LongLeftFlank Posted May 30, 2011 Author Share Posted May 30, 2011 Me too, actually. Even with no trees, bocage or defenses in there yet, just by surfing the bare contour map I'm already getting a sense of what a daunting attack this was for the Santa Fe Division, and how the Germans could hold this position so strongly with just 2 depleted fortress battalions. A 70 meter altitude change doesn't seem like much over 3km, but it's enough to give good overwatch. And the Vire river and fortified hamlets anchored the German left flank very strongly. So the Yanks had little choice but to slog directly across country into that famous Le Carillon map with all the little arrows (MG nests) on it. Which I will be recreating down to the last detail.... P.S. And on our good neighbour and ally's Memorial Day, it is fitting to take a moment to recall the good soldiers of the 137th Infantry Regiment and supporting units who fell fighting for this 3km x 4km patch of farmland north of St Lo from July 10 - 19, 1944. Killed.....: 1 12 7 21 17 16 5 13 11 9 = 112 Wounded: 2 96 74 87 106 100 23 61 57 11= 617 Missing...: 0 18 7 17 4 1 2 6 7 1= 63 792 casualties in 9 days. That's over 50% of an estimated initial regiment frontline combat strength of ~1500. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Hi, Ramadi is the finest CM map so far produced in any title in the last eleven years. So as you can guess I am hugely looking forward to final product . Great to see you are off the mark on another record breaking project! We are all lucky to have CM, All the best, Kip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Good luck with this project LLF This is why I have been beating the drums for a "copy-paste" feature so that those of us who want to built copses or spinneys (can you tell I've been reading A.A. Milne to my child? -- to the devil with that Disney rubbish!) or walled Norman farms in excruciating detail down to the last rotten turnip can provide a ready made supply of templates for those who prefer to focus on the OB and the AI plans. I haven't made any maps, but clearly this would be a major help and boost to maps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted May 30, 2011 Author Share Posted May 30, 2011 Argh! The muttonheads who made the Green Book map I showed in the OP mixed up feet and meters when they did the altitudes. The detailed 1951 map (a copy of a German Heer map) and Google Earth both agree -- all my contour lines are worthless. Have to start over again..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 OMG! So sorry to hear that. Take a break, crack open a frosty cold one, and relax a bit to get some distance and a fresh perspective before resuming -- that's my RX in situations like that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Argh! The muttonheads who made the Green Book map I showed in the OP mixed up feet and meters when they did the altitudes. The detailed 1951 map (a copy of a German Heer map) and Google Earth both agree -- all my contour lines are worthless. Have to start over again..... Are you sure? Google earth shows about 60-70 metres elevation change from la vire to le carillon. You certainly aren't out by a factor of three. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rake Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Argh! The muttonheads who made the Green Book map I showed in the OP mixed up feet and meters when they did the altitudes. The detailed 1951 map (a copy of a German Heer map) and Google Earth both agree -- all my contour lines are worthless. Have to start over again..... Yeah LLF, I'd noticed that a few of those maps have horizontal scales in yards and the vertical scale in meters. A bit of a pain, but the conversion is simple enough. The worst part is just having to start again from scratch 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Interestingly, the "St Fromond General map" linked at the start of the thread puts Le Carillon at only 25m elevation. Google earth and google maps put it at 40m but with a very steep rising slope just behind it rising another 30m over about 500m. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jief Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Hi Perhaps could help a link to IGN site http://www.geoportail.fr/5069711/visu2D/afficher-en-2d.htm?cg=djoxLjEqYzptZXRyb3BvbGUqY3Y6MS4wKnZ2OjEuMSp4eTotMS41NjM4ODE0ODUwMzU5OTg3fDQ5LjI5NTYzNTEwMDM0MTQxKnM6OSpwdjoxLjAqcDpkZWNvdXZlcnRlKmw6UGhvdG98fHwsU2NhbnwxfHw%3D you could print map and pics, usefull 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankster65 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 You guys are masters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 Thanks for the help and suggestions, all. Work is busy this week but I hope to look at it again this weekend. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Awesome! The bigger, the better. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 My plan is to release the big map of the 2.5 wide x 3km deep battleground of the 137th Infantry (basically the east bank of the Vire from Le Meauffe to the Pt Hebert-St Lo highway) for anyone and everyone who wants it for whatever. For manageability the "master map" will be nearly devoid of vegetation, and will contain the Vire River, the contours and gullies, the road and rail net, and the major settlements/ buildings. The outline of the fields and forests will be mapped out using placeholder terrain. Scenario builders can then easily fill in the bocage and trees and doodads once they carve out the submaps (which is simply a matter of shrinking the size of the map to fit the specific battle). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Looks interesting, keep up the good work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 My plan is to release the big map of the 2.5 wide x 3km deep battleground of the 137th Infantry (basically the east bank of the Vire from Le Meauffe to the Pt Hebert-St Lo highway) for anyone and everyone who wants it for whatever. For manageability the "master map" will be nearly devoid of vegetation, and will contain the Vire River, the contours and gullies, the road and rail net, and the major settlements/ buildings. The outline of the fields and forests will be mapped out using placeholder terrain. Scenario builders can then easily fill in the bocage and trees and doodads once they carve out the submaps (which is simply a matter of shrinking the size of the map to fit the specific battle). And, as a reminder to all, my 4km x 4km map will be set up the same way, and will match up with LLF's map to take the mapped area all the way east to about the St Lo-Isigny highway. (I've got my last 8 contours left to lay down, then it's on to the land patterns). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 Hi Perhaps could help a link to IGN site http://www.geoportail.fr/5069711/visu2D/afficher-en-2d.htm?cg=djoxLjEqYzptZXRyb3BvbGUqY3Y6MS4wKnZ2OjEuMSp4eTotMS41NjM4ODE0ODUwMzU5OTg3fDQ5LjI5NTYzNTEwMDM0MTQxKnM6OSpwdjoxLjAqcDpkZWNvdXZlcnRlKmw6UGhvdG98fHwsU2NhbnwxfHw%3D you could print map and pics, usefull Merci beaucoup! The IGN map was très utile, as it gives benchmark altitudes in metres by location. À bientôt.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I admire detailed mapmakers immensely, I am a great fan of maps in any form. I take it that rail icons have a very unsubtle choice of curves which is a shame. Is it likely BF will introduce new items to the editor in the future. I suppose I mean I am sure they will but will any of them be more refined rail squares!!? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Finished the elevation contouring for my 4km x 4km neighboring map yesterday. (I sure hope people will still be interested in playing bocage battles even after the next module comes out! I still will. But I know a lot -- maybe even most -- of the community will be sick of the bocage by then). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 I admire detailed mapmakers immensely, I am a great fan of maps in any form. I take it that rail icons have a very unsubtle choice of curves which is a shame. Is it likely BF will introduce new items to the editor in the future. Yeah, ran into that problem already with the tactically important rail line (plus cuts and embankments) running from La Meauffe south along the Vire. It has to take a number of 45 degree bends instead of the historically accurate curves. I guess we'll live. The large highway come out a lot more flexible and realistic looking but there just aren't many autobahns in Normandy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Amherst Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 "Biography of a Battalion" James A. Huston (Battalion OPs Officer) 3rd Battalion, 134th Infantry Regiment, 35th Division "The Clay Pigeons of St Lo" Glover S. Johns Jr (Battalion Commander) 1st Battalion, 115th Infantry Regiment, 29th Division 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Finished the elevation contouring for my 4km x 4km neighboring map yesterday. (I sure hope people will still be interested in playing bocage battles even after the next module comes out! I still will. But I know a lot -- maybe even most -- of the community will be sick of the bocage by then). Ha not likely, you put out a 4x4 map and it can be edited to take out the bocage and used as something else. :-D Maps are always welcome and the work will never be wasted. The map I really want to make if I ever stop playing enough to actually spend the effort on the map is for a depiction of the battles of the 4th Armored at Arracourt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 "Biography of a Battalion" James A. Huston (Battalion OPs Officer) 3rd Battalion, 134th Infantry Regiment, 35th Division "The Clay Pigeons of St Lo" Glover S. Johns Jr (Battalion Commander) 1st Battalion, 115th Infantry Regiment, 29th Division Thanks for the refs, but while these units were definitely deployed in the area, AFAIK they weren't involved in the heavy fighting in the map area I'm building out (see OP). The 119th was the unit relieved by 137th on June 10th, which then carried the assault forward to the St Hebert road. The 134th, another 35th ID regiment, was in a heavy fight further to the east. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Sburke, hi, The map I really want to make if I ever stop playing enough to actually spend the effort on the map is for a depiction of the battles of the 4th Armored at Arracourt. Great minds think alike . I did build such a map during beta testing but it was mid way through testing and since then hard coded things have changed. Terrain changes that sort of thing. Thus it would just crash. I guess it is open country tank warfare you are after? If so I was too. We are lucky to have CM... All the best, Kip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Sburke, hi, Great minds think alike . I did build such a map during beta testing but it was mid way through testing and since then hard coded things have changed. Terrain changes that sort of thing. Thus it would just crash. I guess it is open country tank warfare you are after? If so I was too. We are lucky to have CM... All the best, Kip. Great minds... thanks for including me. Beautifulpeople.com kicked me out so my ego can use the boost. Yeah don't get me wrong, I love the infantry tactics necessary to function in the bocage, but the war of maneuver that could be represented in an Arracourt campaign just lights me up. Throw in the fog, confused night engagements etc and you have a mix guaranteed to shine in CM. Only problem is the total battle area is huge. It would need to be broken up into separate engagements. The distances involved that were mostly movement versus actual fighting make it hard to envision how to build a campaign that rewards the kind actions that Abrams and others implemented without simply replicating ambush battles. One would have to be pretty creative on the order of the Devil's descent campaign. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Ha not likely, you put out a 4x4 map and it can be edited to take out the bocage and used as something else. :-D Maps are always welcome and the work will never be wasted. The map I really want to make if I ever stop playing enough to actually spend the effort on the map is for a depiction of the battles of the 4th Armored at Arracourt. Well, the nice thing is, my 4 x 4 map will be a "clean" release with no objects on it and no hedgerows -- just the contoured terrain and the pattern of road/land tiles accurately representing that corner of La Belle France. So with that map as a starting point, others can make almost anything. My own purpose will be to save copies, resize them, and then detail the heck out of them for bocage scenarios (of, say, 2km x 2km or less for company and battalion-scale battles), as needed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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