First Impressions (CM:BN Full Release)

[Vanir Ausf B]

Newbie over here, but long time gamer - This is my first CM game, and my first impressions of it are that it looks promising but good lord could it be any more difficult to get into? Thanks for the early download for pre-orders, but the tutorial missions are not playable without the manual by your side - Would it really have been so hard to have a text box pop up to give you the instructions?

I did play the CMx1 games, but not CMSF. I booted up the demo and was completely lost. So I bit the bullet and read a chunk of the online manual. I started on page 62 and went through page 110. After that I had little trouble doing what I wanted to do.

My other primary complaint is the camera, which feels....sticky... Is it something you get used to? It feels like when I press "W" to move the camera forward it goes a tiny bit, but then pauses as if expecting that's as much movement as I wanted and then only after I convincingly hold down the button for an extra beat then it goes into a very fast (compared to the size of the maps) scroll that generally overshoots where I wanted to get to - This seems true of all buttons, and it's a problem I've never had with a camera system before - Very jarring, if I'm missing some trick to it please let me know.

I've found holding down the mouse buttons gave me the smoothest movement. Using the keys is very herky jerky.

[guachi]

Newbie over here, but long time gamer - This is my first CM game, and my first impressions of it are that it looks promising but good lord could it be any more difficult to get into? Thanks for the early download for pre-orders, but the tutorial missions are not playable without the manual by your side - Would it really have been so hard to have a text box pop up to give you the instructions?

My other primary complaint is the camera, which feels....sticky... Is it something you get used to? It feels like when I press "W" to move the camera forward it goes a tiny bit, but then pauses as if expecting that's as much movement as I wanted and then only after I convincingly hold down the button for an extra beat then it goes into a very fast (compared to the size of the maps) scroll that generally overshoots where I wanted to get to - This seems true of all buttons, and it's a problem I've never had with a camera system before - Very jarring, if I'm missing some trick to it please let me know.

Other than that game looks very deep but very satisfying - The WEGO system is an astonishing idea that both simplifies and deepens the experience in a way no other developer, regardless of size or prestige has yet. So kudos to that, and really I'd just encourage you to take the time and make some of these front-end systems a little easier to work with, because the game isn't *that* complex, but the presentation makes it very intimidating.

I basically agree with everything you stated. The game is not particularly easy to get into regarding controls. etc. However, it has one of the best user bases out there and, since you are posting here, you certainly have access to it.

I played CMx1 games but I never bought CM:SF based on the CMx2 engine. But I did play the CM:SF demo while waiting for CM:BN to come out. I didn't particularly like the camera controls. They seem basically the same in CM:BN and I didn't like them in the CM:BN demo. But someone pointed out that you can hold down the left mouse button and move the mouse (move camera) or the right mouse button and move the mouse (rotate camera). I don't bother with the keyboard (I'm left-handed and it isn't smooth) or moving the mouse to the edge of the screen (too much waving around on a 30" monitor). The sensitivity might need to be tweaked, but I think it's the best way to move the camera.

I also love the WEGO system. Perfect for those who play a little slower. And the fact that you don't have complete control means you can enjoy the turn replays. Can't think of many games that allow you to play and rewind the game over and over and over.

[Battlefront.com]

Newbie over here, but long time gamer - This is my first CM game, and my first impressions of it are that it looks promising but good lord could it be any more difficult to get into?

Welcome, and yes it could be

Thanks for the early download for pre-orders, but the tutorial missions are not playable without the manual by your side - Would it really have been so hard to have a text box pop up to give you the instructions?

Yes, incredibly hard for two reasons:

1. Because of what you can do, where you can do it, when you can do it, what you can do it with, and who you can do it to... a traditional "hold you by the hand" demo system doesn't really work for our type of game. The environment is, in a sense, too chaotic. Since that's the nature of warfare, the game must reflect it or there's going to be serious problems with the game itself.

2. This is a very, very time consuming feature to add to the game. Big companies usually have one or even two programmers working on this sort of thing. If we did that we'd have to cut features out of the game itself.

My other primary complaint is the camera, which feels....sticky... Is it something you get used to?

We're trying to figure out why this is true for some systems. We thought we had it all fixed.

Having said that, many players use the mouse to navigate and the keyboard to issue Commands and other things.

So kudos to that, and really I'd just encourage you to take the time and make some of these front-end systems a little easier to work with, because the game isn't *that* complex, but the presentation makes it very intimidating.

Which gets me back to my initial comment that yeah, we could make it a LOT more difficult to get into The thing is the game is more complex that probably any other you've ever played before (just a guess). And not by a little, but by a lot. At least in terms of the breadth of options, unit types, terrain, and possible ways these things interact. The fact you appear interested to keep going with the game shows how good the UI is, because quite frankly far less detailed wargames have sent people running away screaming (including wargamers).

That all being said... there are definitely ways we can make the game easier to play. That's our next major plan for the game engine.

Steve

[sburke]

Well as promised by the beta testers, the maps are amazing. Am playing one of the battles (huzzar) that has a good size map and am trying not to just spend too much time rolling around the map, but it is amazing.

The demo was nice but like drinking 2 buck chuck when Opus 1 is now ready for download.

incredible guys, really just incredible, and I haven't even gotten to the vehicles etc.

[LJFHutch]

Well my first impression was that the 3 QB maps I picked (tried to get nice looking ones from the menu) were nowhere near as good as those from NATO, I expected them to be of similar quality. One map actually had giant zig-zagging height "artifacts" (?) from not enough height points. So that was a bit disappointing.

Another negative from me is that the foliage bug is still in: you see the foliage of the rear of the tree in front of the parts you should be seeing, the same happens with branches, it just means that foliage up close is really ugly. Not sure if this is an ATI related issue or not.

Finally, the AI seems a little odd, compared to the demo they're very weak and sometimes seem to "forget" about units, just leaving 2 tanks and a few infantry squads chillin' in a field. They also seem to like throwing their units one after the other at the enemy even after their main assault failed horrendously (70+% enemy casualties compared to about 5-10% friendly from my pov).

As a plus however I also discovered that when positioned correctly AT guns are nasty machines of death and even a single medium tank can completely annihilate an advance by sprinting back and forth when needed.

Not only that but the QB force selection (and the editor for that matter) is even better than I anticipated

After playing around with the full game however I can't help but feel it's not anywhere near as polished as CMSF is now, the foliage issue, the bland and sometimes ugly QB maps and spotty AI are all quite a bit below my expectations coming from SF. Don't think I don't enjoy it though, and I don't want to sound ungrateful, just my thoughts on it. I'm sure most of those issues will be resolved.

[Greup]

It would be worth the effort to brush up your skills on mouse camera movement controls. Keyboard command definitely comes in a distant second.

From my limited experience (i.e. demo playing) I can but agree. The buttons for camera movement controls (except the pivoting ones) are close to useless. Mouse is *much* better for this. If it was possible I would prefer to have user configurable modifier keys in conjunction to mouse movement such as [cntrl |shift |command | alt ]-click + drag for different camera behavior.

For me the main disappointment with the hotkeys config is that you can only assign a single key as a hotkey and that cntrl/cmd/alt/shift + keypad keys are not available. Being able to use the modifier keys in assigning would multiply the amount of possible actions assigned to keys and to make a personalized "workflow" for each user easier.

[FragerZ]

I just had a Sherman destroyed on the first shot by a panzershrek, 280m away

Anyways, the campaign AI is fairly good. I got pwned real hard when I ran a squad in to try to medic two other squads that were crushed by artillery, after the artillery stopped. But a minute later, it started again and killed that squad. So I though, "well, okay. Now it MUST be over". So I sent another squad in. I was wrong

[Battlefront.com]

Well my first impression was that the 3 QB maps I picked (tried to get nice looking ones from the menu) were nowhere near as good as those from NATO, I expected them to be of similar quality. One map actually had giant zig-zagging height "artifacts" (?) from not enough height points. So that was a bit disappointing.

Well, 3 down and 314 left to try out

Another negative from me is that the foliage bug is still in: you see the foliage of the rear of the tree in front of the parts you should be seeing, the same happens with branches, it just means that foliage up close is really ugly. Not sure if this is an ATI related issue or not.

Never seen this before. The entire code and modeling for trees is completely different from CM:SF. So it's hard to understand why you have a fairly unique problem for two entirely different ways of drawing foliage. I assume you're using the latest 11.5 drivers? We've got plenty of ATI cards in the testing arena.

Finally, the AI seems a little odd, compared to the demo they're very weak and sometimes seem to "forget" about units, just leaving 2 tanks and a few infantry squads chillin' in a field. They also seem to like throwing their units one after the other at the enemy even after their main assault failed horrendously (70+% enemy casualties compared to about 5-10% friendly from my pov).

This is always about the scripts specific to that particular battle. The AI coding for CM:BN is improved over CM:SF, but not as much as we wanted. It's on our ToDo List.

As a plus however I also discovered that when positioned correctly AT guns are nasty machines of death and even a single medium tank can completely annihilate an advance by sprinting back and forth when needed.

Relative spotting sure does allow crew served weapons to serve a little longer

Not only that but the QB force selection (and the editor for that matter) is even better than I anticipated

I've seen a lot of people say this in a very short period of time. I have to keep biting my tongue from saying "I told you so" There were a lot of doubters and we're just happy we didn't disappoint. Though it seems we've done a bit better than that.

After playing around with the full game however I can't help but feel it's not anywhere near as polished as CMSF is now, the foliage issue, the bland and sometimes ugly QB maps and spotty AI are all quite a bit below my expectations coming from SF. Don't think I don't enjoy it though, and I don't want to sound ungrateful, just my thoughts on it. I'm sure most of those issues will be resolved.

Yup, the game will always get better over time. However, don't think you should take for granted all the stuff that's working very well that isn't in CM:SF. There's hardly a feature in CM:BN that wasn't improved over CM:SF, not to mention all the stuff that CM:SF never had. And the list of that is quite long, given we moved to both a temperate environment and a WW2 setting all at the same time.

Steve

[Zakhal]

I also love the WEGO system. Perfect for those who play a little slower. And the fact that you don't have complete control means you can enjoy the turn replays. Can't think of many games that allow you to play and rewind the game over and over and over.

Me too but I would also like a slower 1:2 timescale. Things move up a bit too fast in realtime to enjoy all the rich details. PCO and I think first CMs have it so why not CMx2 also?

[Scratchy]

The environments look better than they did in the demo--at least I think they do.

All the weather types are a prodigious accomplishment.

I had a great sense of appreciation when I realized I'll be playing this game for years to come. It's very rare where that happens--for me at least. I play all sorts of games and have been doing so for many years. I can count on one hand's worth of fingers the number of games that fall into the permanent collection category. I know we can't name other game names, but I bet you all have a few like that too.

Way to go, BF!

Now, back to the war...

[Battlefront.com]

Me too but I would also like a slower 1:2 timescale. Things move up a bit too fast in realtime to enjoy all the rich details. PCO and I think first CMs have it so why not CMx2 also?

CMx1 did not have variable speed settings. It's occasionally requested, but it would be a mess. Sound effects would either sound like an old record player at the wrong speed or the 1/2 the action would be going on without the sounds. I don't think it would be very enjoyable.

The best way to replay, IMHO, is to pick one portion of the battle and watch that and only that. Then move to a different portion of the battle and watch that and only that.

Steve

[Cull]

A couple of people have mentioned that the full game looks/plays better than the demo, and I agree. Not sure how to explain it but it struck me immediately.

My "first impressions"?

Amazing. Really, really fine effort here guys. The detail is insane. As mentioned, the options in Quick Battle are mind-boggling. It looks great, it sounds great, and the game-play is totally immersive.

Congrats to everyone, and thanks. (unlike an earlier poster, I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm a bit misty-eyed over it )

Took Wednesday off of work to play, so I'll be back with real comments later (if my eyes are bleeding too badly)

[LJFHutch]

Never seen this before. The entire code and modeling for trees is completely different from CM:SF. So it's hard to understand why you have a fairly unique problem for two entirely different ways of drawing foliage. I assume you're using the latest 11.5 drivers? We've got plenty of ATI cards in the testing arena.

I've only had the problem with BN, SF works fine (does SF use SpeedTree?). I'll update my drivers and see if that fixes it.

I've seen a lot of people say this in a very short period of time. I have to keep biting my tongue from saying "I told you so" There were a lot of doubters and we're just happy we didn't disappoint. Though it seems we've done a bit better than that.

Haha, well I knew it'd be awesome, but it just works so well! I really like how you attach units to formations too, that's a really nice touch as it allows customization yet keeps everything believable, of course I've known it works like this for months but finally using it is incredible

Yup, the game will always get better over time. However, don't think you should take for granted all the stuff that's working very well that isn't in CM:SF. There's hardly a feature in CM:BN that wasn't improved over CM:SF, not to mention all the stuff that CM:SF never had. And the list of that is quite long, given we moved to both a temperate environment and a WW2 setting all at the same time.

Yeah absolutely, thanks for the reply

[lucero1148]

Hi, I'm using a 17" MBP2011 laptop with a 27" LED display. When I open the Mac demo how do I move the game screen to my 27" display?

Battlefront did an excellent job on tis game. I feel like I did when I first played CMBO, just overawed at the realism of the gameplay and the graphics ...outstanding!

[Vencini]

!OOOoooooooooooooleeeeeeeeeeeee!

[email=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlVoZgM4fgI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlVoZgM4fgI

[bebop]

Stupendous, Unfreakin Believable, Magnificant, Stellar,

Such work is truly award winning, my vote for game of the year.

Such detail!!!

Case in point.. Night time,-- quick battle,---lit up a vehicle and the flames light up the immediate area like a flashlight. BRAVO ---GENTLEMEN ----BRAVO.

Take a bow!!!!!

[Abrams]

FANTASTIC !!!

2 Quick Battles just to get used to the system ...

the 2nd one ended with armor smoking all over the map with my one Sherman dashing around in a village trying to hide from and get in his sights 2 Panthers ...

he popped one in the side at VERY short range ...

it is un nerving how a Panther will leave your sight and all of a sudden pop up in your rear ...

Had a dead Marder explode minutes after being killed ... ammo explosion ? I only had one Sherman left and I didn't shoot the dead Marder !

Impressive game !!!

[Zakhal]

CMx1 did not have variable speed settings. It's occasionally requested, but it would be a mess. Sound effects would either sound like an old record player at the wrong speed or the 1/2 the action would be going on without the sounds. I don't think it would be very enjoyable.

The best way to replay, IMHO, is to pick one portion of the battle and watch that and only that. Then move to a different portion of the battle and watch that and only that.

Steve

I knew it was the sounds. Total war has no sounds on half-speed (I still use it though). However I guess panzer command ostfront did somthing differently because they dont have this sound problem.

[womble]

When I played the first gen games, I made most of my moves using the hotkeys that I had memorized over the years. I didn't see those same hotkeys with this game.

Have a read in the PDF manual about customising hotkeys. There's an 'alternate' hotkeys file that I think tries to replicate the hotkeys from CMx1 as best it can, but any differences can soon be relearned.

[bram1979]

Woke up around 07:00h, took the kids out of bed, walked downstairs, made breakfast, fired up my laptop... and what do you... ITS HERE!

Sweet!!! I made a map right away and placed all the units just to have a look...

:eek:

Freeking awesome... at the moment im playing the first map of the Panzer Lehr campaign. Ill check in later about my findings.

Thnx for the release!

[Gryphonne]

The game is BEAUTIFUL! Too bad the sounds are a bit.. uninspired and some of the sounds are directly taken from CMSF. Well, here's me hoping for the most comprehensive sound mod ever!

[Yskonyn]

Played the first mission of the 2nd Training Campaign: Raff Moves Inland.

Very pleased with what I've been seeing!

Armor and weapons detail is very good. I find the soldiers a bit bland, though, but no doubt the uniform mods will spring up like wildfire soon.

Sounds are very well done as well and of course the bocage / woodland terrain is very nice. Textures are much more crisp and varied than in CMSF, but yeah, what can you make varied in a sandy environment, no?

I read a review (of the beta) while ago which was super negative. Mainly telling readers to stay away, because the full game would be set up for disaster performance wise.

No such thing at all. Full detail and even the big maps run quite well.

The author also complained about pathfinding being a nightmare and that you would have to babysit every unit to make sure it takes the right route.

I suspect that this author wasn't too familiar with the CM series, because what TYPE of movement order you give makes a big difference. For example, if you try to race a tank over a road and then let it turn left at top speed to drive through a fence onto a field, yes it will get in trouble.

But the manual (at least that of CMSF and CMx1 did) states that if you read it. That is why there are several movement orders with varying speed. For deliberate movement through small gaps, always make sure you use a slow speed movement order and it goes just fine.

Had a great moment when I was reviewing the turn, somewhere late in the mission.

I was already moving up from bocage to bocage line on the east side of the map, where a Sherman suddenly spotted a German soldier dashing for the bocage line desperately seeking cover.

The timer was almost over for that turn and right as the tank has shot its main gun and the shell arrived at the soldier, the turn was done. And the scene was frozen. "That must hurt!", was the first thing I thought!

[Plastic viking]

Did a Quick Battle this morning, with random selection of mixed forces on both sides, 30 minutes and relatively small. Two reinforced platoons it seemed like. Playing the American side. I had one Sherman to play with and probably miss-used it, as I got hit 4-5 times by AT guns, but they survived (mostly), panicked, only to be pressed into service again later.

Surprised how effective infantry is at short range against a Marder. I was desperate as the Sherman was panicking. That worked well.

Good work Battle Front. My wife is badgering me to come and get breakfast now and it is almost noon already.

[Yskonyn]

Good work Battle Front. My wife is badgering me to come and get breakfast now and it is almost noon already.

I am finding myself in the exact same position!

[clicheman]

Cha-Ching! The sound of the BF cash register running hot! Great game.

D/L and played my first QB, mainly wanted to see some of the other units....oh the choices, the choices, the choices Grpahics great even on my old video card, updating asap anyway!

Managed to JUST hold on to get a minor victory defending as the Germans. Great moment included bringing down a rocket barrage on the advancing Americans...ohhhh yes, not too accurate but devastating none the less! Really like some of the features like exploding ammo in burning vehicles.

Already called in sick, I can imagine the economy grinding to a halt as I spent time coming to grips with CM2011.

If I can add a couple of units to a wish list for future development.... White scout cars, amphibious jeeps, DUWK's, and the German tracked motorbike Kettenkrad.(just for the sake of seeing one roar around the bf.)

Oh and I'd like to play we-go vs anyone! Is there a specific thread or something for human v human?

Cheers!