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GreenAsJade

Inf poor use of foxholes!?

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I'm probably giving bad orders here ... but I was pretty disapointed.

I put some inf in some foxholes: a shrek team and an HQ.

They have plenty of room.

They were sitting there watching action with covered arc - the HQ directing arty.

A tank appears over a nearby bocage. The can definitely see it, because it stays on the screen when I select them. It drives along till it spots them, then turns around and mows them down with its MG.

Wah!

My guys just sat there like gophers with their heads up out of the holes, watching the tank all gawpeyed. A couple of guys get killed by the first burst, the other guys duck then pop up again!

What's the point of being in a foxhole if you are going to sit up so you can get mown down?

Is there some order to give to say "take cover in this foxhole"?

Ta,

GaJ

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So ... "hide" might be the right thing ... but...

- Can the HQ correctly direct arty while under "Hide"? In CMx1 he could not.

- Will spotting be adversely affected while hiding? In CMx1 hiding units could see almost nothing.

I want them to hide ... when there's a threat. It's no good for them to be waiting for me to tell them to hide, next turn. They're already dead by then.

If "hide" is the right thing to mean "sit cunningly in the foxhole looking out and keeping aware

of what's going on" then that's great news...

GaJ

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Hiding adversely effects spotting; having a bazooka team on a reverse slope my team did not see a Panzer IV driving down the parallel side of a bocage. Same battle restarted from save Unhidden bazooka team sees the PIV rolling by and shoots it up with rockets. Both times the split unit had cover arcs.

You can see this on reflection on the action state of the troops in the bottom left, hiding toggles between hiding and spotting, unhidden infantry stay in spotting till they're aiming reloading cowering ect.

HQ's and foos can spot for arty when hiding as they look up and spot every now and again

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Yes - hiding does seem a bit overdone, it was the same in CMSF. If you have a schrek team hiding with a covered arc, you'd surely expect them to hear and spot a tank whilst hiding, no? I always thought that was one of the key features of the covered arc. The ability to spring a trap.

Also when you "unhide" an unit - you won't be able to check the LOS as unhidden compared to hidden - I find this quite frustrating. You have to wait a whole minute! This might have to do with RT coding of the original game design.

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Line of sight is unfortunately not the same as line of fire. Your Schreck gunner may not have had LOF even though his partner had LOS.

I too have been frustrated by this sort of thing: in one scenario I had a US anti-tank gun all ready and covering a street from behind a nearby home, covered arc and all. I confirmed LOS for the crew but did not think to check LOF for the gun. When a Panther drove by well within the arc of fire, the ATG did not fire and the tank passed out of its LOF and LOS.

I credit the game for doing a great job of simulating difficult situations that sometimes frustrate me intensely.

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The age old dilemma of the Foxhole.

Hide and live or poke you head up to do you job and get it shot off.

I think that it isn't quite this dilemma. That's the "real life" dilemma.

This one though is a "game orders" dilemma.

In real life, guys hit the deck when a tank happens upon their foxhole, but they can sit up watching out for it up till that point.

In the game, how do we set up this behaviour?

GaJ

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I find that in such cases part of the problem is that I subconsciously think that, because I can see something, the unit should be able to also. Even when I check LOS/LOF and find them negative, I still keep expecting them to react based on what I am seeing on the screen. This can work at a larger level as well: enemy armor appears on the other side of the screen and I expect my AT guns to swivel in response, even though there is no possible way they could be aware of their presence.

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As per my original post, the units in question definitely _could_ see the attacker. I was clicked on the units in question, and the tank came into _their_ sight, drove for a moment, rotated it's turret and mowed them down while they happily watched. They didn't duck until they were under fire.

If the fire came from out of the blue for them, I wouldn't be worried about it, it would have been "a suprise attack". But these guys were sitting there actively looking at this threat bearing down on them, all the time leaving themselves completely exposed above the line of their foxhole.

That seems to be broken behaviour. It leaves the WEGO player having to have troops in foxholes hiding the whole time (therefore blind) in order not to get mown down when some enemy appears early in the minute.

(Note: I know that if they took cover when they saw the threat, someone would likely be complaining that units don't fire out of foxholes. I didn't say that a fix was easy, I just said that the current behaviour seems broken :) ).

GaJ

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I think that it isn't quite this dilemma. That's the "real life" dilemma.

This one though is a "game orders" dilemma.

In real life, guys hit the deck when a tank happens upon their foxhole, but they can sit up watching out for it up till that point.

In the game, how do we set up this behaviour?

GaJ

Unhidden and cover arc if you want range or to create a kill zone. The key problem is that foxholes do not provide any concealment. To me it seems that tanks can sight chaps kneeling in foxholes as easily as if they're kneeling out in the open. So to remain hidden while spotting and watching their arc they need to be next to bocage with the bocage intervening the target. In treelines even in wheat fields.

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I don't actually agree that this is the key problem. The tank may open fire on the foxholes (area fire) even if it doesn't spot anyone.

The key problem is that guys in foxholes appear to leave themselves completely exposed when under threat.

GaJ

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Well yes that's sort of my point, if the troops are behind a tree or in the open they will be prone. In a Foxhole they will kneel unless cowering and therefore be much more exposed. They seem to have poorer cover and concealment than just lying down in a field.

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