US UBEr Halftrack

[Bastables]

Quiet! Don't give them any ideas ;p

Yeah Jesus no I'm still smarting over having to pay so much for Matrix's war in the east.

[bowlie]

Just out of interest can .50's kill shermans. On busting the bobcage my shermans keep dying and I'm not sure why. I know the infantry have at weapons. At what range are these effective? Same question for panzerfaust teams.

[gunnergoz]

Germans did not have their own .50's so if your Shermans are being hit (say in the rear engine louvres, the only place a .50 might conceivably penetrate,) it would be by friendly fire.

Most likely culprits are Shrecks and Fausts IMO.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Just out of interest can .50's kill shermans.

No, while the .50 round was originally intended as an AT weapon, by WWII it was no longer effective against tanks. Anything lighter than tanks, though, was fair game. EDIT: gunnergoz also pointed out something quite relevant, which is that the Germans don't have .50s anyway!

On busting the bobcage my shermans keep dying and I'm not sure why. I know the infantry have at weapons. At what range are these effective? Same question for panzerfaust teams.

My guess is either artillery or concealed AT guns. Panzerfausts have extremely short range; I believe most of them to be either 30 or 60 m. Panzerschrecks are longer ranged, although my guess is that if you didn't know what it was that killed your tanks it's probably either artillery or AT guns, since Panzerschrecks tend to get spotted rather quickly.

[bowlie]

Germans did not have their own .50's so if your Shermans are being hit (say in the rear engine louvres, the only place a .50 might conceivably penetrate,) it would be by friendly fire.

Most likely culprits are Shrecks and Fausts IMO.

ok cool. all they have are infantry, HMG and shar shooters but these things are blowing up like there is no tomorow. must be that. thanks

[womble]

ok cool. all they have are infantry, HMG and shar shooters but these things are blowing up like there is no tomorow. must be that. thanks

===Spoilers for Busting the Bocage===

==General Spoiler==

In BtB, there are more AT assets than that. Promise.

==Specific Spoiler==

There are 2 AT guns in the German force. On the default deployment, one has unexpected LOS from its position to the wooded field on the right flank before the first trench complex, IIRC. The other would probably have been spotted if it has a firing resolution, as it's much less well concealed.

[thejetset]

ok cool. all they have are infantry, HMG and shar shooters but these things are blowing up like there is no tomorow. must be that. thanks

Also, the German infantry is well endowed with AT weapons ... be careful. Your Sherman is in very high risk if it's within about 100m of a German Inf unit. They have nasty things like Panzerfausts which will make a bad day for any Sherman crew regardless of the range it was fired at so long as it hits.

[Speedy]

I'm quite happy with my German HT's and AC's, just ask NG Cavscout his AC and Stuart crews will tell you all about it.

[gunnergoz]

I'm quite happy with my German HT's and AC's, just ask NG Cavscout his AC and Stuart crews will tell you all about it.

I can believe that the 20mm (or better) armed SpW's and SpahW's can be good ambush weapons against other light armor, if they are properly sited. They can get side shots against the M5 and are lethal to H/T's and M8 scout cars at any aspect.

If and when they are discovered, however, they need to relocate out of sight in a hurry.

[SlapHappy]

The 222 Armored Car has proven to be extremely lethal against infantry in my experience in the game so far. The 20mm is accurate and deadly.

[Rex J.]

...in the rear engine louvres, the only place a .50 might conceivably penetrate...

In a game I was playing, a Panzer IV tried to pull away fast from a flanking Sherman, turning its rear to it in the process. The gunner missed twice but the commander put some .50 rounds through the engine immobilizing the Panzer.

[Sergei]

In a game I was playing, a Panzer IV tried to pull away fast from a flanking Sherman, turning its rear to it in the process. The gunner missed twice but the commander put some .50 rounds through the engine immobilizing the Panzer.

It looks to me like the 75mm main gun is what really immobilizes the tank, though... at 0:25.

[Rex J.]

It looks to me like the 75mm main gun is what really immobilizes the tank, though... at 0:25.

The main gun certainly finished the job, but I'm sure it was the .50 cal that caused the tank to stop abruptly – as opposed to a dumb decision by the AI (or a second dumb decision at any rate).

Anyway, I decided to test my theory. I set up a shooting range map with 12 M2 s v 7 Pz IV s, rears to the guns at short range.

Note: there were no AT weapons on the map – no bazookas; no rifle grenades; just the .50 cals.

The details of this game are amazing at times (all the time really, but sometimes more so than others). Check out the 23 second mark of the video. There's a hit on the rear upper hull, a penetration is noted, "engine shutdown 0.wav" plays, then 2 seconds later the panzer explodes.

[gunnergoz]

General Patton actually tried to get US army ordnance to try out the aircraft version of the .50, which had a ROF of about 850, significantly higher than the ground version's 500-600 RPM.. His plan was for Shermans to have the new .50's as a coax. Armed with some rounds of air corps API ammo, the Sherman could have lit up a lot of light armor. The idea never got anywhere and it seems they were just humoring Old Georgie, but it does lead to some intriguing what-ifs.

[dieseltaylor]

I have had a STUG III penetrated by both the German and US medium MG and ranges around 100 metres. This is a bit of a surprise!

In CMAK the 20mm was very very unlikely to hurt a Stuart even in the side but in CMBN it can knock them out - which is goood. Knocking out MkIV's from the rear with a 0.5" I did several times in CMAK so it is nice to see it carries through.

[Sergei]

The main gun certainly finished the job, but I'm sure it was the .50 cal that caused the tank to stop abruptly – as opposed to a dumb decision by the AI (or a second dumb decision at any rate).

You can hear when the tank becomes immobilized, at the same time when the first tank shell hits it. The .50 cal has nothing to do with that.

[Rex J.]

You can hear when the tank becomes immobilized, at the same time when the first tank shell hits it. The .50 cal has nothing to do with that.

You're right. Looking at it again (and using headphones) and comparing it to the test map, what happened was that the driver must have been killed by the .50 burst which caused the tank to stop (not immobilized per se but stopped), then the 75mm shell knocked out the engine.

BTW, the "23 second mark" I'm referring to is in the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpbSkVNkR3U, not the original video.

[Taki]

Any acounts on how often Tanks where taken out with HMG Fire in Real Life in Normandy?

Right now they are more effektive against Light Armoured Vehicles and even tanks like the PzIV because it was not that heavy armoured on Sides and Rear.

Why use that slow ROF Bazookas and other AT Assets when you can Take out almost any AFV of the Germans with 0.50cal?

[SD Smack]

I just tested this with an M3 halftrack and a PZVI and the .50cal knocked it out....this is kind of a suprise though I'm not sure how armored the rear of the tank is and perhaps the .50cal can penetrate the armor. If that is the case I can see a .50cal round destroying the engine block.

Steve-o

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Because the bazooka is good from any aspect and is a helluva lot easier to run with than a .50.

[DavidFields]

That's pretty much how it was. They were battlefield taxis, not AFVs. The armor was there to stop shell fragments, not projectiles, and with a near miss even a fragmentation weapon could do them in.

Michael

I agree. I don't remember using HT in CM1 in an assault role--indeed, I specifically remember that being a terrible idea. I realize there were some, rare, instances where the right tactic was to charge with HTs, and unload in front of the enemy--or, at least, it was a spectacular tactic. But those were rare--and I seldom used them because if one misjudged the enemy force one essentially lost everything.

To me, HT in CM1 were held back, to mop up at a distance, as sort of a mobile MG, late in the scenario.

And I mostly played early WW2 scenarios in CM1--by 1944, infantry AT stuff is incredibly common.

First and most important tactical rule for me: infantry in front of the armor, armour stays 100-300 meters from the closest un-scouted tree line (depending on the year). Anything else is reckless or desperate. And that is with tanks, no less.

Stay with us, Taki. You will have better battles.

[slysniper]

When playing this game, one must not use the concepts they have learned from all other war games. This game trys to match real world results which is very hard for many to understand, since they have been given tons of misconcepts of what the war was like. Thus for many young or new players wanting to enjoy this game, you need to start studying and finding good information about the subject. Note how many players are WWII war grogs, for a very simple reasom. This game system is trying to get it right, not how Hollywood would have us think it happened. And for those that enjoy trying to understand that war and what really was happening there, this game is a good tool to protray that. Let alone a great game for playing against others and being able to use tactics as a way to win.

[gunnergoz]

Any acounts on how often Tanks where taken out with HMG Fire in Real Life in Normandy?

Right now they are more effektive against Light Armoured Vehicles and even tanks like the PzIV because it was not that heavy armoured on Sides and Rear.

Why use that slow ROF Bazookas and other AT Assets when you can Take out almost any AFV of the Germans with 0.50cal?

You care to tiptoe around a bunch of German tanks carrying a 150 pounds worth of M-2 .50 cal and tripod, not to mention ammo for it? Good luck, my friend.

[Taki]

I agree. I don't remember using HT in CM1 in an assault role--indeed, I specifically remember that being a terrible idea. I realize there were some, rare, instances where the right tactic was to charge with HTs, and unload in front of the enemy--or, at least, it was a spectacular tactic. But those were rare--and I seldom used them because if one misjudged the enemy force one essentially lost everything.

Stay with us, Taki. You will have better battles.

Exactly that tactic worked out very well in CMx1 if i recall it right. Driving forward claiming good Positions for the Infantry first and own more Territory of the Map worked very well in Cmx1. Infantry was tough to took away from their Positions even with Mortarfire or Artillery Barrage. Even Tanks had a hard time breaking their Moral and make them leave their Positions.

So for the Risk of Loosing one of the HTs, wich didnt go down on HMG Fire and wherent that easiely taken out or abandoned, it was a Suceeding tactic in Cmx1.

After playing a few PBEM Game now its astonishing how many Players use exactly the same tactics (in Meeting Engagment, wich where the mostly fought in Cmx1) and race to the best Positions on the Map.

Maybe we need another Approach on that because good Positions arent that much of worth anymore. Reason why to me is:

1. 1-2 Good placed Tankrounds even on Foxholes or Houses causes lots of Casualtys in 1-2 Rounds. Compared to Cmx1 where it took wqay more time to break some defenders inside a House, Foxhole or similar.

2. Deadly Mortars. They kill more Infantry with a well placed hit and are deadly to Infblobs wich stick together.

3. Overall Casualtiy Rate is higher when you got lots of Guns pointed at you.

So where it was the Key in Cmx1 to take Houses, Foxholes and woods first to have a good Fighting Position and really slow down enemy Advances they are now two Faces of the Medal.

The only thing that "feels" diffrent right now is the Bocage. In terms of Benefit for the Defender it feels more like Cmx1 if you didnt get flanked it soaks up alot of enemy Fire.

[Bastables]

Exactly that tactic worked out very well in CMx1 if i recall it right. Driving forward claiming good Positions for the Infantry first and own more Territory of the Map worked very well in Cmx1. Infantry was tough to took away from their Positions even with Mortarfire or Artillery Barrage. Even Tanks had a hard time breaking their Moral and make them leave their Positions.

So for the Risk of Loosing one of the HTs, wich didnt go down on HMG Fire and wherent that easiely taken out or abandoned, it was a Suceeding tactic in Cmx1.

After playing a few PBEM Game now its astonishing how many Players use exactly the same tactics (in Meeting Engagment, wich where the mostly fought in Cmx1) and race to the best Positions on the Map.

Maybe we need another Approach on that because good Positions arent that much of worth anymore. Reason why to me is:

1. 1-2 Good placed Tankrounds even on Foxholes or Houses causes lots of Casualtys in 1-2 Rounds. Compared to Cmx1 where it took wqay more time to break some defenders inside a House, Foxhole or similar.

2. Deadly Mortars. They kill more Infantry with a well placed hit and are deadly to Infblobs wich stick together.

3. Overall Casualtiy Rate is higher when you got lots of Guns pointed at you.

So where it was the Key in Cmx1 to take Houses, Foxholes and woods first to have a good Fighting Position and really slow down enemy Advances they are now two Faces of the Medal.

The only thing that "feels" diffrent right now is the Bocage. In terms of Benefit for the Defender it feels more like Cmx1 if you didnt get flanked it soaks up alot of enemy Fire.

I don't think you remember CMx1 correctly German light armor was being killed from 500m by 50cals because crews would bail upon any penetration. Charles then modded it so crews would not bail and German HT and armored cars would only be murdered at sub 200m ranges.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=13655&highlight=50cal

Cheers to Charles!

I have tested the same custom scenarios that had previously demonstrated the uncanny accuracy of the M2 under the 1.04 patch.

Results show that German HT are now a reasonable personnel transport vehicle at ranges >200m. If you run them any closer the 50s will rightly chew you up. Pumas and associated ACs have proportional resistance.

Once again: Thanks Charles!