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Armor far too accurate...


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This thread reminds me of my pbem experiences as transferred to single-player. In pbem's it seems like all my shots miss and my enemy's are all first shot kills, in single-player it seems like in my games missing happens a lot while some here are posting the opposite. I will not be pbeming those of you who are reporting deadly accurate fire.

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This thread reminds me of my pbem experiences as transferred to single-player. In pbem's it seems like all my shots miss and my enemy's are all first shot kills, in single-player it seems like in my games missing happens a lot while some here are posting the opposite. I will not be pbeming those of you who are reporting deadly accurate fire.

Not saying this is the case with you, but in general this is great example why feelings and anecdotes will not be considered when it comes to complex simulation details like ballistics and terminal effects. Because of the level of complexity, there will be outliers, so anecdotes are seldom helpful in determining whether or not there is an underlying problem.

Then you add to that the fact that the player's subjective experience can effect their emotional investment in an outcome. Have you ever noticed that these anecdotes always involve the impossible shot the player's opponent made against them and caused them to lose the game, and never the awesome shot their own forces pulled off guaranteeing them victory. Of course, this effect is further amplified playing against human opponents.

The tests Steve alluded to above involved over 400 individual tanks, most taking multiple hits, so probably well over a thousand instances of an individual shot connecting with a individual tank in game. And this was to test one single aspect of terminal performance.

Here's my feeling on this subject: anecdotes and feelings should lead you to tests not conclusions. Tests need to be controlled, repeatable, and conducted in sufficient numbers to provide meaningful data. While you can't do this in the demo, the tools you need will be in the full game.

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Here's my feeling on this subject: anecdotes and feelings should lead you to tests not conclusions. Tests need to be controlled, repeatable, and conducted in sufficient numbers to provide meaningful data. While you can't do this in the demo, the tools you need will be in the full game.

+1

Things like this should, at most, lead a developer to "look into it" and check if everything is right. They should never lead to a developer blindly following what a couple of people say.

Also, maybe that guy is the gunner in the tanks:

tdzvy1305387294.jpg

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It seems to be more accurate than vehicles in CMSF to me. I was rushing tanks across open ground (pretty short mind you) and I got 2 of the 11 across ... I swear I've pulled off crazier moves than that even against Americana's in SF.

But the WW@ rush is a lot slower then even a red rush....

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While i also feel a bit "disturbed" about the first hit performance i came across another issue i always had with CMSF. I drove a Panther down the road knowing exactly the location of an enemy tank. I used the arc to narrow down the spotting to reduce and enhance the spotting time. When the panther came clear of some buildings the Panther and the M4 were about 80 meters apart. The M4 beeing directly on the 12 position with the turret trained exactly toward the enemy. It took about 45 seconds for the panther-crew to detect the enemy tank. While i can live with such a performance if the enemy tank is on the deep flank or in some kind of concealement i dont believe that any crew would take about 1 minute to identify an enemy tank sitting directly in front in a distance of 80 meters across a street.

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All I can add to this is that, in the tutorial scenario, I had a Sherman take out the AT gun over by the crossroads in about 5 shots, while the AT gun fired several shots at the tank, the closest of which bounced off the road wheels. I've also played another scenario at the command post and saw a mix of results - I can't really say I have enough information to go by yet to make generalizations from this, and other, limited observations with the demo.

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I'd say tank gunnery (including survivability) was the aspect of CM:BN that was hammered on more than anything else during testing. In fact, just last week we had a 300 post discussion about when crews should bail out based on damage sustained.

People have to remember that a good crew, decent LOS, should produce a hit first shot almost all the time when ranges are under 400m or so. Whether it is a Sherman 75 or a Panther, there should be an extremely small chance of a miss at such ranges. When you extend out from there things change dramatically.

We've done just about every test range scenario you can think of to double check where things are at. Are they perfect the way they are now? Eh... I hate that word so I'd say "no". Are there any significant problems with this stuff at the moment? No, I think we've proven that things are pretty damned good actually.

Steve

All I wanted to hear, thanks.

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I have been playing this demo and also "the other new East Front demo" that shall remain nameless.

Which other east front game is this?

Please don't let it remain nameless unless we're infringing forum rules by mentioning any other game company/product.

Usually I'm up to speed with new stuff coming out, but you've taken me by surprise.

I'm pretty sure it's not Achtung Panzer: Op. Star, because this seems to be dead.

Please do tell!

R

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Which other east front game is this?

Please don't let it remain nameless unless we're infringing forum rules by mentioning any other game company/product.

Usually I'm up to speed with new stuff coming out, but you've taken me by surprise.

I'm pretty sure it's not Achtung Panzer: Op. Star, because this seems to be dead.

Please do tell!

R

The wargamer site has all sorts of industry news releases if you click on their "news" link at the top menu; I sent them an email about CM:BfN demo but they have not updated it yet. I did manage to get CM:BfN demo news posted on tacticular cancer. ;)

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I appreciate this and agree that these guns can kill at these ranges. What I do find strange is the ability of the Panthers to be buttoned up but spot a target moving over 800 meters away from almost 90 degrees, immediately turn, fire 1 shot and hit the fast moving target. Once maybe, but to do it consistently just feels wrong and very CMSF like.

+1

Steve comments refer to under 400m.

But here I also had the same experience in the same scenario as some of you. Those Panthers are hitting everything with the 1st shot. In my particular case it was shermans on the move and over 800m away. 2 shots, 2 kills.

For me it may be a bit early to conclude anything but seen that a few others are having the same issue it may at least warrant a bit more of testing.

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+1

Steve comments refer to under 400m.

But here I also had the same experience in the same scenario as some of you. Those Panthers are hitting everything with the 1st shot. In my particular case it was shermans on the move and over 800m away. 2 shots, 2 kills.

For me it may be a bit early to conclude anything but seen that a few others are having the same issue it may at least warrant a bit more of testing.

Please keep in mind that the panther crews in this scenario are "veterans". Think the situation differs much if it is an unexperienced crew. But we will see when the game is released. also i dont know if it helps but i have posted a link in the first impressions sections about the accuracy of a tiger I tank in training and combat situations and this link states that the accuracy at up to 1000m is allmost 100 %.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm

For the panther tank: please keep in mind that a distance of 800 m is normally no problem for a tank like the panther at least for an experienced crew. these kind of tanks were designed to kill targets accurately at 2000m + as far as i know.

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siffo - the article you link to does not advise what the target is that the 100% hits are achieved against - I assume a stationary tank profile. This is then extrapolated to the 2nd round hit figure of 100% allowing for combat conditions. This seems generous.

So I would view the percentages as accurate on the firing range but not translating to this type of battlefield where there is a lot of ground variation and clutter. I am sure there are other percentages that can be found.

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Please keep in mind that the panther crews in this scenario are "veterans". Think the situation differs much if it is an unexperienced crew. But we will see when the game is released. also i dont know if it helps but i have posted a link in the first impressions sections about the accuracy of a tiger I tank in training and combat situations and this link states that the accuracy at up to 1000m is allmost 100 %.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm

For the panther tank: please keep in mind that a distance of 800 m is normally no problem for a tank like the panther at least for an experienced crew. these kind of tanks were designed to kill targets accurately at 2000m + as far as i know.

Again, let me start by saying I fully appreciate that Panthers can kill a Sherman at over 800 meters and I have absolutely no gripe about it. But heres my experience so far.

Playing as Germans on 'Closing the Gap'

Panthers sit on top of the German starting hill. Sherman hoves into view. Panther immediately engages and hits first time. It doesnt matter if the Panther is directly facing the Sherman or not. If it isnt, the Panther immediately slews through up to 90 degrees and fires a 1st Shot hit (in 90% of the engagements it also kills).

I have now played from the German side about 8 times and every time is the same, with exceptions below. As long as the Panther can see the middle of an enemy vehicle it hits it first time.

The exception to this seems to be hull down vehicles. In this case the Panther seems to miss low at about the point where the centre of the Sherman is. It will do this a couple of times and then finally hit.

Now, on the other hand, if I play the US side and hunt my M-10 into the trees they also get 1st shot hits at over 800 meters. Although they arent killing the Panthers (and I wouldnt really expect them to) but easily kill the Marders.

My conclusion is that something is wrong with the gunnery itself. Its either dialled up too far for crew experience or something else is affecting it. The range alone is cause for a raised eyebrow (only in the respect of immediate sighting and firing not the ability of the gun to kill), but when coupled with a moving target which is offset by a lot of degrees then it causes both my eyebrows to raise. Its not a game breaker or anything but it just feels wrong.

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Again, let me start by saying I fully appreciate that Panthers can kill a Sherman at over 800 meters and I have absolutely no gripe about it. But heres my experience so far.

Playing as Germans on 'Closing the Gap'

Panthers sit on top of the German starting hill. Sherman hoves into view. Panther immediately engages and hits first time. It doesnt matter if the Panther is directly facing the Sherman or not. If it isnt, the Panther immediately slews through up to 90 degrees and fires a 1st Shot hit (in 90% of the engagements it also kills).

I have now played from the German side about 8 times and every time is the same, with exceptions below. As long as the Panther can see the middle of an enemy vehicle it hits it first time.

The exception to this seems to be hull down vehicles. In this case the Panther seems to miss low at about the point where the centre of the Sherman is. It will do this a couple of times and then finally hit.

Now, on the other hand, if I play the US side and hunt my M-10 into the trees they also get 1st shot hits at over 800 meters. Although they arent killing the Panthers (and I wouldnt really expect them to) but easily kill the Marders.

My conclusion is that something is wrong with the gunnery itself. Its either dialled up too far for crew experience or something else is affecting it. The range alone is cause for a raised eyebrow (only in the respect of immediate sighting and firing not the ability of the gun to kill), but when coupled with a moving target which is offset by a lot of degrees then it causes both my eyebrows to raise. Its not a game breaker or anything but it just feels wrong.

Vehicles on the move also seem too accurate to me, even at short ranges. A panther was moving perpendicular to 2 M10s at 400m. While travelling at fast speed it tracked and first round hit my M10s. I've seen instances such as this several times actually. And the game feels nothing like CMx1 when it comes to tank combat. Vehicles are that accurate. It feels a bit like CMSF actually. Was CMx1 so far off the mark or are these vehicles simply shooting and acquiring too well?

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Personally, I'm willing to concede that BF have done good work on the accuracy - what I find strange is that a ( buttoned, mind you ) Panther moving Fast can spot, turn turret 45 degrees shoot and insta-hit-kill a Sherman without slowing down.

That seems robotic CMSF type accuracy.

Edit: Ha, co-post with Gryphonne on exactly the same thing.

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siffo - the article you link to does not advise what the target is that the 100% hits are achieved against - I assume a stationary tank profile. This is then extrapolated to the 2nd round hit figure of 100% allowing for combat conditions. This seems generous.

yeah you might be right and it might be a bit generous but i have found another source related directly to the panthers accuracy and it essentially states the same thing:

, Panther was able to destroy any enemy tank in existence at ranges of 2000m, while in general veteran Panther crews reported 90 percent hit rate at ranges up to 1000m. According to US Army Ground Forces statistics, destruction of a single Panther was achieved after destruction of 5 M4 Shermans or some 9 T-34s.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-v-panther-sd-kfz-171.htm#panther

@GSX: i cannot see the problem why a tank shoulnd be able to: spot a enemy target at 800m (even if the tank isnt facing the target) and instantly slew in the target direction and start fire. at least if the commander looks out of the turret. its a matter of 2-3 seconds: commander spots the enemy with his binoculars, gives the location to the gunner, the gunner aims at the target and fires...

i have experienced that like in cm1 the spotting for a tank is much easier if the commander looks out of the turret.

I expierienced one situation in the demo when my panther was moving towards the village and the commander was inside the turret. A sherman opened fire at the panther and hit the panther about 3 times. The panther could not return fire because he did not see the enemy tank. I replayed the situation with the commander looking out of the turret and after one shot of the sherman my tank immediately located the enemy tank in a treeline and opened fire. seems plausible to me... because of the limited vision ability for the commander from inside the tank also the optics of my tank were a bit damaged.

but who knows maybe really something is wrong with the gunnery itself. We can test it as soon as the game is released. :)

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All I can add to this is that, in the tutorial scenario, I had a Sherman take out the AT gun over by the crossroads in about 5 shots, while the AT gun fired several shots at the tank, the closest of which bounced off the road wheels. I've also played another scenario at the command post and saw a mix of results - I can't really say I have enough information to go by yet to make generalizations from this, and other, limited observations with the demo.

Not picking on you, but this is a good example of confusing terminal effects and accuracy. If the ATG hit the roadwheels, well, it "hit" the Sherman. If we're discussing accuracy, then we need to ignore the terminal effects.

Spotting is different behavior, as well. Tanks with cupolas have an advantage over tanks without them (when buttoned up). At least, they should. ;)

Spotting ability, reaction time, accuracy (of first shot, follow-on shots, etc.), terminal effects, are ALL separate items. If something "feels" wrong, try to isolate which aspect you think it is. Then, strip out all the other variables you can. Post about it.

Without rehashing many, many pages of older threads in different forums, the single biggest factor affecting accuracy - with any weapon - is muzzle velocity. The faster the round, the less effect range estimation errors have.

There is also discussion about the on-the-move accuracy.

So, before comparing two different sets of hits/misses, think about the differences. Are the tanks the same? Does one have a low velocity gun? Crew experience? Gyrostabilizer? First shot or follow-on? Under fire? Moving? Etc., etc.

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Which other east front game is this?

Please don't let it remain nameless unless we're infringing forum rules by mentioning any other game company/product.

Usually I'm up to speed with new stuff coming out, but you've taken me by surprise.

I'm pretty sure it's not Achtung Panzer: Op. Star, because this seems to be dead.

Please do tell!

R

Panzer Command: Ostfront

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Without rehashing many, many pages of older threads in different forums, the single biggest factor affecting accuracy - with any weapon - is muzzle velocity. The faster the round, the less effect range estimation errors have.

I do not think anyone is questionning or complaining about those factors.

Maybe it has not been put clearly enough but what is clear to me is that whatever the armour accuracy model built into CM:BN is it appears overall (to some of us at least) to be much more efficient than what CMx1 yielded. As mentioned, we probably do not have enough of a trend to warrant a full on revision or trigger any alarms just yet. It may very well be that it was the old model which was dragging down accuracy...

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I'm not trying to downplay any of these observations. I'm only trying to show that we need to be very specific when trying to compare different anecdotes.

Within around 400m, should ANY stationary tank - not suppressed or otherwise under poor morale - miss a tank-sized object? How does the game work under those conditions? How should experience ratings change the accuracy?

The demo doesn't give enough tools to test it out. Hopefully the release will come very soon and allow everyone to put this issue through the wringer. :)

Yeah, shooting on the move is a sore spot. The Sherman gyro was NOT that good (even when it was working), and anyone who's ever bounced around a tracked vehicle knows it's impossible to keep a magnified scope on a target while the vehicle is moving. I'm not sure what the solution (if any) will be for that. What are your thoughts?

- Totally disallow ANY firing when moving?

- Selectively disallow firing on the move, dependent on one or more factors such as range, weapon type, target size, angular motion, speed?

- Force the moving vehicle to stop and fire whenever it sees a target while it's moving?

- Selectively stop the moving vehicle to stop and fire when it sees a target? What would be the parameters? (Imagine giving a FAST order to a Sherman to dart across a small opening but instead it stops so it can trade shots with a Tiger? I can hear the howls of distress!)

Ken

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Originally Posted by GSX

I appreciate this and agree that these guns can kill at these ranges. What I do find strange is the ability of the Panthers to be buttoned up but spot a target moving over 800 meters away from almost 90 degrees, immediately turn, fire 1 shot and hit the fast moving target. Once maybe, but to do it consistently just feels wrong and very CMSF like.

^^^THIS^^^

I would love to see more "reaction time" in the spotting of targets not in front of the tank and then for the tank commander to communicate this info to the crew. Even 2 or 3 seconds would be better. Right now it feels robotic.

For me this is still an issue.

The use of the phrase "Right now it feels robotic." should be hi-lited and emphasized. IMHO ;)

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