US UBEr Halftrack

[ChrisND]

There's almost always a reason the game does something like this. The BFC guys haven't missed much. I shoulda been charged $100 + for this game, no kidding.

Just move to the UK and order it shipped again.

[LemuelG]

The 234/1 missed (edit: failed to spot) a half dozen vehicles zooming over the field to his right, one sprayed him with .50 to good effect; then the 234 spots the HT going past him at a more convenient angle and fires a full magazine of 20mm, but didn't really get a decent lead on him and every round missed the 'fast'-moving vehicle, the other US HTs are still going to town with their MGs.

The 234 crew never seems to reload the 20mm, they tracked the other vehicles and fired the co-axial MG, got another 4-5 kills and then received an almighty dose of .50 which polished them off killing two of them and disabling the car.

About 30 seconds elapsed between main gun firing and vehicle death with no sign of a reload. Keep in mind the car was parked about 30m away from an enemy occupied building at the time and taking heavy fire to it's side.

Overall an excellent lesson in how Not to use mech inf. and recon vehicles from both sides.

[Taki]

How much of Penetration do these MG34, Broning 0.50cal and other Guns have?

And how are the Shots calculated? Is every Bullet calculated like with the AP Shots of Tanks? Angle of the Armoured Plate etc?

Overall the 2xMG Us Halftracks are very effective in Game terms. In PBEM File #2 you can see clearly how long it took (it never did) a German Halftrack to point its Front MG34 on that spotted Halftrack (Target Arc was setup clearly there). Its like Stugs again Shermans. :-)

Right now it seems to me "More Guns" is better then "Better Guns". Like you see the 2cm KwK misses and the good ol Fifty hits right on the Spot and has higher overall ROF and more Guns pointed at the Target then this single 2cm KwK

I quit that PBEM right now and wait for further Patches. As the Game is right now you cant secure some Area with your German Halftracks or PSWs wich was the Plan riding them on the Field near that Houses to cover the Approach of the German Infantry.

They got peppered and sprayed by some Light Rifle, smg and 0.50cal Fire and panic right way doing really weird things.

Was "Light" fire really that effective? If so i have to completly rethink of my Tactics. You cant use the German Halftracks then for Fast Firesupport for your Troops. They can transport your troops then but hav eto stay waaay back and help you as backup in Defense.

In Cmx1 i could use the Halftracks to bring Troops in one Place let them hop of the Vehicle and the Vec. supports them with Machinegun Fire and supresses the enemy while the Infantry get in Place.

What where the Reallife Tactics of those Mechanized Infantry units?

[Michael Emrys]

You cant use the German Halftracks then for Fast Firesupport for your Troops. They can transport your troops then but hav eto stay waaay back and help you as backup in Defense.

That's pretty much how it was. They were battlefield taxis, not AFVs. The armor was there to stop shell fragments, not projectiles, and with a near miss even a fragmentation weapon could do them in.

Michael

[George MC]

So ya use dubious tactics (charging HTs up into .50cal fire - you read how effective .50cal was/is?) then spit the dummy and blame the game?

MG34 and MG42 did have AP ammo maybe not as effective as the .50 cal but still enough to take out the very lightly armoured US HTs. HTs pretty much are really only battlefield taxis - follow the tanks cross country,get the dismounts to where you want em then dismount em where they fight as infantry. HTs are useful for follow on support in mopping up but I'd be keeping em waaay back until such time as I know the enemy's AT capability is pretty screwed. But charging em forward like Tiger tanks is not the most effective way to use. Fun for your opponent for sure...

[Bastables]

12,7mm is not exactly light fire. . .

It's the old WW1 and early war antitank cartridge.

At less than 100m with zero deflection a 7,92mm round will punch through the 8mm of armour the US half tracks have.

The Germans had to hang 5mm spaced armour to protect 30mm of tank side armour against 14.5mm anti tank Soviet rounds. And yet you think less armour should be effective at protecting against 12.7mm fire? This is not different to CMx1 or "real life" 50cal are effective against the thinner armour.

at about 500m you're looking at 19mm pentrated by the 50cal 0 angle. Side armour of 234 is 8mm. . .

You and your opponent combined managed to put the German recce units in a losing position, you don't know the penetration of 50cals and 7,92mm but then cry at finding out how effective they are within the game. . . and inspite of not knowing the technical details argue that the modelling is broken because you got hurt enough in a pbem to throw in the towel.

[ChrisND]

Was "Light" fire really that effective? If so i have to completly rethink of my Tactics. You cant use the German Halftracks then for Fast Firesupport for your Troops. They can transport your troops then but hav eto stay waaay back and help you as backup in Defense.

You've just described exactly how they should be used.

[stikkypixie]

How much of Penetration do these MG34, Broning 0.50cal and other Guns have?

And how are the Shots calculated? Is every Bullet calculated like with the AP Shots of Tanks? Angle of the Armoured Plate etc?

Yes . You can clearly see it when shooting rifle rounds at tanks. Wikipedia list the the energy of the .50 at around 19000J, the 7.62mm of the MG34 only around 4000J. There is some difference there. It is no surprise your scout car got killed, especially if the rounds were hitting the SIDE of the car.

Right now it seems to me "More Guns" is better then "Better Guns". Like you see the 2cm KwK misses and the good ol Fifty hits right on the Spot and has higher overall ROF and more Guns pointed at the Target then this single 2cm KwK

If the big gun is not hitting anything than it's not use . Remember that when the .50 were shooting at you, they were NOT moving and your car was NOT moving either and your guys were very, very scared.

Was "Light" fire really that effective? If so i have to completly rethink of my Tactics. You cant use the German Halftracks then for Fast Firesupport for your Troops. They can transport your troops then but hav eto stay waaay back and help you as backup in Defense.

In Cmx1 i could use the Halftracks to bring Troops in one Place let them hop of the Vehicle and the Vec. supports them with Machinegun Fire and supresses the enemy while the Infantry get in Place.

What where the Reallife Tactics of those Mechanized Infantry units?

I dismount everyone and attack on foot. I use the halftracks are a base of fire.

[Michael Emrys]

One thing you have to remember is that armored cars and halftracks are fragile members of the armor family. It wasn't reasonable or even possible to hang half a foot of armor on every vehicle in the inventory. ACs and HTs were given just enough armor to perform their assigned tasks and over all it worked out fairly well. But you can't use them like tanks and expect them to last very long. And by this stage of the war, even tanks had long ceased to be invulnerable to infantry AT weaponry.

Michael

[LemuelG]

I quit that PBEM right now and wait for further Patches. As the Game is right now you cant secure some Area with your German Halftracks or PSWs wich was the Plan riding them on the Field near that Houses to cover the Approach of the German Infantry.

Rushing your car >100m away from the support of his closest friends (straight up to a house which turned out to contain enemies) he got engaged by the better part of an armoured infantry company and suffered righteous consequence. The only surprise to me when I watched that replay was the amount of rounds the car's hull actually managed to turn.

Patches to the game will not fix your errors in judgement.

[Brille]

Since you´re mentioning CMx1, Taki: Was it any different in that ?

Back than I´ve had several encounters with my german PSWs against 50.cal equiped HTs/tanks/vehicles in CMAK and they were indeed dangerous for them up to 500m or even beyond. (depends on the armour they´re firing on)

I would say that it was even "worse" in the older games, since "flexible" MG got almost no timedelay (from spotting to actually engaging) and could fire from positions they couldn´t in reallife. For example the various Tank AA MG especially that of the M10 which would be very limited on the back-turretsector of the vehicle but in CMAK it could fire 360° without a problem.

Not to forget the collective knowledge of the TAC-AI which could bundle the 12.7mm fire (and any other) right at the beginning of a firefight just in the moment one unit spots the targeted enemy.

[Sergei]

I quit that PBEM right now and wait for further Patches. As the Game is right now you cant secure some Area with your German Halftracks or PSWs

Wow, you really are some sportsman! But I've got a warning for you: the game will NEVER work for you with those tactics, so you might as well uninstall now and throw the game away.

[womble]

How much of Penetration do these MG34, Broning 0.50cal and other Guns have?

MG34 and browning .30 were pretty equivalent, and could sometimes get a penetration on light armour. The .50cal is a large step up, having been designed for anti-armour work, and will shred light armour.

And how are the Shots calculated? Is every Bullet calculated like with the AP Shots of Tanks? Angle of the Armoured Plate etc?

AIUI, exactly like every shot, the individual bullet is tracked and its interaction with armour depends on location and angle of incidence.

Overall the 2xMG Us Halftracks are very effective in Game terms.

Not, IME, as effective as the .50 cal ones. I've found it difficult to employ both MGs at the same time.

Right now it seems to me "More Guns" is better then "Better Guns". Like you see the 2cm KwK misses and the good ol Fifty hits right on the Spot and has higher overall ROF and more Guns pointed at the Target then this single 2cm KwK

At the engagement ranges mentioned, it may well be that a Ma Deuce is better than the 20mm. Especially if the crew are too panicked to remember to reload; the belts of a fiftycal hold a lot more rounds than the clips loaded into the autocannon.

I quit that PBEM right now and wait for further Patches. As the Game is right now you cant secure some Area with your German Halftracks or PSWs...

Against what? They're only any good as backup for a decent dismounted infantry presence, and no WW2 half track that I can think of was meant to deliver troops to their objective in the face of defensive fire, especially light AP fire from the likes of fifty-cals.

...wich was the Plan...

Then your plan was hopelessly optimistic and grounded in fantasy rather than the historic purpose, design and performance of the vehicles which CM presents.

They got peppered and sprayed by some Light Rifle, smg and 0.50cal Fire and panic right way doing really weird things.

You can, potentially, crash your maneuver elements forward in tracks if you've achieved sufficient suppression with your support elements. Which you evidently failed to manage in your 'plan'.

Was "Light" fire really that effective?

As has been said a number of times in this thread, yes it was.

If so i have to completly rethink of my Tactics.

Sounds like you do, yes.

You cant use the German Halftracks then for Fast Firesupport for your Troops.

Not the way you do it. But then, you can't use any halftrack the way you seem to want to, German, or American.

They can transport your troops then but hav eto stay waaay back and help you as backup in Defense.

That's one way of using them. Another way is to have them close to the action, but behind cover, and bring them out once you're starting to get fire superiority, to tighten the screw and provide a static firebase while your infantry assault the enemy. If you use them in conjunction with your infantry, they won't be the only target to be shot at. A platoon's three tracks aren't going to be enough to suppress the enemy on their own anyway, unless you're attacking a weaker defense.

In Cmx1 i could use the Halftracks to bring Troops in one Place let them hop of the Vehicle and the Vec. supports them with Machinegun Fire and supresses the enemy while the Infantry get in Place.

In case you hadn't noticed, a few things have changed between that game and this one.

[Agua]

You cant use the German Halftracks then for Fast Firesupport for your Troops. They can transport your troops then but hav eto stay waaay back and help you as backup in Defense.

Pretty much. Drop the inf off and let them hoof it, keeping the HT back a good distance for fire support.

[Frankster65]

@Taki

Your tactics need revamping...not the game.

[Charlie Marlow]

I must admit that I am going to have to break some bad habits with HTs and ACs. Contrary to what I knew from various historical sources, light armor seemed to be remarkably resistant to MG fire in CMx1. I used them for fire support all the time, often at quite short ranges. I've painfully learned the error of my ahistorical ways in CMBN.

[Bastables]

That's odd, I had an incidence in carbid or huzzar where a 234 armoured car bounced a frontal 37mm ap round from greyhound at less than 100m. Also in closing the Gap my 234 survived frontal 50cal fire which it never did in CMx1.

I concluded the new more discrete penetration modeling made light armour more effective as it's now less binary.

In this one (PBEM file) the 234 did not switch to instant KO due to one 50cal burst like it would have in CMx1.

[Charlie Marlow]

234 is rather heavily armored for an armored car. Especially the Puma. 30 mm front armor. See, we really could use those data pop-ups from CM1.

[thejetset]

Taki, I wouldn't put a halftrack closer than about 400m to the nearest enemy squad. And even then, I would hope that my halftrack wasn't the ONLY target they were interested in.

You put a halftrack less than 100m to several enemy units. There were no less than 15 small-arms weapons plugging away at it at that range.

Taki, for your own personal safety ... if you ever get into a battle and happen to have a half-track at your disposal, DO NOT rush up to the enemy to engage them at close range in it .... because the result will be that Taki will be no more!!

[Shmavis]

So ya use dubious tactics (charging HTs up into .50cal fire - you read how effective .50cal was/is?) then spit the dummy and blame the game?

MG34 and MG42 did have AP ammo maybe not as effective as the .50 cal but still enough to take out the very lightly armoured US HTs. HTs pretty much are really only battlefield taxis - follow the tanks cross country,get the dismounts to where you want em then dismount em where they fight as infantry. HTs are useful for follow on support in mopping up but I'd be keeping em waaay back until such time as I know the enemy's AT capability is pretty screwed. But charging em forward like Tiger tanks is not the most effective way to use. Fun for your opponent for sure...

Hulloooo, George. It's been a while. Seems like you've moved up in the CM world.

[gunnergoz]

Re: 37mm vs 234 Spahwagen: I'm seeing penetrations by the 37mm on the Spahwagen but these 8 rad AFV's are big and it takes a lot of solid shot penetrations to hit a vulnerable point. The ammo is small and not easy to hit, the engine is in the rear and can only be hit from the side or rear and the only thing left for the peashooter 37mm to do is to knock out the enemy gun/mount or kill enough of the crew to panic them. Indeed, 2 of 6 234's I got credit for in Huzzar! were functioning vehicles abandoned by panicky crews after multiple penetrations.

[mjkerner]

There's almost always a reason the game does something like this. The BFC guys haven't missed much. I shoulda been charged $100 + for this game, no kidding.

I'm not kidding, I would have gladly paid $500 for this game, probably more. (I've spent thousands over the years on boardgames and miniatures, and I never got the stisfaction out of them that I was hoping for.) CMBN and it's modules/new games will fill up my freetime for the rest of my life, no joke.

Now, back to your scheduled progamming.

[Invader_Canuck]

I'm not kidding, I would have gladly paid $500 for this game, probably more. (I've spent thousands over the years on boardgames and miniatures, and I never got the stisfaction out of them that I was hoping for.) CMBN and it's modules/new games will fill up my freetime for the rest of my life, no joke.

Now, back to your scheduled progamming.

Quiet! Don't give them any ideas ;p

[Mattias]

I'm not kidding, I would have gladly paid $500 for this game, probably more. (I've spent thousands over the years on boardgames and miniatures, and I never got the stisfaction out of them that I was hoping for.) CMBN and it's modules/new games will fill up my freetime for the rest of my life, no joke.

Amen to that! By now CM1 has cost me about 0,025 $ an hour of good clean fun

M.

[Bastables]

Re: 37mm vs 234 Spahwagen: I'm seeing penetrations by the 37mm on the Spahwagen but these 8 rad AFV's are big and it takes a lot of solid shot penetrations to hit a vulnerable point. The ammo is small and not easy to hit, the engine is in the rear and can only be hit from the side or rear and the only thing left for the peashooter 37mm to do is to knock out the enemy gun/mount or kill enough of the crew to panic them. Indeed, 2 of 6 234's I got credit for in Huzzar! were functioning vehicles abandoned by panicky crews after multiple penetrations.

Yes you're quite correct, I was just musing that Marlow has figured they are less survivable than CMx1 and my experiences have been the opposite where because after armour effects are more discrete/modeled. In CMx1 a 50cal hit would do I presume a random "die" roll to check if the engine exploded or people died leading to light armour veh being KO'd more often than Cmx2 which will model things like 15 nice holes in armour scared crew but the veh remains functional.

Sort of the range of possibilities can lead different conclusions.