SS - supermen or just mama's boys with lots of toys?

[sburke]

Seeing as we have at least a week to kill and we already beat to death the subject of allies versus axis capability - time to take on those wunderkind.

Were they really such a big deal or did preferential access to men and material simply waste resources for the Wehrmacht?

Personally I think their elite status is much overblown, yes they were fanatical and yeah they had the best toys of the lot (Aside from GrossDeutschland and a few others) and better access to replacements, but given all the resources thrown their way, my personal (usually flawed) opinion is Germany got less out of the bargain than if they had incorporated those resources into the Wehrmacht.

Okay flame away.

[Michael Emrys]

I agree and my impression is that the bulk of serious historians who have an opinion on the subject do too. SS formations tended to have very uneven performance in battle. Some became good enough, others never did. Those formations comprised entirely of German nationals generally performed better than those composed of foreign "volunteers". The Waffen SS when it improved, often did so following a generous infusion of officers and NCOs from the Heer.

Michael

[Magpie_Oz]

Were they really such a big deal or did preferential access to men and material simply waste resources for the Wehrmacht?

I don't know that they did have access to the best men and material.

The men for certain were chosen for their political steadfastness and devotion to the National Socialist cause, so in theory a really good soldier could be dismissed as he didn't " Heil " with sufficient gusto. They were also a bit of a disparate bunch as they came from many different countries so as noted consistency would be variable.

As for their stuff, they were supplied through the Wehrmacht so not sure that they necessarily got the good gear before everyone else.

They did however seem perform either really well or really badly either way they took horrendous losses.

So for my mind the difference between the SS and the regular army was simply one of morale and motivation, which is often a huge factor.

[sonar]

Tacticaly, didn't they have a lot of catching up to do with the Wermacht, due their gradual expansion from bodguard unit to corps and armies.

I think that knowing their infamy was a virtual death sentence, must have led in no small part to their reputation in defensive fighting and holding out type situations, but there were some first class divisions within the SS were there not.

[MikeyD]

They were instructed, I believe, to be ruthless and merciless. It was actually part of standard warfighing doctrine. Men, women, children, it was all the same to them. The intent was to terrify the population into submission. Their bloodthirsty reputation preceeded them into battle and did half their work for them in many cases. Of course it also backfired. One reason Heer wasn't often seen in camou smocks was because they did not want to be mistaken for SS in the field. A British Tommy might be inclined take a regular infantry soldier prisoner.

[DLaurier]

The SS were neither supermen nor mommas boys.

They were fools, led by a promise of glory.

They believed the lies they were fed.

Like many conquering empires before and since, the German third reich claimed that a god was on their side.

The SS were the faithfull believers who bought it all, hook-line-and-sinker.

Much of their reputation was German propaganda... Some was lucky victorys and idiotic atrocitys... The rest was allied propaganda.

Most people today tend to obey authority figures, and 1930s era Germans were no different. The men of the SS were obeying orders.

They believed the propaganda lies they were fed, and followed leaders who lied to them.

[Dietrich]

their infamy was a virtual death sentence

One reason Heer wasn't often seen in camou smocks was because they did not want to be mistaken for SS in the field. A British Tommy might be inclined take a regular infantry soldier prisoner.

The Osprey Publishing title Panzer Crewman (1939-1945) by Gordon Williamson cites an ironic incident:

Whilst Allied intelligence were fully aware of the range of uniforms and insignia worn by Panzer crews, many Allied front-line combat servicemen saw a black uniform and death's-head collar patches, and assumed the wearer was a member of the SS.

One former Waffen-SS soldier from Silesia provided the author of this book with a clear illustration of the perils of wearing the black uniform. He described how he was captured in Normandy wearing a new field grey tuniche had obtained to replace his existing tattered one. No insignia had yet been added to the new tunic. He was held prisoner in an old farmhouse with several other captured Germans, including some seriously wounded Panzer crewmen in black uniforms. Some time later, free Polish troops entered the farmhouse. Because of his Silesian dialect and the lack of insignia, he was able to pass himself off as an ethnic Pole forced to serve with the Germans. The Poles, who tried to encourage him to join the Free Polish Army, thus treated him very well. They then went into the next room, spotted the wounded Panzer crewmen in their black uniforms, took them for SS and shot them on the spot. So innocent army tankers had been shot whilst a member of the SS the Poles hated so much was treated like a long-lost brother.

[sonar]

Can't put their reputation all down to propaganda, luck and atrocity, much more complex and subtle, what makes any formation an elite unit is the psyhcology of those who are part of that organisation [the SAS are not seven foot giants} and with the SS you have the extra layers of politcal and racial ideology to contend with also.

[Sgt Schultz]

Set Fanaticism to 50% or higher and you get an SS formation.

Green or Veteran, they will will perform just as poorly or well, just with more gusto and less breaking.

They may wander off and get slaughtered, but they will do so with PRIDE and the secure knowledge of the Final Victory.

[sburke]

c'mon guys. no name calling, no flip responses or heated disagreements. How the heck are we gonna pass a week with this kind of gentlemanly limp reaction?

regarding responses, I didn't say necessarily the best men just that their unit strength was generally kept up with healthy replacements. The fact that they also looked to the occupied countries for troops for sure would introduce a level of inconsistency as well though - good point. Wait I mean "what the heck. Are you kidding me, who cares what language the tall blonde guy speaks, he's still tall and blonde!!".

As to equipment, I believe only a handful of divisions in the Wehrmacht got anywhere near the front of the line for equipment replacements like the SS. Probably better to look at the eastern front as all the panzer units on the Western front were gutted in Normandy and rebuilt for Wacht am Rhein. Overall I think the western front would not have the same level of disparity as the eastern front.

[Other Means]

It's fair to say that staying in your foxhole and shooting your Mauser at a Sherman is often the sub-optimal response to that specific tactical situation.

[Erwin]

That may be true DL, but from the masses of docs I have watched on the "Hitler" Channel, they were specially selected and trained in the 30's and at war's start. They got a reputation for being willing to take high casualties, to be especially ruthlessness and most importantly very high esprit de corps compared to the Wehrmacht - kinda like the Marines vs the Army. The SS got the job done when the Wehrmacht hesitated.

As the war progressed and casualties mounted the SS were forced to take more and more "unter supermen" type men - including those with some Jewish blood, a Moslem unit etc.

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/muf-han.html

Their special use was that IIRC the Wermacht could only recruit from German citizenry while the SS could recruit from other nationalities - thus filling out the numbers. But, of course aside from a few elite units the overall SS quality declined from the early war days. The Hitler Youth Div was pretty tough (which shows why it's best to use children to fight our wars).

There were equally elite Wermacht units: Panzer Lehr, GrossDeutchland etc.

[JonS]

For a long time the SS were equipped with captured foreign kit that the Army didn't want despite being desperately short of materiel themselves. That kinda puts the lie to the hostess with the mostess meme.

Proportionately, quite a few of the SS divisions were Pz or PzGren. Like, maybe 33%? Compare that to the army were it was down around 10%. But as far as the Western Allies were concerned, every SS division they encountered in Italy and Normandy and France and BeNeLux and Germany (well, except for 6th SS Mtn, but that was late in the campaign) was either a Pz or PzGren div, which would tend to give a distorted view. The Western Allies didn't come across the hopelessly incompetent muppets like the Florian Geyer, Handschar, or Lützow divisions.

[DLaurier]

It's fair to say that staying in your foxhole and shooting your Mauser at a Sherman is often the sub-optimal response to that specific tactical situation.

True. But people are stupid.

[sburke]

It's fair to say that staying in your foxhole and shooting your Mauser at a Sherman is often the sub-optimal response to that specific tactical situation.

well when he looked at the UI, it didn't say he couldn't take out the Sherman.

I'm kidding guys, just kidding!!!

[LJFHutch]

well when he looked at the UI, it didn't say he couldn't take out the Sherman.

They don't teach you that at basic?

[Sgt Schultz]

Certain Formations did very well, even polyglot ones such as "Nordland". Some sucked and were eaten whole in a few engagements.

The SS had some units that were graced by a confluence of military circumstances that, when coupled with the death squads' actions, may have created a feedback of perceived ability from both within the formations and without.

Training, equipment, veteran personnel injected at opportune times, battle experience under favorable conditions... all variables that are shared by any formation in any army.

Convince troops they are elite and they will work to prove they are.

The better formations tended to be the older ones.

At the lowest common denominator... You put a trooper that spent a year in Russia up against a green American who doesn't even know his new squad leader, and well....

Command level ... uneven, but some of the fascists weren't totally without skill. No Rommel or Raus in that bullpen, but some knew how to put the lessons to use.

Flip didnt mean it wasn't true.

The deciding factor was most likely fanatacism, and perception of the effects of that fanatacism upon both the enemy and the formations themselves... in addition to the reputation of what were basically non-combat units commiting atrocities with SS shoulder tabs.

Even the ones that sucked sucked with pride(we are SS so we MUST be the best). They were too hide-bound to change and the commanders were too loyal to replace.

The brutally Darwinian process of modern warfare did not allow enough time for some formations to learn.

----

Edit - In CM terms, SS means nothing beyond uniform and TO&E tweaks, because we ain't scared of 'em no mo'. Unless ... like I posted before ... they tend to be more fanatical.

[user38]

Why has no one here mentioned the tactial benefits conferred on the SS by their really cool uniforms?

[Narsus]

From Wikipedia, Battle of Kharkov

"Although the Germans were also understrength, the Wehrmacht successfully flanked, encircled and defeated the Red Army's armored spearheads south of Kharkov. This enabled von Manstein to renew his offensive against the city of Kharkov proper, which began on 7 March. Despite orders to encircle Kharkov from the north, the SS Panzer Corps instead decided to directly engage Kharkov on 11 March. This led to four days of house-to-house fighting before Kharkov was finally recaptured by the 1st SS Panzer ("Leibstandarte") Division on 15 March. Two days later, the Germans also recaptured Belgorod, creating the salient which in July 1943 would lead to the Battle of Kursk. The German offensive cost the Red Army an estimated 70,000 casualties but the house-to-house fighting in Kharkov was also particularly bloody for the German SS Panzer Corps, which had lost approximately 4,300 men by the time operations ended in late March."

I remember having a great documentary series on the eastern front, there was footage from the counter attack at Karkov showing the fresh and fit SS units with their brand new halftracks, hoods draped with the Nazi flag and they just had this look that they were ready to fight.

[Sivodsi]

Why has no one here mentioned the tactial benefits conferred on the SS by their really cool uniforms?

Yes, they have. It was apparently the benefit of being shot first.

[para]

Is there anyone here who wouldn't want to stomp around in one of their cool informs? Darth Vader loves em.

[zukkov]

when i think of ss fanatacism, i think of the scene in "a bridge too far" when the germans came across the bridge and were quickly tore up by the waiting british. at the very end, a soldier jumps out of his vehicle and charges towards the british. heh, very brave but stupid...

[LongLeftFlank]

SS performance, as with the Wehrmacht, varied with the phase of the war.

The (in)famous Castle system produced excellent junior SS officers and NCOs in mid-war but these cadres were largely consumed, together with the best of the pre-1943 Wehrmacht, in Russia 1943-44. The survivors (veterans) found themselves commanding increasingly young though enthusiastic personnel, and these were the formations which fought in Normandy. From there, they simply drew on younger and younger kids -- Allied soldiers were often nauseated having to slaughter them in heaps in the Bulge and elsewhere -- an increasingly frequent event as their training failed to match their fanaticism..

As to generalship, Wehrmacht transferee Kurt Hausser was one of the better German panzer generals.

[LongLeftFlank]

Is there anyone here who wouldn't want to stomp around in one of their cool informs? Darth Vader loves em.

On the final (third) night of my bachelor party in Manhattan, a friend called a friend ("Eddie -- he's in the porn business"). Long story short, we ended up in a BDSM club off Delancey. Turns out black tie and Churchill cigars are perfectly appropriate attire in such an establishment. My memory is patchy, but I do have a riding crop as a memento, slightly used. Oh, and I distinctly remember the big screens looping SS and DKM newsreel footage.

[JonS]

Long story short, we ended up in a BDSM club off Delancey.

So tedious when that happens.