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Tree Force-fields

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Something I knew about in CMSF has just become much more important in CMBN.

The ability of the tree to withstand any kind of projectile and not be damaged in the slightest.

In CMSF there were so few trees I considered this pretty unimportant but CMBN has a lot of trees. If one was being gamey a good tactic would be to park directly in front of a tree with the tree exactly in the middle.

This may be the very reason we see vehicles in archive photos running around covered in tree pieces as they discovered the fantastic anti-armour properties of the Yew! This of course led to a fully fledged 'wood' race where one side vied with the other for the latest technological deciduous armour. I think in one photo I noticed a GI assaulting a Stug with a decidedly dangerous 'Pine Cone'.

Seriously though, is this something that can be addressed or is it hard coded into the game?

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This isn't a huge deal for me, but it would be nice if trees would be destroyed after taking a certain (or somewhat variable) amount of damage. I don't think anyone here would be looking for an elaborate visual, just cut the tree in half (with a sound effect and puff of dust or something) and make it no longer block fire. Really this issue is more annoying than anything, but every now and then things will line up just right and a tank will fire half a dozen rounds into a single tree with no effect.

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This isn't a huge deal for me, but it would be nice if trees would be destroyed after taking a certain (or somewhat variable) amount of damage.

Are you sure? Some of those trees are pretty beefy. Not like those wispy palms in CMSF.

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I find it quite bizzarre that the fuzes on DF HE are sensitive enough to be set off by whizzing through some leaves. And that repeated shots through the same tree seem to be stopped by that same tree over and over again. I had a Shreck and a Sherman duelling 'through' a tree (and over 3 hedges, the middle one of which had the tree growing out of it), and a minute's worth of fire from each side (2 or 3 HEAT and about 5 75mm HE all exploded in the same tree...

I know they set Arty fuses to go off at a sneeze to achieve treebursts, but I'd've thought having the shell reach a target through some light concealment would be more important for DF HE applications.

Oh yeah, and if you chuck enough HE at a tree, it'll end up skeletal with no leaves. Haven't noticed any trees just turning to shattered truncated trunks though, yet.

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This is getting interesting.

I had this once in CMSF, a enemy tank behind some trees and my own tank hit those trees 5 or 6 times...

Now with CMBN and all those big trees this could be a issue.

I mean, we can destroy building, fences, walls and the terrain can be damaged...and then we have trees that resist 10 HE shells from a Panther...

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Something I knew about in CMSF has just become much more important in CMBN.

The ability of the tree to withstand any kind of projectile and not be damaged in the slightest.

In CMSF there were so few trees I considered this pretty unimportant but CMBN has a lot of trees. If one was being gamey a good tactic would be to park directly in front of a tree with the tree exactly in the middle.

This may be the very reason we see vehicles in archive photos running around covered in tree pieces as they discovered the fantastic anti-armour properties of the Yew! This of course led to a fully fledged 'wood' race where one side vied with the other for the latest technological deciduous armour. I think in one photo I noticed a GI assaulting a Stug with a decidedly dangerous 'Pine Cone'.

Seriously though, is this something that can be addressed or is it hard coded into the game?

Tree grog.

It sounds like something that should be looked at. Tress can take damage but at some point the tree should no longer be a LOF obstical.

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Tree degradation should be modeled in, given how many of the things there are in Normandy. Depending on the size of the trees / bushes etc, small arms and MG fire could take it apart.

Set a .50 cal firing onto enemy troops hidden in trees and those babies are coming down.

Of course, they do provide cover depending on where they fall...

Well, I'm sure an entire development effort (maybe an expansion module? ;-) could be put into total realism here... But sufficed to say, in basic terms trees that come under fire should fall over eventually.

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Are you sure? Some of those trees are pretty beefy. Not like those wispy palms in CMSF.

They may be beefy, but that does not make them invulnerable. Especially when we are talking about rounds intended to knock out tanks and fortified positions.

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If trees are made of ironwood in the game, that should be looked into. Also, if the HE is detonating in the foliage, it should be an even more efficient mankiller since all that shrapnel is now effectively doubled with tree splinters and is, in effect, an air burst.

It would be really cool if stands of trees collapsed under fire much as a building does, leaving nothing but stumps and withered branches in a thicket that would be hard to enter and tough to fight in. Any chance of that being added to the game?

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Tree grog.

It sounds like something that should be looked at. Tress can take damage but at some point the tree should no longer be a LOF obstical.

Agreed. Not that it should be at the top of priorities but it definitely has been present in most of my games so far as a serious annoyance. Trying to kill/supress that enemy position over there? Nopes, the ubertree is in the way, therefore need to reposition armour.

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...if the HE is detonating in the foliage, it should be an even more efficient mankiller since all that shrapnel is now effectively doubled with tree splinters and is, in effect, an air burst.

Well, there are two points against this view, one serious, the other not-so-much...

First, it's as likely that the 'early detonation' due to foliage will occur somewhere between the firer and its target and any fragmentation effects, tree or casing sourced will either be significantly attenuated by the time they reach the target, or will be more hazzardous to the firing unit and/or its friends than the target.

Second, if trees aren't being degraded by the HE fire, they're not contributing splinter material to the fragmentation effects :)

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Well, there are two points against this view, one serious, the other not-so-much...

First, it's as likely that the 'early detonation' due to foliage will occur somewhere between the firer and its target and any fragmentation effects, tree or casing sourced will either be significantly attenuated by the time they reach the target, or will be more hazzardous to the firing unit and/or its friends than the target.

Second, if trees aren't being degraded by the HE fire, they're not contributing splinter material to the fragmentation effects :)

I have the impression we are partly talking apples and oranges...perhaps you are speaking of instances where direct fire has to go through a stand of trees to reach the target. I'm speaking more of artillery/mortar indirect fire and how it is influenced by trees near the target.

You must be thinking of trees near the firing unit for the first to be true. I never deploy mortars in particular near any tall objects like buildings or trees, for that reason and I'm careful about direct fire into trees, keeping a healthy distance between the firing unit and the trees.

However, in my previous post I'm speaking of trees near the target causing air detonation of the round's fuze just before it impacts the ground at the end of its trajectory. This is mostly an indirect fire phenomenon related to artillery and mortar rounds.

And as to the second, trees should be being degraded by fire, whether we see the effects or not and there should be a casualty multiplier for the tree splinters. That should be true for both direct and indirect fire.

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I love how these "controversies" spring up and take on a life of their own. :)

Just to be crystal clear right up front:

HE DESTROYS TREES IN CMBN

GSX may have been thinking of how it used to be in CMSF. However CMSF had been changed along the way and in 1.31, artillery will destroy trees.

Just to be sure no last second bug had crept in, I ran a test with US 105/155mm Howitzers targeting a small forest. After 15 turns, not one tree was left standing and the area looked like a WW1 battlefield.

In fact, once players see just how effective HE is against trees, I am sure we will see a thread that HE is too effective against trees. :)

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Hi Jaws, i remember playing the very first mission in February in Amersfoort. A mission you created ended in flatening whole parts of the forrest as the germans were hiding in it.

Must still be possible?

Best

Too late, tnx sgt Joch

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Just to continue on this point, when you lob HE into a forest, you may get situations where all the foliage drops off, but the tree trunk is still standing. However, if you keep lobbing shells at it, eventually the tree trunk will also be destroyed.

What players may be noticing is the result of too few or too light shells. I have run tests and with prolonged heavy barrages, you can waste forests, as in WW1 (it looks neat too, Beta testing is not just work :))

Now whether specific HE ammo strength should be adjusted up or down is a different story. If anyone has a specific issue with that raise it and we can look at it.

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OK so HE takes down trees, is the effectiveness of HE increased by this due to the air burst effect?

Not so much the splintering which does help a bit but wood is still wood and wouldn't be lethal at any great range, but more from the fact that the arty round is exploding in the air and more shrapnel is directed downwards in a cone than when it detonates on the ground.

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I have the impression we are partly talking apples and oranges...perhaps you are speaking of instances where direct fire has to go through a stand of trees to reach the target. I'm speaking more of artillery/mortar indirect fire and how it is influenced by trees near the target.

Yes, yes we are. I'm addressing only the apparent anomaly of direct fired HE constantly and repetetively exploding against something that should go away pretty rapidly under that sort of stress.

And as to the second, trees should be being degraded by fire, whether we see the effects or not and there should be a casualty multiplier for the tree splinters. That should be true for both direct and indirect fire.

If there's anything in the 'apparent' blast radius, perhaps. But it does seem churlish to demand a constant and undiminishing supply of splinters from the same tree.

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I love how these "controversies" spring up and take on a life of their own. :)

Just to be crystal clear right up front:

HE DESTROYS TREES IN CMBN

Yes, we know that. There are enough examples of it in VAARs that it was evident before the demo came out.

What I have a problem with is the apparent durability of a tree. 6-8 blasts in a minute, mixed Panzershreck HEAT and 75mm HE hitting the same tree should, I believe, make a hole large enough for successive rounds to pass through. That's if they're precisely hitting the tree, and if it's the 'tree leaf cloud object' that's setting them off in flight, I think that's screwed up.

Did they really set DF HE fuses to go off at light cover? Or was it more hoped that there'd be some penetration before detonation?

]Just to be sure no last second bug had crept in, I ran a test with US 105/155mm Howitzers targeting a small forest. After 15 turns, not one tree was left standing and the area looked like a WW1 battlefield.

Someone else started in about Indirect HE, which seems fine, including the 'don't fire mortars in trees' (unless someone can provide evidence that mortar fuses would only detonate when they were pointed 'down' :) ). How about addressing the wierd DF 'splosions?

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Wombie,

Since there seemed to be some confusion in this thread, I just wanted it to be clear to everyone that there is little of the CMx2 battlefield that can't be destroyed through the proper application of high explosive.

On the second point, regarding how many HEAT or 75mm rounds it takes to take down a tree, I don't have the answer.Someone would have to run some tests and check it against historical/firing range evidence to see what if anything should be tweaked.

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