Fundamental flaw in onboard mortar targeting

[gunnergoz]

So far, my mortars have been accurate both on direct and FO observed fire. If there is a glitch, I suspect it is related to loss of FO LOS to target. It seems you need continuous, uninterrupted LOS for the FO calling in the request (to direct the fire and give feedback to the mortar section, presumably) or else the rounds may wander.

[Fredrock1957]

I am begining to feel a bit left out, I have not had any problems with odd behaviour from my mortars. They haven't been super accurate and they haven't done anything super daft either. What am I doing wrong?

DITTO !!! everything seems ok for me

[Blackcat]

So far, my mortars have been accurate both on direct and FO observed fire. If there is a glitch, I suspect it is related to loss of FO LOS to target. It seems you need continuous, uninterrupted LOS for the FO calling in the request (to direct the fire and give feedback to the mortar section, presumably) or else the rounds may wander.

That was certainly the case in CMAK. I don't remember it being an issue in CMSF, despite the dusty terrain, but then there was a lot less stray shooting going on (one tended to hit what was aimed at). However, it could just be my imagination, but the amount of dust and crud kicked up by HE rounds seems greater in CMBN than in previous games. I have noticed on several occasions that I can't switch from Target to Target Light because the line of sight is obscured by the dust from last turn's HE rounds is obscuring the target area.

So one possible reason for rounds going astray: the player calls down artillery fire on an target or target zone but there is going to be a delay. So to keep the enemies heads down pending the strike he uses a nearly tank to throw some HE into the area. The HE kicks up dust obscuring the observers view during the spotting phase... Just a thought.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

There are no bugs regarding mortars. It is Mulligan.

[Blackcat]

There are no bugs regarding mortars. It is Mulligan.

That movie is getting referenced a lot on this site recently.

[Baneman]

I've had a new oddity with my mortars - see pic - my HQ unit was in contact with his mortar unit, he had blueline LoS to the aiming point ( I gave him a target command to show that in the pic ), but he could not call in the arty strike at the point required. In game you get a little circle with a strike through it, but it doesn't seem to get captured on the screenie.

He was able to get the arty targetting icon for about half of his total blue line, thereafter, nada.

Hopefully someone can come up with a good reason for this one.

[akd]

I've had a new oddity with my mortars - see pic - my HQ unit was in contact with his mortar unit, he had blueline LoS to the aiming point ( I gave him a target command to show that in the pic ), but he could not call in the arty strike at the point required. In game you get a little circle with a strike through it, but it doesn't seem to get captured on the screenie.

He was able to get the arty targetting icon for about half of his total blue line, thereafter, nada.

Hopefully someone can come up with a good reason for this one.

"No line of fire" means something is physically blocking the line of fire the mortars would need to use to hit that spot. You will see this only occasionally with mortars, since they use very high angle fire. Usually it only crops up with those positioned very close to buildings. This is, however, a much more common occurrence with on-map infantry guns.

[Scratchy]

In my 4 play-through's of RtB as Allies, my mortars are what I'd expect. However, the German side's mortars are sometimes wacky. The last play-through they fired-for-effect on top of their own troops. The spotter was most likely very much suppressed and that might be why. The 1st time I played this scenario, I lolly-gagged around and got hammered by the German mortars.

So, I tend to think it has to do with LOS and suppression...i guess.

FWiW

[Battlefront.com]

I wonder if this poor vision of the target end point has soemthing to do with the behaviour you saw. It is worth noting that the line from the HQ unit to the left end of the line goes straight through a tall bocage tile and there is no break at that point and I think no LOS.

Yes, definitely. If your spotter can't really see where the spotting rounds are falling, then problems can occur. Therefore, very narrow fields of vision of the impact area are most likely going to produce bad results.

As others have said, Emergency fire is more than likely to be quite inaccurate.

I think many of the problems people are seeing are in some way linked to "user error". However, it is possible there's a very, very specific bug linked to some combo of factors that doesn't usually come into play that way. If so, we haven't been able to isolate this within testing. Yet. So far every report we've made about wildly inaccurate artillery results was explained when we dug into a save game file more deeply.

We'll keep looking for something reproducible.

Steve

[silverstars]

That movie is getting referenced a lot on this site recently.

Recently?!? That movie has been referenced on a semi-religious basis for going on 10 years now.

Woof-Woof!

[gunnergoz]

There are no bugs regarding mortars. It is Mulligan.

OK, I'll bite. Mulligan? I googled Mulligan and got a golf term. Movie? Someone said it was a movie...and yes, there is some chick flick about the Mulligans. Sorry, I'm just not getting the reference. Care to let me in on the joke?

[Magpie_Oz]

In saying "woof - woof" (quote from Oddball, Donald Sutherland) I am guessing Kelly's Heroes ?

George Savalis played a character Mulligan who was the mortar commander as I recall ?

[ChrisND]

OK, I'll bite. Mulligan? I googled Mulligan and got a golf term. Movie? Someone said it was a movie...and yes, there is some chick flick about the Mulligans. Sorry, I'm just not getting the reference. Care to let me in on the joke?

Mulligan is the mortar guy from Kelly's Heroes. He was... unreliable.

[gunnergoz]

OK, never saw it, couldn't stand the premise. Thanks though, it makes sense now if it refers to some comedic mortar section commander.

[silverstars]

OK, never saw it, couldn't stand the premise. Thanks though, it makes sense now if it refers to some comedic mortar section commander.

Yeah, if you plan on frequenting this board regularly, watching Kelly's Heroes will help you understand half the things some people say. I hadn't seen the movie until i started reading these forums in 2000. Im glad i've seen it now. And yes, Mulligan is unreliable.

"To pull this thing off you're going to need Mulligan to be On Time and On Target, and he hasn't been either since we got off of Omaha Beach!"

[gunnergoz]

Heh, just noticed I hit 2000 posts with that one. Where's my kewpie doll?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

As it happens, Kellys Heroes has been spread across a dozen YouTube videos, if you have never seen it. For all its gimmicky storyline, a-historical crap and the hippy vibe, it is actually rather good. There are worse ways to spend two hours.

[Hawkmek]

Yes, definitely. If your spotter can't really see where the spotting rounds are falling, then problems can occur. Therefore, very narrow fields of vision of the impact area are most likely going to produce bad results.

As others have said, Emergency fire is more than likely to be quite inaccurate.

I think many of the problems people are seeing are in some way linked to "user error". However, it is possible there's a very, very specific bug linked to some combo of factors that doesn't usually come into play that way. If so, we haven't been able to isolate this within testing. Yet. So far every report we've made about wildly inaccurate artillery results was explained when we dug into a save game file more deeply.

We'll keep looking for something reproducible.

Steve

I have the Save Game file if someone wants to take a look.

I agree, my Mortar had a momentary line to requested target, but then it jumped about 100 degrees and started firing.

I understand user error on my part with regards to LOS, but could we just have the mortar team not fire in these cases? It would be safer and conserve ammo. We need to think of the pixel troops.

[LemoN]

I think many of the problems people are seeing are in some way linked to "user error". However, it is possible there's a very, very specific bug linked to some combo of factors that doesn't usually come into play that way. If so, we haven't been able to isolate this within testing. Yet. So far every report we've made about wildly inaccurate artillery results was explained when we dug into a save game file more deeply.

My bug definitely is no user error and I have reported it 5 times now with people simply ignoring it every time.

There is a high chance for on map mortars to shoot their first 3-5 rounds up to 180° away from the targets. This mostly happens in preliminary strikes.

[stikkypixie]

My bug definitely is no user error and I have reported it 5 times now with people simply ignoring it every time.

There is a high chance for on map mortars to shoot their first 3-5 rounds up to 180° away from the targets. This mostly happens in preliminary strikes.

Send them a save file if possible. Makes things easier.

[LemoN]

Send them a save file if possible. Makes things easier.

How?

Where to?

Actually, this isn't really needed.

Just set preliminary strikes with any on-map mortar, save the game during the setup phase and see the first couple of rounds fall up to 180° away from the target. This doesn't always happen though. Load that savegame 3-5 times, watch the mortars closely (and where their first rounds fall) and you'll see what I mean.

[stikkypixie]

How?

Where to?

Actually, this isn't really needed.

Just set preliminary strikes with any on-map mortar, save the game during the setup phase and see the first couple of rounds fall up to 180° away from the target. This doesn't always happen though. Load that savegame 3-5 times, watch the mortars closely (and where their first rounds fall) and you'll see what I mean.

There isn't a fixed system to do it. If you really feel there is a bug you can try sending a private message or an email to Steve or a beta tester, explaining what you see and providing a save game where the bug can be clearly seen, if they reply.

By the way, what do you mean with falling 180° away from the target?

[LemoN]

By the way, what do you mean with falling 180° away from the target?

The mortar pointing in the exact oposite direction of the target area. After 3-5 rounds it will turn around and hit the target area spot on.

Also, note the up to. Most of the time the first few rounds are only off by 50-500m but sometimes they're on top of my own units or even in the exact opposite direction of the enemy.

[akd]

How?

Where to?

Actually, this isn't really needed.

Just set preliminary strikes with any on-map mortar, save the game during the setup phase and see the first couple of rounds fall up to 180° away from the target. This doesn't always happen though. Load that savegame 3-5 times, watch the mortars closely (and where their first rounds fall) and you'll see what I mean.

I've plotted probably a hundred or more setup fire missions at this point without seeing this, so there must be some more specific set of circumstances.

You are welcome to PM me.

[Blackcat]

How?

Where to?

Actually, this isn't really needed.

Just set preliminary strikes with any on-map mortar, save the game during the setup phase and see the first couple of rounds fall up to 180° away from the target. This doesn't always happen though. Load that savegame 3-5 times, watch the mortars closely (and where their first rounds fall) and you'll see what I mean.

Any programmer will tell you that they can't fix a behaviour that they can't reproduce.

I have just done as you suggested. I set up a prelimnary mortar barrage, saved the game and replayed it, ten times, without once seeing the behaviour you mention. Clearly I am doing something different to you.

If BF are to get to the bottom of this matter then they need to be able to reproduce it. As there are so many variables involved and it doesn't happen all the time, even to you, then a saved file which will produce the behaviour is going to be essential. So why not send them one rather than just dripping here on the forum.