Panther was a better tank in most respects. On soft ground its suspension and wider tracks gave it lower ground pressure so it could be more maneuverable that a Sherman, even though it was heavier. The Panthers 75 mm gun was awesome and the sighting system was far superior. IIRC the Panthers 75mm gun had better penetration than the 88mm due to higher velocity.

Mechanically the Panther could be very problematical. A Sherman could go a 100 miles a day and do so day in day out. A Panther would be hard pressed to do the same feat. Another weakness was the Panther used gasoline, not diesel and thus could burn fiercely if the gasoline ignited.

American air power was also a major headache for the Germans.

can you imagine, how much energy will be absorbed, if you hit the ground first with your 37 or 57 mm ammo and at what angle this bullet will impact ?

[JG11Preusse]

Tell that to Panzer Lehr at Mortain; 106th Panzer Brigade at Mairy; 5th Panzer Army at Arracourt; 112 Panzer Brigade at Dompaire; and 12 SS Panzer Division at Krinkelt.

All of these are examples of where large numbers of Panthers (and other AVFs) were knocked out by Shermans and 76mm tank destroyers (and 57 and 76 mm AT guns) with minimal or moderate loss to the Allied forces. Most of these battles the Germans had more AFVs than the Allies. In the case of Dompaire, the French 2nd Armored attacked with 75mm Shermans and M10s against a superior number of Panthers and wiped the floor with them.

Sorry, but the Panther was in terms of actual effectiveness not as good as it looks on the spec sheet.

In terms of actual battle performance it outscorred Shermans IIRC 1.2 to 1.

In terms of operational effectiveness, Panther units routinely ran at less than 50% operational. Sherman units rarely ran at less than 80% operational. That gives the Allies a 2:1 edge in available tanks even barring the large difference in production. If your tank sucks mechanically, it has a large impact on how many can be fielded in any particular battle. This will put you at a big disadvantage regardless of how uber it appears at Achtungpanzer.com

im not wondering, that you say this ........ wasnt it you who said that the shermann was the best tank in the world this times ?

maybe you love this shermann tank, but love only makes it not better, then it really was.

[Magpie_Oz]

Another weakness was the Panther used gasoline, not diesel and thus could burn fiercely if the gasoline ignited.

Actually they both used petrol engines, the M4 did have a few diesel variants. The Panthers' propensity to burst into flames was due more to the sealed engine bay, badly routed fuel lines and a seriously over worked engine.

The M4's propensity to burst into flames was due to poorly sited unarmoured ammo bins, that were later obviated by applying an appliqué aiming mark.

maybe you love this shermann tank, but love only makes it not better, then it really was.

I have it on good authority that All You Need Is Love.

[Charlie Marlow]

im not wondering, that you say this ........ wasnt it you who said that the shermann was the best tank in the world this times ?

maybe you love this shermann tank, but love only makes it not better, then it really was.

Nice try, but you need really need to learn to read. My guess is that you are intentially misstating what I said, but whatever.

I said quite plainly that the Sherman was the best tank in the specific time frame of 1942 to early 1943. I also specifically said that the Panther was arguably the best tank of the war (nothwithstanding its problems).

I am sorry that your reading comprehension is so poor.

[dieseltaylor]

Seems to me this is precisely the same discussion as in the CM*1 series. Panthers do well when the scenario has small maps with no flanking or very large maps that are flattish and limited cover.

In RL the kitties were never likely to benefit from these benefits of the scenario. So they had to worry about , flanks, planes, fuel , ammo etc.

Best tank of the war for the western front would be the Comet : }

[Magpie_Oz]

Best tank of the war for the western front would be the Comet : }

Finally !

[Charlie Marlow]

Seems to me this is precisely the same

Best tank of the war for the western front would be the Comet : }

I know you joke, but the real best tanks of the war in the technical sense that they were fielded prior to Germany's surrender were ones that only saw limited or no action. The Pershing and Centurion were the basis for Western tank design for the next 30 plus years for a reason.

EDIT. I stand corrected. The Centurion didn't make it to Mainland Europe until after the war. Guess the M26 is the best WWII tank after all.

[Magpie_Oz]

Centurion was far superior. Witnessed by it still being in service many, many years after the Pershing was gone.

[Charlie Marlow]

Centurion was far superior. Witnessed by it still being in service many, many years after the Pershing was gone.

The argument between the Pershing and Centurion would be an angels on the head of a pin type.

M26 Pershing with new engine is the M46. Add redesigned turret = M47 Patton. M48 and M60 were evolutionary redesigns.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Best tank of the war for the western front would be the Comet : }

With vertical armor? In 1945 :eek: The Pershing had better armor and a better gun. It did lose out on mobility

[Magpie_Oz]

M26 Pershing with new engine is the M46. Add redesigned turret = M47 Patton. M48 and M60 were evolutionary redesigns.

Where as the Centurion served up until the Second Gulf War in more or less the same form as it started it was just upgraded over time, the Pershing / Patton lines were considerable redesigns.

[TrailApe]

best WWII tank

OH DEAR oh deary dear.

Pulls up comfy chair and lines up 6 modules of beer, opens the pop corn.

This should be interesting

[Vark]

In real life the Panthers inability to move long distances by itself necessitated movement by rail with all its attendant vulnerabilities. Often, on the Eastern Front they were moved so rapidly to stem various breakthroughs they never had an opportunity to establish proper radio nets or coordinate with the defence. Of course this is never spoken of in the interminable uber kitty combat accounts that populate most books on the subject/theatre, talking of which most 60's-80's books on anything German accentuated the positive and diminished the negative.

Finally, can we please stop judging any military equipment using the very limited parameters of theoretical performance, as the Israelis say, you could swap the equipment use in 67-73 and they would still have achieved roughly the same result. Boring things like logistics rule armoured conflicts, rarely the actual equipment used, though whether that is true today is another matter. Give the Germans Panther II's and they still would have lost, no tank could save them from the whirlwinds approaching from east and west.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I'd give the Centurian the nod over the Pershing. But it didn't enter service until 1946

[Vark]

Centurion was prefered by the IDF for the Golan as it was far better able to deal with difficult terrain, especially rocky inclines, Patton preferred for the desert as its suspension was too fragile.

[Charlie Marlow]

Where as the Centurion served up until the Second Gulf War in more or less the same form as it started it was just upgraded over time, the Pershing / Patton lines were considerable redesigns.

You are probably correct after the M47. I'll give the win to the Centurion.

Though by GW II, the Centurion really was not a viable MBT against other modern designs.

[Magpie_Oz]

You are probably correct after the M47. I'll give the win to the Centurion.

Though by GW II, the Centurion really was not a viable MBT against other modern designs.

It wasn't used as an MBT it was an AVRE, however in the GWII many of the Iraqii tanks were T54/55 and T62, designs which the Centurion had previously bested.

[MengJiao]

Often, on the Eastern Front they were moved so rapidly to stem various breakthroughs they never had an opportunity to establish proper radio nets or coordinate with the defence. Of course this is never spoken of in the interminable uber kitty combat accounts that populate most books on the subject/theatre...

The radio net thing may never make it into tactical games. You'd need a whole new level of parameters focused on things before the tactical event and this sort of thing has to be handled by scenario designers at the moment.

So I think all the Panthers I have deployed have been on some kind of radio net. I did deploy a demoralized batch of Panthers (low motivation, exhausted survivors facing a counter-attack), but they did just as well as the more motivated crews as did the demoralized M10s since both do best shooting from over 600-700 meters.

[Vark]

The radio net thing may never make it into tactical games. You'd need a whole new level of parameters focused on things before the tactical event and this sort of thing has to be handled by scenario designers at the moment.

Ah, we might have had this had not CM campaigns died the death, then the German player would have seen the reality of fielding over-engineered, over-heavy, unreliable tanks with a threadbare logistic system under constant danger of interdiction.

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, I personally would LOVE to get very detailed radio net simulations into the game. But wow... that would be a whole game within a game. Plus, most people would hate playing with it

Steve

[Magpie_Oz]

Yeah, I personally would LOVE to get very detailed radio net simulations into the game. But wow... that would be a whole game within a game. Plus, most people would hate playing with it

Steve

I can see it now, a 600 post thread on how the German Ha5K39b was the greatest radio set in the known universe and why it was defeated by the inferior but mass produced British WS-No 38 Mk-1.

It is only ever the names that change.

[gunnergoz]

Yeah, I personally would LOVE to get very detailed radio net simulations into the game. But wow... that would be a whole game within a game. Plus, most people would hate playing with it

Steve

I wonder why?

[Destraex1]

You made me laugh Magpie.

[Magpie_Oz]

I wonder why?

As an old signaller Gozzy, that diagram gives me wood.

[Jarink]

As an old signaller Gozzy, that diagram gives me wood.

As an old electronic warfare troop, me too!

Only a dozen or so nets to find, copy, DF and jam? Woo Hoo!