Jump to content

Armor far too accurate...


Recommended Posts

I agree with your analysis c3k.

Surely there is an added wrinkle in that if I were firing smoke then I am not particularly fussed about "hitting". However accurate fire has to be from the halt - and that includes rocking on the tracks. So it seems to me to be very large percentage hits to accuracy when firing at area targets but on the move.

Going for specific targets needs a halt or incredibly short range and head on at lowish speed - with miss possibilities.

The idea of not stopping to shoot a Tiger [CMBB anone] can hopefully be tweaked to account for never being face on, or turret face on, before deciding to stop or go. Wiht of course a random factor : )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 197
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@GSX: i cannot see the problem why a tank shoulnd be able to: spot a enemy target at 800m (even if the tank isnt facing the target) and instantly slew in the target direction and start fire. at least if the commander looks out of the turret. its a matter of 2-3 seconds: commander spots the enemy with his binoculars, gives the location to the gunner, the gunner aims at the target and fires...

once again, maybe Im not making myself clear or explaining what Im seeing too well.

I dont have a particular problem with spotting something that is head on or within the frontal hemisphere, of course I agree that vehicles should be able to spot each other at those ranges. Armour is a big thing after all.

What Im seeing though is instant spotting, then turning to engage AND hitting 1st time, every time.

Ive never fired or crewed a ww2 Panther but I would be very much astounded if a real life Panther could do this every time.

So to be clear. Im not arguing about the accuracy of a Panther to hit a stationery spotted target at 800 meters.

I am commenting about the results I see when a Panther (or M-10) can instantly spot a vehicle over 800 meters, and hit it first time, every time. And worse still, even when the target is moving, or has appeared up to 90 degrees from the front. As has been mentioned earlier, it just feels robotic and CMSF like.

Anyone can play this Hotseat and see it for themselves I suppose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On this issue, please keep in mind that CMBN is very much a work in progress and we are now at v 1.0. All the basic elements of WW2 tank warfare are there and work well enough, but no doubt this as well as other aspects will be further tweaked as we go though patches/modules and on to the Bulge/late war game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's remember there's a 'third player' participating in these engagements besides Allied and Axis and thats the terrain. A guaranteed first shot hit firing across a valley in mid day probably won't be quite so guaranteed when you're working with an intervening rise in ground covered in tall hay in low light conditions. You got to try three demo maps. After game release you'll have all those scenario maps, campaign maps and (last time I counted) 300-ish QB maps to test your theories on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What Im seeing though is instant spotting, then turning to engage AND hitting 1st time, every time.

Ive never fired or crewed a ww2 Panther but I would be very much astounded if a real life Panther could do this every time.

So to be clear. Im not arguing about the accuracy of a Panther to hit a stationery spotted target at 800 meters.

I am commenting about the results I see when a Panther (or M-10) can instantly spot a vehicle over 800 meters, and hit it first time, every time. And worse still, even when the target is moving, or has appeared up to 90 degrees from the front. As has been mentioned earlier, it just feels robotic and CMSF like.

Anyone can play this Hotseat and see it for themselves I suppose.

I have seen it as well. This comment/observation should include whether the tanks were buttoned or unbuttoned. Spotting should be noticeably faster for unbuttoned tanks, so one might begin by asking questions about the spotting ability of the buttoned tanks, and then follow on with the "robotic" slew, aim, fire, and HIT response we are seeing in the game. IMHO FWIW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For example in the 1970s Tank Gunnery manuals, the initial paragragh on the intoduction states that a stationary M4 Sherman (76mm) firing at a stationary target only 500 YARDS had to fire 13 shots BEFORE it reached only a 50% chance to hit. Wargamers could find all the misses tedious.
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=224175

!1? where is that manual. And what was the target??

The first essential for good fire control was a vision device for each crew member. This was usually a periscope at each crew position, although the gunner might rely on his sighting telescope alone. The commander had a flat cupola with a periscope. Either the periscope or the whole cupola could be rotated to give 360 degree vision. Of course the commander could not see in every direction at once and so relied on all crew members observing.

The commander would identify a target and aim the turret approximately using a sighting vane. The gunner would then aim accurately using his telescope sight.

Estimating range was not very sophisticated. Usually the commander guessed the range relying on experience and objects near to the target to give perspective and scale. He had a multi vane sight which gave some idea of the range, which was judged by the amount of the sight the target filled. Allowance had to be made for the size of the target, which depended on accurate identification, and for oblique targets. Observing the fall of shot or following the trajectory by means of a tracer gave an opportunity to correct the range but usually the first shot was the most important. High velocity guns gave a flat trajectory at reasonably short range so did not need so much adjustment for range.

Traverse was powered on the heavy turrets of later tanks. The British introduced hydraulic traverse which was very smooth and allowed the gunner to traverse the turret rapidly to approximately the correct bearing. It was then possible to traverse smoothly and at a variable rate in order to track a moving target and then traverse very slowly and smoothly for accurate aiming. However hydraulic traverse was expensive to make and, more important, it was difficult to maintain because of dust getting in and oil leaking out. Later tanks such as Churchill VII, Comet and Challenger used electric traverse. Manual control was always available as a back up.

Elevation for the 6pdr and 75mm was mechanical which made firing on the move impractical. US tanks introduced electrical gun stabilisers which did allow firing on the move. However it was not possible to be accurate enough to ensure a first round hit so that British crews used it to approximately track a target and then stopped to fire.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/armour/28481-royal-armoured-corps-introduction.html

And as an aside to Bill Shatzer, with respect, the statement that "No

WW2 tank had any fire-on-the move capabilities, at least not with any

accuracy sufficient to hit a target" isn't quite correct either. In

fact the stabilizers emplyed in the M4 Medium and the T26 (later M26)

Heavy Tanks were pretty capable, but required a fair degree of

training, practice, and faith for it to work. The British in fact

tested the stablizers on the early M4 in the desert and found that a

trained gunner could fire with a high degree of accuracy while moving

at - granted - moderate speeds over "typical" desert terrain (level,

but fairly rocky). The kicker was though that apparently few gunners

or tank commanders really trusted the system, so rarely made use of

it.

But at the same time, it did work, the proof is in the pudding and the

destruction of the famous "Cologne" Panther that was captured by

Signal Corps movie photographers is probably the best proof. It

actually knocked out a US M4 76mm before a T26 of the ZEBRA mission

assigned to 3rd Armored approached it at high speed at an angle down

one of the city streets. The T26 put three rounds into the Panther -

all hitting in a very close grouping - without stopping or slowing

down, before the Panther could get off a shot. In fact there has been

some speculation that the Panther gunner was in fact waiting for the

T26 to stop before firing himself, so as to get the simplist firing

solution.

Hope that's interesting.

http://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/world-war-ii/3039/Tiger-the-most-overrated-tank-in-WW2

However that does sound very close range, head-on and driving on road. So pretty much optimal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good links Diesel - from the first link, this quote also makes a lot of sense "If you move the muzzle of a gun 1" as you fire, how far off your aim point will you be at 300 meters? Now, just imaging being in a vehicle as it rumbles, jumbles and bumps its way across the terrain. The entire time the muzzle is moving every which way, where will your "aimed" shot go? If you plan to do more than recon by fire, the short halt is a must. This changes as stabilization system appear and improve for main gun/coax only"

I'd say that if a target appears in an AFV's Covered Arc while it's on the move, it should stop and have a go. Otherwise, it should keep moving and not shoot at all. But shooting on the move doesn't seem at all realistic.

That's just my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tanks firing at a squitty little Tiger at a flank at 500 yards.

1. A Tiger was observed about 3,000 yards away, engaging three Shermans. When it set one of the Shermans afire, the other two withdrew over a crest. A 17-pounder was brought up to within 2,400 yards of the Tiger, and engaged it from a flank. When the Tiger realized that it was being engaged by a high-velocity gun, it swung around 90 degrees so that its heavy frontal armor was toward the gun. In the ensuing duel, one round hit the turret, another round hit the suspension, and two near-short rounds probably ricocheted into the tank. The tank was not put out of action. The range was too great to expect a kill; hence the New Zealanders' tactics were to make the Tiger expose its flank to the Shermans at a range of almost 500 yards, by swinging around onto the antitank gun. The Tiger did just this, and, when it was engaged by the Shermans, it withdrew. The enemy infantry protection of half a dozen to a dozen men was engaged by machine guns.

http://www.lonesentry.com/tigerflorence/index.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say tank gunnery (including survivability) was the aspect of CM:BN that was hammered on more than anything else during testing. In fact, just last week we had a 300 post discussion about when crews should bail out based on damage sustained.

People have to remember that a good crew, decent LOS, should produce a hit first shot almost all the time when ranges are under 400m or so. Whether it is a Sherman 75 or a Panther, there should be an extremely small chance of a miss at such ranges. When you extend out from there things change dramatically.

We've done just about every test range scenario you can think of to double check where things are at. Are they perfect the way they are now? Eh... I hate that word so I'd say "no". Are there any significant problems with this stuff at the moment? No, I think we've proven that things are pretty damned good actually.

Steve

I have to agree with Steve. In the scenerio "Closing the Gap" the ranges from Hillside to Hillside was around 800m at the very most. Even at this range I was seeing some misses from the Panther, M10's and the Shermans... I have played that scenerio 4 times, and have noticed that if the Allied or axis forces were closing on the village shortening the range that both sides would take excessive number of hits if their opposition had good LOS
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Sherman 75mm gun wasn't known for being particularly inaccurate, just an ineffective hole puncher. Typical combat AARs invariably seem to read "We spotted the Panther from (+-)600m, fired, and were horrified to see our AP shell bounce skyward."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to agree with Steve. In the scenerio "Closing the Gap" the ranges from Hillside to Hillside was around 800m at the very most. Even at this range I was seeing some misses from the Panther, M10's and the Shermans... I

I think its fair to say this IS working, if the tanks are closer there are way more frist round hits (less than 400 m) if the tanks are far apart (more than 800m) you will see some bracketing where the rounds fall short or fire over the top of the target and fall long, this is realistic and as an aspect of the simulation of WWII tank gunnery I think the accuracy changing depending on range is working quite well in the game. IMO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think its fair to say this IS working, if the tanks are closer there are way more frist round hits (less than 400 m) if the tanks are far apart (more than 800m) you will see some bracketing where the rounds fall short or fire over the top of the target and fall long, this is realistic and as an aspect of the simulation of WWII tank gunnery I think the accuracy changing depending on range is working quite well in the game. IMO

Exactly... this is why I think its fair to say that they (battlefront team) has it spot on right now. There are alot of factors in not only targeting but execution with each tank crew, Battlefront has already stated im sure the numerous ammount of time they have spent, and playing both the Germans and Allied forces 2-3 times each, I have to say its one Hell of a shootout at 800m. But the Panther will have so far had no trouble brewing up any Sherman or M10 as they decended down the hill within 458-530meters. That being said When I was playing as the US I had my M10's in hull down Overwatch, and they were engaging the Panthers at 750-810meters give or take and some of the SHells were missing, ricoceting, penetrating ans spawling the armor... Everthing was going well, but it was a 76mm that KO'd a Panther while traversing and got a good angle hit from 450m. The other Panther was taking out by a side Hull Shot from the 57mm ATG.. only after taking direct fire from the Panther which missed... and the 57mm ATG had no less then 6 Hits on the Panther.. I think it was the 7th that took it out from about 400m.

Anyways.. I think the accuracy is just fine. In fact Im playing the US side again "Close the Pocket" because its pretty intense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think its fair to say this IS working, if the tanks are closer there are way more frist round hits (less than 400 m) if the tanks are far apart (more than 800m) you will see some bracketing where the rounds fall short or fire over the top of the target and fall long, this is realistic and as an aspect of the simulation of WWII tank gunnery I think the accuracy changing depending on range is working quite well in the game. IMO

I thinks its honestly fair to say that this IS NOT working as there is no bracketing. I have just dont the thing again as German and my Panthers never missed the target, either buttoned or unbuttoned. Same thing happened. Sherman crests rise, Panther turns, shoots and hits 1st time.

M10 runs right to left, panther (buttoned) turns about 40 degrees, shoots, hits 1st time.

Range, between 750 and 850 meters.

I reiterate for the last time, there is no bracketing, its CMSF robot shooting Im seeing.

It simply means that if playing the AI all you need to do is wait.

Try this, play Germans in WEGO in this scenario. Hide all of your forces except the spotter team. When the game starts Fast Forward until the Panthers arrive. Move only 1 Panther up to the hill where the spotter is but keep it close to the trees and slightly back, not hull down though. Simply wait for Allied Armour to start popping up. I have yet to see a 1st shot miss. Last time Panther hit at 824 Meters 1st shot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's really hard to tell for sure how well accuracy in the game will be until we all get to see some long range battles. The current scenarios included with the demo make for pretty short range duals. At these ranges, the crews could basically bore-sight their weapons...

I do look forward to some longer range action in the near future as that is when I'll start to complain ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thinks its honestly fair to say that this IS NOT working as there is no bracketing. I have just dont the thing again as German and my Panthers never missed the target, either buttoned or unbuttoned. Same thing happened. Sherman crests rise, Panther turns, shoots and hits 1st time.

M10 runs right to left, panther (buttoned) turns about 40 degrees, shoots, hits 1st time.

Range, between 750 and 850 meters.

I reiterate for the last time, there is no bracketing, its CMSF robot shooting Im seeing.

It simply means that if playing the AI all you need to do is wait.

It is not actually unrealistic. Today, the weapon aims automatically. in WW2, they had stuff, to aim very well. even on 1000 meters, that was important, for the Germans especialy, because they could destroy allied Tanks 1000 meters away with their jagdpanther..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thinks its honestly fair to say that this IS NOT working as there is no bracketing. I have just dont the thing again as German and my Panthers never missed the target, either buttoned or unbuttoned. Same thing happened. Sherman crests rise, Panther turns, shoots and hits 1st time.

M10 runs right to left, panther (buttoned) turns about 40 degrees, shoots, hits 1st time.

Range, between 750 and 850 meters.

I reiterate for the last time, there is no bracketing, its CMSF robot shooting Im seeing.

It simply means that if playing the AI all you need to do is wait.

Interesting. As stated above I have had completely different results then yourself. I have seen the Panther Miss a ATG at less then 400m, and I have also seen my own Panthers shoot the freaking ground not 300m in front of them as they had misjudged a slight defilated area. Anyways by the end of today I would have played the US and German side about 5 times each (closing the Pocket). I have been getting different results each time... well since I know the map and how much each force has... mostly different results, but the demo is still showing the AI capablity to try and adapt to the Human players move pretty good.

Also I just wanted to add that the Russians were either shocked or had a coming to jesus if you will when their tanks were getting anhialated at 1200-2000m from Panthers. I think everyone knows in certain reads that the best thing the Germans had going for them vs the masses was distance... and the Germans managed to do pretty well vs roaming Soviet T-34's etc. That being said, the demo does not suprise me one bit when a Panther engages from what I would call CLOSE COMBAT Ranges of 400-800m and instantly brews up a Sherman. That also being said the Panther is highly vulnerable vs the Allied tanks from flank attack or by the 76mm gun of the M-10 or Sherman, as I have witnessed in the demo numerous times. (One incident involving 3 Shermans firing from 600+ meters and the Panther crew bails, after a casualty and track damage... the Shermans ended up brewing the Panther regardless.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One test you can do is get one of those 'robot shooting' incidents saved as a savegame between turns. If you're between turns the game hasn't processed the next turn yet. If you repeat that turn over and over you'll probably see a wide variety of results.

Back while working on tanker uniform textures I found myself rerunning a duel between a M10 and a Stug G over and over. Hit GO: First round hits, or ricochets, or misses, or spalling, or penetrations, maybe panicked crews bailing, sometimes the other side winnig, smoke being popped. All manner of equally likely results just from hitting GO over and over on the same turn play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have noticed those Shermans come rushing over that hill,down a long forward slope,in the face of a very experienced Panther crew at 800 metres and closing...

...well i mean you know,it don't matter how many shots it takes those puppies are toast.

I haven't played the US side yet but i sure as hell won't be doing that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Without question, I have seen shots being bracketed in the game. Range and crew quality and morale state may be factors. You may be happier with this aspect when you get the full game.

Yes, I think you may be right. Remember, I'm not arguing that Panthers shouldn't kill at these ranges I'm simply reporting what I'm seeing in my games. Also, no one should be closing with the enemy in a Panther unless they really have to the key to using them is their range.

That said, I always believed that the point of the Demo was to sell the game, not to ask me to buy the game first and tell me I will see it's OK then.

I'm buying it anyway........ So no worries in that department.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thinks its honestly fair to say that this IS NOT working as there is no bracketing. I have just dont the thing again as German and my Panthers never missed the target, either buttoned or unbuttoned. Same thing happened. Sherman crests rise, Panther turns, shoots and hits 1st time.

M10 runs right to left, panther (buttoned) turns about 40 degrees, shoots, hits 1st time.

Range, between 750 and 850 meters.

I reiterate for the last time, there is no bracketing, its CMSF robot shooting Im seeing.

Historical hit probability for 1st shot at that distance was above 90%.

So you will have to see this happen 9 times for observing only 1 miss.

CMx1 was way off in that regard.

But what should not happen is hitting while driving.

Interesting. As stated above I have had completely different results then yourself. I have seen the Panther Miss a ATG at less then 400m, and I have also seen my own Panthers shoot the freaking ground not 300m in front of them as they had misjudged a slight defilated area.

From the result this doesn't sound strange to me. Aiming for ATGs was a more difficult task:

While the range for a tank only has to be estimated +-200m @1000m for a hit with the 88 (Panther not much worse, i guess), which allowed several visors to hit, but to knock out a ATG the range estimation must be very close because the ATG is much smaller and therefore the trajectory plays a much bigger role. Therefore the range estimation must be much more precise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Count me in the camp that has seen what I could swear was a bit of bracketing going on before seeing solid hits. Don't get me wrong, I've also seen plenty of first shoot hits with various results but I sure am not seeing anything I'd term 'robotic' or anything I'd confuse a modern MBT with. We need to keep in mind as others have said that we have one sample as of right now to draw conclusions from and while I wouldn't say it's down to knife fighting range these aren't what I'd call long term gunnery duels.

Those Marders btw are plenty effective as well. My first go I didn't lose a one and they did quite a number on the Shermans if you keep them in teams of two or three. One or two may miss but three of them working in a group on one target makes for lopsided fights. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feared there might be a problem of instant Spotting/Reaction with CM:BN, and agree with few of the posters above...

For me, the main problem is not the 'Hit Chance' per say ( as flight characteristics have been taken care of ), but rather the spotting and total reaction time for everything leading up for that possible shot, and BF may need to tweak it abit more.

For even Unbuttoned Armored or Field Piece crews, you still need to scan the battlefield, locate a target, and finally give orders to engage. This to me should take several seconds to accomplish, and longer if buttoned ( depending on crew quality, range, and other factors ).

We don't know how BF handles is spotting/reaction times, but some examples below could apply:

- Observer: If just stationary for the first minute, then use base line seconds to spot/react to target. Minus seconds off baseline if he is stationary for more then a minute.

- Target: if stationary then add to baseline seconds to spot, but if moving then minus.

- Target Cover: If stationary then add to baseline seconds, but if moving then minus.

- Crew quality ( plus or minus off baseline seconds to spot/react depending on quality ).

There may be several other items to consider, but this gives you a few examples to consider.

Also keep in mind, that its actually harder to hit something at close range that has just moved in your sights...A quick shot tends to take place over a timed shot.

Basically, spotting is the main point to consider and how the AI handles it...Firing the shot itself is the easier point.

In regards to CMx1...

Yes, in many cases the 'Hit Chance' does seem low as shots are generally taken even if there is only a 1-5% percent chance of a hit ( in RL, shots that are below a 10-25% would probably not be taken in the first place ). However, due to the fast spotting and borg spotting the results tends to be the same.

Joe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...