courage and fortitude help

[Agua]

As I said, there's no amount of smoke or split squad timing that will enable you to get enough infantry across that bridge in combat effective condition to grind down that deep defense. It's possible to get a draw or minor victory, but your force is going to be in bad shape for the remaining missions.

I tried the mission again last night and incorporated some of the conversation with Womble and my own hindsight. First, it appears the sympathetic explosion from blowing the V in the wire eliminates any mines which would have any effect on tanks, so marking the mines in a "no inf" crossing is useless. Second, the ATG locations had changed from the prior go, so I had to bring a tank forward to the edge of the village a couple times to draw out the ATGs, but it worked. No reloads or saves. Another Total Victory, with only 11 KIA and 15 Wounded (which was due largely to a blind AI arty strike back in the field on the left behind the treeline where I'd moved all inf and support).

[Edited to include the following:] re: "marking mines .. useless". That refers to the front minefield. The minefield on the other side of the bridge would need to be discovered unless you just immediately shunt the tanks to the right once you clear the bridge.

[womble]

So, last night I began round two. I was able to get my pioneers up to the bridge, they blew the wire in three places. I was then able to rush two entire platoons to the far side of the stream before the arty began dropping (I know, I couldn't believe it either).

If you crack on with it, you can get the wire blown and the first couple of platoons through before it's really light enough for artillery to be called (i.e before any HQs become aware there are any units near to a TRP that need a helping of mortars).

...crossing was not without difficulty. Although I had blown the wire . . . it seemed to make absolutely no difference in the way the troops attempted to make the crossing. It appears that the AI pathfinding was ATROCIOUS.

The only way I managed to get troops to do what I wanted (which was not use the bridge, since I didn't want them spotted) was to lay out pretty much every single waypoint. It was a painful, nasty exercise in camera positioning because the bridge model, or something about the way it's embedded in the terrain in this particular map, makes it really hard to find the action point you want to click on unless you get just the right viewing angle. Every team of every platoon that crossed that stream needed a good half-dozen waypoints, because even if you are using the bridge, there are mines to sidestep and if you don't force the waypoints the pathing strays through even known minefields, losing you men by the fistful.

Now I have my guys in defilade on the far side of the bank. Trying to figure out what to do next.

Keep moving. Do. Not. Stop. Until your troops are a good distance from the bridge, they're vulnerable to instakill mortar strikes. Even once you're out of the TRP fast-fire zone, keep a weather eye open for incoming spotting rounds and make sure you move to keep out from under them.

And spank anything that you can spot with your mortars (hopefully you've gotten your FOs somewhere useful).

Really aggravated with the pathfinding...

I'm hoping this is largely because of the way the bridge is set up in this scenario. Haven't played much with bridges yet, and I will be really disappointed if they all bork pathfinding and action point selection as badly as this one.

...failure of the pioneers.

I think pioneers are pretty much relegated to blowing crap up, for me. Maybe if I need to get some infantry through an unobserved minefield and I've got 15 minutes to do it in, I'll bother with marking mines again, but probably not. I'll just have them Slow through and lose 1 or 2 as the price for saving 10 minutes on the operation.

Also, when the artillery began to move in on the enemy trp's at the bridge . . . shouldn't it have helped to remove the wire and clear the minefields? I'd like to know if my reinforcements are going to behave the same way as they attempt to cross.

I think it takes quite a lot of HE to cut wire and sympathetically detonate minefields, and it never seemed to concentrate on the obstacles, just my troops

And yes, your follow-on infantry will jigger about like crazy foo's if you're not pretty draconian with your waypoints. But you'll need to be smoking up the road with your Shermans' smoke mortars by that point, as it'll be light enough for the MG fire they suck up to rather more than sporadic... :-/

[womble]

As I said, there's no amount of smoke or split squad timing that will enable you to get enough infantry in combat effective condition to enable you to grind down that deep defense. It's possible to get a draw or minor victory, but your force is going to be in bad shape for the remaining missions.

I got a Total Victory with an infantry crossing, but some of my platoons are a little mangled.

...Total Victory, with only 11 KIA and 15 Wounded...

Most impressive.

...(which was due largely to a blind AI arty strike back in the field on the left behind the treeline where I'd moved all inf and support).

That sort of thing is the reason I kept on trying to push with my infantry. I had zero confidence that if I 'hid' them all at the back I wouldn't just have them turned to dogmeat by a 'lucky' barrage. At least with them a bit spread out I could hope to run away from any incoming, and the AI's priority for HEavy rain would be the units with the most room to maneuver.

In the end, though, it does look like this scenario is entirely winnable using just the Engineers, Tanks and the Arty (including the FOs). My strategy, if I were to do it again, would be:

1. Sneak the Engineers to the first wire under cover of darkness to blow it and hopefully get rid of the AT mines under it by sympathetic detonation.
   
2. Get the FOs forward to near the river under cover of darkness
   
3. Wait for the tanks to arrive
   
4. Use tank HE to take down the walls in front of the sandbag positions that the FOs have sighted
   
5. Call mortars on all the sandbag positions
   
6. Draw the ATGs with the tanks, use tank HE to kill them (task a mortar to them too, but mostly the gun will be gone by the time the mission would fire, so you'll be able to ceasefire 'em)
   
7. Wait for 105s
   
8. Call a linear, Heavy, Maximum bombardment on the rear hill with all the 105mm arty you get.
   
9. Once that's done (if the AI hasn't already surrendered) cross the bridge with your tanks and mop up with MGs and any 75mm HE remaining. As Agua says, the map's probably open enough for your grouped Tanks to be able to defend themselves against Infantry AT. You could send your engineers with the tanks to blow the second wire and any AT mines under it where you want to cross it, which might mean your tanks don't need to leave the road as much and risk bogging in useless places.
   

[Agua]

@ Womble. Your total victory is impressive as well. I'm really surprised - not by you, but that it can be done with anything other than shreds of inf remaining (to the extent that Total would be impossible due to friendly casualties).

Those 105s are deadly accurate on specific point targeting. In the last attempt, each ATG was wiped out within the first four rounds. Of course when you call a cease fire, another four rounds or so fall, but there was still plenty left to blast the hell out of the first line of defense on linear targets. Everything else, 81s / 60s, put to use against stray foxholes, and the hill.

[Fetchez la Vache]

I don't think there is a pathfinding 'bug' on this map around the bridge. It's just the marshy terrain around the bridge causes your men to move very slowly. The AI will try to move your men as quickly as possible to the next waypoint, which means using the bridge if you have plotted a long (ish) move. Just use a series of closely spaced waypoints through the marsh either side of the bridge and you should be okay.

I quite enjoyed this map, in a funny sort of way. After playing the Road to Montebourge campaign I got used to low casualty rates and husbanding my PBI. Faced with a bridge assault at a choke point you have to develop a certain thick skin and accept many of your pixeltruppen are going to get killed/wounded. I lost about 70 men in total, most from mines and arty.

[womble]

@ Womble. Your total victory is impressive as well. I'm really surprised - not by you, but that it can be done with anything other than shreds of inf remaining (to the extent that Total would be impossible due to friendly casualties).

It helps that I finished it before the third company turned up, so they took no casualties at all, and I had the burgeoning MG line run like sissies every time some spotting rounds landed more than 50m the wrong side of the river, so all those MG crews and ammo bearers were entirely unscratched. Still, squirreling the crunchies away and letting the hardskins deal with it seems like a better route, in all, if you can make sure no mortars are going to find 'em. I don't know how much my actual line platoons really contributed to the kill tally (needed to force a surrender). About half the kills were from tanks, and the other half, presumably, from arty, cos the infantry really only racked up about 20, including all the MMG/HMG teams.

Those 105s are deadly accurate on specific point targeting. In the last attempt, each ATG was wiped out within the first four rounds.

Indeed. I used a short mission from each battery to winkle out (i.e. turn the foxholes into shell holes... ) the last MG nests out as I'd exhausted the off-map 81mm in the first mission... , and the tanks use up more rounds, but they do it before the 105s would have even finished receiving their mission, and, I think before the 105s are even online, so you can start those M4s rolling. Once you've tidied up the Infantry AT you only need a couple of 75mm rounds for each bunker; can clean those up before the 105s are available too.

I think I was also too tightly wedded to the concept of keeping infantry and armour together; a platoon/quartet of tanks is quite good at watching each others' backs for ambushing infantry, at least AI controlled ambushing infantry. They could have gone ahead much faster if they'd not had to cover the advancing infantry with smoke.

[TheBlackHand]

OK, I am officially f*cking DONE with this battle. Total Victory? Before the third company even shows up? 11 KIA and 15 Wounded? No offense man, but I simply don't believe it. How could you POSSIBLY move your guys fast enough, under fire, through horrid pathing to accomplish this type of victory in that amount of time? 11 KIA and only fifteen wounded? With all of that German artillery and limited freedom of movement once your'e across the bridge (as if that is an easy task). Really? ELEVEN KIA?!?! Amazing. I lose at least eleven KIA with every volley of psychically registered German artillery.

I've tried this scenario a second time and I've had only slightly better results. Perhaps after playign it five times, I might have it sorted out enough to have anyone left to rush that final hill with.

I'm not going to do that though. I don't have the patience for it. The pathing through and around that bridge is a F*CKING JOKE. Once you make it through that invisible maze, movement through the swamp is practically impossible so it's pretty much hey diddle diddle, right up the middle. When the sun comes up, the seemingly unlimited German artillery comes out and . . . lights out.

I pulled the plug on this bullsh*t when my second tank bogged while making some unexplained movment in and around the bridge. He actually tried to CROSS the bridge, although I had given him expicit commands to move AROUND the bridge. Did I mention that the other tank did two spins before deciding to disregard my pathing instructions to move up on the road and follow the other tank right into the drink? I didn't, well, it happened.

Seriously, this is just the second battle that I've played in the game (besides the training scenarios). Doesn't bode well for the future. Are all of the battles this effing IMPOSSIBLE and flat out FRUSTRATING?

BTW, I'm playing on Warrior difficulty. I was considering bumping it up to the next level but, Jesus . . . I think I better just go back to playing Pong.

[Agua]

OK, I am officially f*cking DONE with this battle. Total Victory? Before the third company even shows up? 11 KIA and 15 Wounded? No offense man, but I simply don't believe it. How could you POSSIBLY move your guys fast enough, under fire, through horrid pathing to accomplish this type of victory in that amount of time? 11 KIA and only fifteen wounded? With all of that German artillery and limited freedom of movement once your'e across the bridge (as if that is an easy task). Really? ELEVEN KIA?!?! Amazing. I lose at least eleven KIA with every volley of psychically registered German artillery.

I've tried this scenario a second time and I've had only slightly better results. Perhaps after playign it five times, I might have it sorted out enough to have anyone left to rush that final hill with.

I'm not going to do that though. I don't have the patience for it. The pathing through and around that bridge is a F*CKING JOKE. Once you make it through that invisible maze, movement through the swamp is practically impossible so it's pretty much hey diddle diddle, right up the middle. When the sun comes up, the seemingly unlimited German artillery comes out and . . . lights out.

I pulled the plug on this bullsh*t when my second tank bogged while making some unexplained movment in and around the bridge. He actually tried to CROSS the bridge, although I had given him expicit commands to move AROUND the bridge. Did I mention that the other tank did two spins before deciding to disregard my pathing instructions to move up on the road and follow the other tank right into the drink? I didn't, well, it happened.

Seriously, this is just the second battle that I've played in the game (besides the training scenarios). Doesn't bode well for the future. Are all of the battles this effing IMPOSSIBLE and flat out FRUSTRATING?

BTW, I'm playing on Warrior difficulty. I was considering bumping it up to the next level but, Jesus . . . I think I better just go back to playing Pong.

If you read my posts, I didn't even use any infantry. I advocate a tank only crossing of the bridge. Yes, 11 KIA, and 15 wounded.

One more time. During setup, move EVERYTHING behind the treeline on the left or way over on the right for movement during the first turn,

EXCEPT 1 squad of pioneers, and the two FOs.

First movement orders - run on FAST [edit] one SQUAD of [end edit] pioneers up to the V of wire from the front of the bridge - just run their asses straight down the road with the terminal waypoint at the front of the V. Issue a blast command accross the V. Once they blow up that section of wire, run them hard to the left, then straight back to the treeline with all the other inf in hiding There will be no need to mark mines because they will have blown them up when they detonated the V in the wire.

First movement orders - Veteran FO - there is a rocky high spot in the plowed field on the left in front of teh stream. Run your Vet FO on the high spot, on the front side of it. Give them a short covered arc. Reg FO - run them hard to the right, avoiding the road, and straight over to the high spot on the field to the right. Actually, just a little forward of the highest spot. There is a fence with a tree or two there. Actually, behind the tree a little ways. If you eyeball it, you'll see the rise of the land. You want your FO on the forward end of the highest spot. Give him a covered arc too. In fact, you can get him close to that spot during setup without having to scurry him across the back half of the map. Again, eyeball it.

Run, again avoiding the road, run a couple MG teams over to a little hedge on the right side of the map sort of fronting the stream. They're going to get creamed - that along with the ammo bears comprised 8-9 of the 11 killed (the other two were the engineers who blew themselves up through sympathetic detonation of the mines that were formerly under the wire you blew up above).

Now, sit back and do nothing. Absolutely nothing. Let the sun brighten up the landscape for better observation. When any reinforcements come on, quickly RUN them to some cover before the AI gets any bright ideas.

When the TANKS come in, quickly move them back to the left hand side as well, and get them there in reverse as needed, with facing changes, so that they're ready to get on the road when needed.

The MGs you moved to the hedge should bring up some german units in the front of the two plowed fields. Hopefully, an ATG gun or two will pop up as well. I still advocate do nothing, even if you have located the ATGS, until the 105s come in. As it gets lighter, your FOs and / or the MGs will start to locate more and more units. IF you see sand bags of the ATG emplacements, then go ahead and call a single point strike with one of the 105s on it. Do not move your tanks out until all ATGs you can locate have been destroyed. The 105s are VERY accurate, so be ready for your FO to order cease fire as soon as an ATG is destroyed.

If by the time the 105s arrive you haven't located any ATGs, I'd still give it a few more minutes for the sun to rise a little more. If after that, you still haven't located all the ATGS, or you have located less than all the ATGS but destroyed all that you have located, pick the tank with the -2 commander (he's the worst of the lot and if he gets blown up, its the least loss - though I didn't lose a tank). Give him a move command down the road - make sure you don't have his icon selected so you will be able to get the benefit of seeing the information observed by ALL units within LOS. For certain any of the 76 PAKs remaining will raise up at this point, and may well even fire a shot - possibly hitting Mr. -2. Unless you're unlucky, it won't destroy that unit. Once a shot is fired by any ATG, hit pause immediately, cancel all orders to that tank, put him in reverse. Look for the ATG - or for the sandbags. If you don't see it, then keep him in reverse so that he'll find a spot out of LOS. Repeat this process, sending him down the road, and watching for an ATG to pop up, then reversing as necessary. I only had to do it once due to a change in the location of the ATGs from the second go round, otherwise, I already knew basically where the ATGs were, and just waited for them to pop up. You know there is an ATG on the other side of that copse of woods, be looking for the sand bag. If you still can't find that last ATG, go ahead with your tanks, giving long move orders, down the road, and across the bridge. Issue the orders one at a time, in real time, so that there is spacing between them and they don't bunch up. Just long movement orders, with one waypoint at each big turn, then one at the far end of the bridge, then another one immediately off to the right and slightly forward so there is room for all on the right after they clear the bridge. I don't know what you were trying to do, but you want the tanks to cross the bridge, not go through the swamp.

As soon as each tank clears the bridge, go hard right, off the road. Do not go any further on the road, just clear the bridge and straight off to the right. Start sending them forward, off the road, on hunt. IF you haven't located that last ATG, then send Mr. -2 forward on the right side of the road. That ATG is going to pop up, at the latest, once the first tank gets within its LOS, so be on the look out for it, and immediately pause and reverse the tank that gets fired upon. Now, with the other 105 howitzer, again, give a point target on that last ATG or the sandbag. Again, be ready to immediately ceasefire once its destroyed.

You now have all of your 105s, except for the few you used to take out the ATGS - approximately 12-15 rounds total inclusive of the ones which were in the air when you called for cease fire. You have all your 81mm, because you haven't fired a round. Finally, you have all your 60mm as well, and your tanks across the river. I would NOT use my tanks to try to take out those ATGs. Womble may be great at this, but I'd let the arty do it because the tanks are key to killing everything across the river and I don't want to risk them.

I say use the 105s to blast the hell out of the units in the front lines of the plowed fields on both sides of the roads. I choose thise because it will kill their asses and the barrage lasts a LONG TIME. plenty of time for you to get your tanks forward, on hunt or slow, to that last line of defense along hedges before you get to the hill. Use your 81s in linear barrages on the hill, full, max, whatever. Use your 60s to hit any odd foxhole that wasn't covered with the 105s - I think there are a couple outside the plowed field on the left. You should probably have a 60 or so left - use those on the hill as well or better yet, along the last few hedgerows where the final defensive line is at.

Now, you should be driving towards the second line of defense, with the 105s pulverizing the hell out of everything in the fields beside you. Some of those may pop up and run in panic - let your tanks mow those down on hunt. You've got plenty of time here. Once you get towards that last set of hedgerows prior to the hill, here is a shreck on the left of that last line, get behind the hedgerows, with your tanks en masses so that they cover each other. Stay a good distance away from the hedges. Proced with cleaning them up.

Move towards the hill. Do not enter the green objective portion, just move your tanks on hunt or slow, along the front of the objective and along the sides of it. Thoroughly. The AI should surrender. If it doesn't, you can choose either carefully go into the green colored objective area and hunt down anything cowering which is left and/or send tanks down to mop up. Hint - a lot of the broken units will have run to the very, very back, behind the green objective area. You can mop up quickly on those by staying near the back. Alternatively, or simultaneously, you can break off a tank to go on a hunt back along the front of the plowed fields to wipe out anything left. The AI will surrender. You don't have to occupy any objectives or anything, it will flat out surrender.

I thought about taking a screenshot of the victory screen, but that's just not my style.

[womble]

OK, I am officially f*cking DONE with this battle. Total Victory? Before the third company even shows up? 11 KIA and 15 Wounded? No offense man, but I simply don't believe it.

I can send you the save file if you like. PM me. Agua's explained his low KIA/WIA level; mine was somewhat higher; I took only a percent point or two less casualties overall, IIRC, than was needed to achieve the "< 25% casualties" condition, but you get a Total Victory if the enemy surrender, even if you don't make that parameter.

How could you POSSIBLY move your guys fast enough, under fire, through horrid pathing to accomplish this type of victory in that amount of time? With all of that German artillery and limited freedom of movement once your'e across the bridge (as if that is an easy task). I lose at least eleven KIA with every volley of psychically registered German artillery.

I can help answer this, since I'm the one talking about having done this; not the low casualties overall - you're conflating mine and Agua's approaches, but how to mostly dodge the arty.

1. force the pathing. Plot every action spot you want your troops to move through in the bridge area. You can plot every other spot once you've moved 10-20m away from the bridge, but you have to force them to stay really close to the edge of the water as you spread them out along the river, and they'll choose the dryer path if you let them. With waypoints so close together, they don't hang about very long sorting themselves out at each waypoint, as they've not had time to get all straggled out, so having lots of wp won't slow you down as much as you'd expect.
   
2. Move them Quick, with rests for a minute when they hit Tired.
   
3. Do. Not. Stop to fight. I broke off the lateral too early with one platoon, and started working up the hill with pauses at short Quick waypoints to return fire. That platoon got Broken. The platoon on the other side had as much HE thrown at it, but it pretty much managed to scurry out from under the spotting rounds.
   
4. Split every squad. I don't know how essential this is, but when you're trying to force the men to slog through the mud when the AI knows there's a faster path "just over there in the MGs' sights", working every team individually means less men die from DF.
   
5. Start in the cover of darkness. As soon as the initial bombardment has stopped (T-plus-5), get your engineers down to the wire, with the first two platoons on their shoulders. You still have to hustle, but even moving your troops through the morass, you can get out from under the first bombardment.
   
6. Have some distractions further back. The AI tried several times to bombard my assembling forces on the road leading down to the bridge, or my ever-increasing gunline of tripod-mounted MGs. Spotting rounds gave me the time to run the frack away though, and those gaps in bombardment of my nascent bridgehead gave the troops time to move further away from the TRPs.
   
7. Don't advance with tired troops. One of the platoons I tried to cross with had gotten a bit frayed by playing hokey-cokey with successive barrages. That fatigue meant they couldn't move fast enough through the mud to get out from under one short barrage, which ruined them for the scenario, even though it didn't kill many.
   
8. Keep your troops in C2. If they lose a Looie, the incidental morale effects of nearby bombardments and MGs, combined with even light casualties, will slow them down enough that they won't be able to get out of the TRP zone. Send your Coy HQ up with the line platoons, so there's a backup in case of unlucky mines or snipers or some such.
   
9. Once you're ready to go with Tanks (ATGs good and dead) use their smoke to cover for supporting infantry and engineers. Use mortar smoke if you can, but 105 missions are best dedicated to killing the bad guys. Indirect HE is better at that than any number of crunchies those rounds would save used as smoke.
   

Having said all that, the effective infantry I got to the firing line just short of the hill probably wasn't significant. Satisfying, perhaps, but certainly not enough to reduce the trench system, even with what? a dozen? tripod MGs to try and suppress the dug-in MG42s. And there was no smoke left to shepherd even K Coy's 3rd Platoon up the road (I think - it's a few days now since I finished it). I had 12 HE rounds left in my Shermans, and I think I might've had a few of K-Coy's 60mm left.

I've tried this scenario a second time and I've had only slightly better results. Perhaps after playign it five times, I might have it sorted out enough to have anyone left to rush that final hill with.

I restarted twice, I think, when I realised things about the world or the way the game interprets it, like the cover of darkness/light mist, or the possibility of circumscribing the nightmare that is AP selection and pathing around the bridge. I reloaded turns where the Artificial Unintelligence didn't behave as I hoped it would, in order to correct my laziness. I never reloaded just because something that worked mechanically as I expected wasn't the best thing to do (that move-and-fire lateral, for example, and crossing the bridge with the tired platoon). But you'll never have enough infantry to 'rush' that final hill. One thing I'm gradually learning into my bones is that you don't have to go there to control the territory. You have little friends called bullets and shells to do that for you.

I'm not going to do that though. I don't have the patience for it. The pathing through and around that bridge is a F*CKING JOKE.

Oh, Amen to that, brother.

I pulled the plug on this bullsh*t when my second tank bogged while making some unexplained movment in and around the bridge. He actually tried to CROSS the bridge, although I had given him expicit commands to move AROUND the bridge.

Meep. That ground looked like prime "bogged-immobilised with no line of fire" territory to me. Rather risk mine-immobilisation at least somewhere you can shoot off your remaining ammo.

Did I mention that the other tank did two spins before deciding to disregard my pathing instructions to move up on the road and follow the other tank right into the drink? I didn't, well, it happened.

First time I tried to have a tank cross the bridge, I gave it a waypoint in the middle of the span. The tank fell through the bridge, futzed around trying to get past the next bridge pier, then levitated back up onto the bridge and rattled from side to side between the parapets to the other end. Took it nearly 4 minutes. I restarted a couple of turns later. Subsequently, I made the bridge crossing one leg, between waypoints carefully straight and based on solid ground, with no trouble.

Seriously, this is just the second battle that I've played in the game (besides the training scenarios). Doesn't bode well for the future. Are all of the battles this effing IMPOSSIBLE and flat out FRUSTRATING?

No. I'd only really played a few more games of this than you (A Delaying Action, and a QB vs the AI to learn some more about mechanics, as well as the demo scenarios - I'd played the CMSF demo so skipped the training campaign) when I got to being Schooled. I'm still finishing C&F and haven't played anything else simultaneously. Some of the other campaign missions have been frustrating. In fact all of them have had an element of frustration built into them (why does Sneider persist on leading with his most beat-up companies when I and K Coy have bled and died to keep K Coy in good, nay, perfect shape? Why don't we get proper ammo resupply when we're expected to assault dug-in positions? Why is our pre-battle info so lame? Why have you sent TDs to an infantry fight? Why are the Pioneers in the third echelon of reinforcements when assaulting a position dug-in to bocage? Why is the heavy artillery never ready for T-time?) and I think others seem designed to test your ability to guess whether you've done 'enough' to progress, because achieving a Total Victory will shred you so bad you can't win the last scenario. I'll be writing a mostly critical review of my experiences/opinions of the campaign when I eventually finish it. As an evocation of the tribulations of a pair of captains (Tyson and Young, I & K Coy COs) working under an incompetent Major Sneider for a murderous Colonel Wyche, it's credible. If the Americans had really bungled things this badly, the Nazis would still be in control of Europe.

BTW, I'm playing on Warrior difficulty.

Me too. The higher difficulties just seem from their manual descriptions to make playing the game much more irritating, so I've not yet bothered with Elite or Iron.

There are some interesting tactical problems thrown up by the upcoming scenarios in the campaign. I'd recommend you give the "Armour and Arty" approach to "School" one more go. Or take the bridge and burn all your indirect HE at least - you'll probably get at least a draw. If you preserve your lead companies a bit better than I did, Bumper Cars will be a doddle.

[womble]

First movement orders - run on FAST [edit] one SQUAD of [end edit] pioneers up to the V of wire from the front of the bridge - just run their asses straight down the road with the terminal waypoint at the front of the V.

Did the AI's plan not include an instant bombardment of the road area with heavy mortars? It looked to me like any charge down the road in the first 5 minutes was pretty much suicide. Not doubting, just asking. Also, I used one squad split into two teams to get rid of both stretches of wire.

[qutoe]First movement orders - Veteran FO - there is a rocky high spot in the plowed field on the left in front of teh stream.

[TheVulture]

Did the AI's plan not include an instant bombardment of the road area with heavy mortars? It looked to me like any charge down the road in the first 5 minutes was pretty much suicide. Not doubting, just asking. Also, I used one squad split into two teams to get rid of both stretches of wire.

There are TRPs all over the place around the bridge, so arty can fall on you pretty quickly there. But only if they have uncommitted artillery assets. If you happen to have left squads lying around in the open to temp the AI to dropping fire missions on those positions, then all their assets are busy and they don't have anything to fire at the bridge TRPs.

[Agua]

Did the AI's plan not include an instant bombardment of the road area with heavy mortars? It looked to me like any charge down the road in the first 5 minutes was pretty much suicide. Not doubting, just asking. Also, I used one squad split into two teams to get rid of both stretches of wire.

Not on any of my last two runs. I played the scenario three times, with no saves or restarts. It may have the first time, but I know it didn't the second and third times. I assumed it was due to the darkness because within probably less than one minute after the wire was blown, the barrage started. The second time, I'd had pioneers still in the bridge area and the bomboardment was there. The final time, after I'd rushed the squad off to the left, the bombardment landed on the road, between the bridge and the final bit of hedge that borders the road.

[qutoe]First movement orders - Veteran FO - there is a rocky high spot in the plowed field on the left in front of teh stream.

I looked at that and thought it was too obvious and bound to get some HE attention, but it never did.

[TheBlackHand]

All of this is very interesting and I'm glad that nobody took my rant personally. I may . . . may try this one again (and again), just to see if I can ever get it right. I will use a mixture of everyones winning strategy.

I'm still very skeptical that anyone could actually come close to winning this scenario on a first try, without being incredibly lucky.

I actually like that the game throws in some challenges, such as poor leadership, seemingly unattainable goals and iffy equipment but this particular battle seems like a combination of all of those and then some.

[Agua]

Seriously, this is just the second battle that I've played in the game (besides the training scenarios). Doesn't bode well for the future. Are all of the battles this effing IMPOSSIBLE and flat out FRUSTRATING?

Well, using the approach I offered, it wasn't difficult at all. BUT, I only came up with that because a traditional combined arms approach to victory without near complete destruction of my own force appeared impossible. Womble's perseverance demonstrates otherwise, but that is for more micromanagment than I have any desire to undertake.

ASSUMING someone takes the traditional approach, it appears to me to be about the most painful mission of any which shipped on the CD.

I've played every stand alone mission on the CD, from both sides where recommended, and this is the last of the campaigns I am still working through having finished the others.

There about 3 other missions I've run across which are pretty tough. The most difficult, in my opinion, is A Delaying Action. To me, it was far, far more difficult than this one. I was saving games and reloading saves like it was a first person shooter on the most difficult level. But, trying to view School objectively, without the benefit of hindsight, taking an infantry centric approach, School is probably more difficult. I've !@#$3d about Delaying Action way too many times and MikeyD probably wants me strangled so I'll shut up about it.

In The Road to Montebourg Campaign, Hell in the Hedgerows CAN be very difficult, or it can be satisfyingly challenging, depending upon which AI plan you draw and which approach you take. THAT was one I ended up with a draw the first time, then took a different axis of advance the second time, and cleaned its clock. That second approach I took, was a challenge, but not one that was just overwhelming. The first approach, with the AI plan I drew, was probably not as painful as School in terms of losses, but achieving a total victory was probably equally unobtainable.

The third fairly difficult mission is also in the Road to Montebourg Campaign and I believe it is styled Le Ham, but it is not in the same league with an infantry oriented approach to School.

I've read there is one more later in this Campaign that is also a !@#$@.

Don't get discouraged. I started the game with the single missions, alphabetically, and the first up on the menu was, you guessed it, "A Delaying Action". So, I know where you're coming from, but if you don't want to try the amour only crossing, then just move on to some other scenario, because they are nowhere near as difficult as School.

[Agua]

I'm still very skeptical that anyone could actually come close to winning this scenario on a first try, without being incredibly lucky.

Agree. I think a completely blind go at this one, having read no spoilers or hints, is pretty much a discouragingly improbable proposition.

[Bonxa]

I did get through this one on the first go at it. But it was very bloody and made the rest of the campaign, shall we say interesting?

I had something like 200+ KIA and 200+ WIA. The rifle companies were decimated and it was only when i brought up some of the MG units to the very front that I got enough momentum to carry through. Maybe it was my experience from CMMC2 plowing forward with large amounts of siberian infantry that made me go on despite all the setbacks from german arty.

Oh, and I had my first tank attempting to cross the bridge get immobilized on a mine. Didn't know you could blast the wire and get any mines to go away with it...

[dakuth]

I got through it, charging up the hill and forced a surrender.

I had to reload and restart 3 times I think, giving up when I lost entire companies to TRPs with no Germans yet killed. On my 3rd try though, I made it all the way up - the tanks were vital. Also, all three of my companies are completely chewed up. I completely forgot the overarching campaign idea, and no I'm progressively running into more and more trouble in later missions and I blame this hill mission for all my woes.

The one main non-spoiler hint I can give is: If your position becomes untenable... call for a cease fire. It's realistic.

[Gustang]

Didn't know you could blast the wire and get any mines to go away with it...

Yes, but I lost about half of my split team of engineers on the first wire obstacle upon detonation. They apparently didn't take the additional explosives into consideration (nor had they found the mines prior). I believe this also happened on the second wire obstacle, midfield, even after the mines had been marked.

Are explosives the only method for removing the wire? I'm not sure what I could have done differently.

[Agua]

Tanks will crush wire. It adds to the cumulative damage to your tracks though along with traversing hedges, low walls, fences. This scenario in particular is rough on tracks and you can end up with immobilized tanks simply from running over too much rough stuff.

[womble]

Tanks will crush wire. It adds to the cumulative damage to your tracks though along with traversing hedges, low walls, fences. This scenario in particular is rough on tracks and you can end up with immobilized tanks simply from running over too much rough stuff.

And if the wire in question has a mine underneath it (which is what is blasticatin' yer engies), that in itself will have a good chance of stopping the tank in its, well, possibly out of its tracks.

[Gustang]

And if the wire in question has a mine underneath it (which is what is blasticatin' yer engies), that in itself will have a good chance of stopping the tank in its, well, possibly out of its tracks.

Well, in my case, one of my tanks was stopped (immobile) after the wire had been cleared because the wire/mine clearing satchel had left a rather large crater and they got stuck in it. Fortunately, he was one of the last to cross and still had a working gun and turret. Of course, their unhappiness increased with each barrage.

[TheBlackHand]

I just tried this battle again for the third and possibly, last time (how many effing times did the designer expect a player to play it?). This time I cheated by bombing the sh*t out of the gun positions because . . . by this time, I knew exactly where they were.

Not much fun, definitely kills the immersion, but hey, at least I figured I'd get beyond this bullsh*t and advance the campaign . . . albeit, having known that I cheated. I don't feel too bad about it, knowing that the battle is pretty much unwinnable on a first go.

So . . . so far so good. Figure I'll need to get my tanks to the other side of the river so that I can move them along with the infantry up to the final hill (which is set to be pulverized any minute by my 105's). Might as well move them before moving the infantry since the coast is clear. I begin to move them across. Pretty soon, I proceed to lose ALL OF MY TANKS trying to get across that stupid bridge. Lost two of them to artillery because they couldn't pathfind worth a sh*t, depite the fact that I had painstaikingly plotted about a dozen waypoints for each one. The others futzed around until they all bogged/immobilized. In fact, they all futzed around the bridge area like they had not a clue what to do.

Which makes me wonder, did the game designer have a f*cking clue when they designed this BULLSH*T battle?

Yeah, I'm pissed. I think I have a right to be. This particular battle is practically unplayable, which renders the rest of the campaign practcially unplayable, correct?

Definitely not as advertised. A waste of time. No fun.

Yet, I continue to go back to it. Not out of enjoyment, really . . . it's just to see how bad it can get. Like rooting for a losing team.

I'm no programmer, but seriously, WTF is this? Are the tanks just NOT MEANT to get across the river? If so, why not mention it in the briefing? Say the crossing is just not suitable for armored vehicles or something. I don't appreciate the wasted time.

[Fetchez la Vache]

I sympathise and advise having a little break before tackling the Razorback Ridge mission then...

I don't mind losing battles. But I would have appreciated a Designer Note to the effect that we are to expect a very tricky battle and therefore do your best but no need to get a Victory result. I think the player benefits from a better understanding of the campaign at the Divisional level. Paper Tiger did this for Road to Montbourge to some extent and that helped me.

[TheBlackHand]

The infantry pathfinding was no better this time either. I managed to blow pretty much all of the wire away and yet . . . the infantry continued to run all up around over and through. They pretty much went everywhere I DIDN'T tell them to go. Thankfully I only sent the Pioneers over. Only lost a couple of them . . . but I sure as heck wasn't going to send any of the other platoons through that impossible mess.

Same thing with tanks. I'd give them a waypoint here, they'd go there. Some would just . . . not go anywhere.

No, I didn't rush them all up at one time. I should have stopped completely after the first two bogged . . . but at that point I wanted to see how bad it could get.

How did any of you guys manage to get your tanks to that other side?

It seems like a pure luck thing to me. I truly believe I tried every possible pathing point. None of them worked.

How is something like this programmed . . . and why? Seems ridiculous to me.

Anyway, I do want to play out every campaign on the disk (for now) so I'll give this another try tomorrow night. I think I'll start up at the save where my tanks arrive. I'll just keep them on the banks of the river (unless someone can give me the cheat code to get across the river). I'll run those 105's over the hill and hope to kill the German FO. After that, I'll send the rest of the infantry over . . . if there's any time left.

Totally lame way to get past this broken battle . . . but there doesn't seem to be any other option. (Good thing I'm not a game reviewer at this point. I would be giving it a 10 . . . as in "numba ten, da worst".)

[JonS]

I'm loving the irony of this thread's title.