Osama Bin Ladin Has Been Killed

[noxnoctum]

Wonder how the guy who made it feels . Personally I woulda aimed for the crotch but that's just me, and I have no military training beyond paintball .

[dieseltaylor]

For years US intelligence had been unable to name the courier. But four years ago they worked out who he was and two years later they discovered where he operated.It was only in August 2010 that they located him in Abbottabad, Pakistan.

The order to carry out the mission was finally given by President Obama last Friday, after he had held five National Security Council meetings in March and April.

After the US attack Pakistani troops arrived at the scene and secured the area.

BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13257330

Rush job then Affy? Or possibly I am correct and it was arranged in agreement woth trustworthy Allies who might be expected to be at risk from a dramatic AQ response ....oops could that be the UK?

: )

[Moosegum]

Obama's original announcement.

"He's dead".

LOL!

Good one!

[Magpie_Oz]

We have this thing, called the rule of law. You may have heard of it. It works quite well. I suggest you look into it.

100% with JonS on this one. Having a "hit team" assassinate some one, who ever they may be, is not a way forward out of the eye for an eye loop.

Having said that it appears that a genuine attempt was made to capture Bin Laden with, presumably, the goal being to have him face an international court.

It didn't pan out that way and another person has died. I don't see that anything other than petty revenge has been achieved.

[abneo3sierra]

Magpie..that may be on the surface correct...but in the end, the entire concept of law, in a "criminal law" type of setting at least, IS "petty revenge"..you send someone to prison for killing someone..doesn't bring back the victim..you send them to prison for stealing..90%+ of the time, the victim cannot recover what was stolen,etc..the entire idea is to give the victim revenge,despite that society wraps it as "taking the criminal off the street"etc..which, it also does.

[womble]

Not sure the Americans could legitimately put ObL in front of the ICC, since the US doesn't recognise the court's jurisdiction over US citizens.

The killing wasn't terrorism, since ObL was an officer in an organisation that has declared war (however asymmetrical) on the US and the shooting was by uniformed US personnel. Similarly, it wasn't an 'extra-legal execution', since he was attempting to fight back. IANAL.

[Magpie_Oz]

Magpie..that may be on the surface correct...but in the end, the entire concept of law, in a "criminal law" type of setting at least, IS "petty revenge"..you send someone to prison for killing someone..doesn't bring back the victim..you send them to prison for stealing..90%+ of the time, the victim cannot recover what was stolen,etc..the entire idea is to give the victim revenge,despite that society wraps it as "taking the criminal off the street"etc..which, it also does.

No rule of law is not petty revenge or any other form of revenge. It is punishment and rehabilitation.

[dieseltaylor]

Rule of law?

Rule of law is what happens in society where people play by the rules which they themselves or their ancestors have set.

Extending ones views to a larger arena where no consensus has been agree is daft - pretty much. That many governments may have subscribed to some general laws favoured by the "civilised" nations works if it is a formal war. However perhaps the great and could should realise that some nations and some groups are quite happy to operate outside of the law.

Now we talk about what would be nice, or what would be correct, but that is just baloney, hot air, bull****. People who operate outside the law do not get the protection of those laws. And until it is realised that fannying about actually causes more problems than it solves , in some cases, people will suffer. Witness the Somali pirates and their prisoners.

Somali pirates have captured hundreds of ships and thousands of crew members over the years — right now they have 660 hostages and some 30 vessels. But virtually all the hostages would be released unharmed after pirates negotiated multimillion-dollar ransoms for them and their ships.

Mar 2011

[Magpie_Oz]

Rule of law?

Rule of law is what happens in society where people play by the rules which they themselves or their ancestors have set.

So why do we have police and prisons?

Now we talk about what would be nice, or what would be correct, but that is just baloney, hot air, bull****. People who operate outside the law do not get the protection of those laws.

That is just silly to suggest if you break the law you are no longer protected by it. Should people should be executed for stealing?

And until it is realised that fannying about actually causes more problems than it solves

Name one instance where "fannying about" or perhaps you mean taking a civilised approach to a problem has caused more problems that it solved?

I am not talking about political correctness or pandering to the terrorists I am simply looking for a solution that works because the current thinking is not really getting us anywhere.

[dieseltaylor]

Doh!

So why do we have police and prisons?

To help people remember that there is punishment if they break their society's laws

That is just silly to suggest if you break the law you are no longer protected by it. Should people should be executed for stealing?

Perhaps you should have quoted the full part of the paragraph about extending laws outside of society so it made sense. I am making a distinction between laws that operate with the consent of society inside a country and those which are foisted on countries in the international arena.

I think this is an important distinction to make. Within a society ech individual has a place, and probably family and associates so there is a degree of peer pressure to reinforce the norm.

In the international setting it is purely a vicious "war" to get the most for your country/group and all the nice cosy ideas that fit so well at home just seem stupid. For kick-off the death penalty. Dear Adolf you have done wrong go to prison. I do not think the general population would have been in favour of life imprisonment - with suitable visiting rights. But that is what is being touted around as justice and humaneness.

Name one instance where "fannying about" or perhaps you mean taking a civilised approach to a problem has caused more problems that it solved?

I almost imagine you did not read what I writ : ) Somalian pirates. Our civilised hands off approach has lead to a bigger problem growimg over the last decade.

Monday, 02 May 2011 11:00 There have been five attempted hijackings this last week in the Indian Ocean, according to the International Maritime Bureau (IMB). In total, Somali pirates have made 117 attempts to hijack ships this year, succeeding in 20 cases. In the process they have taken 338 hostages, the IMB reports.

The most recent hijacking too place on April 21 when the bulk carrier MV Rosalia d’Amato was captured by pirates roughly 350 nautical miles south east of Salalah, Oman. The 74,500 tonne Italian flagged and owned vessel was on its way to Bandar Imam Khomeini (Iran) from Paranagua (Brazil) when it was attacked by a single skiff, The European Union Naval Force reports. Coalition warships had communications with the vessel and were told: ‘pirates onboard stay away’. The MV Rosalia d’Amato has a crew of 21, comprising six Italians and 15 Filipinos.

Somali pirates have released a couple of vessels in the last week. The MV Renuar was released from pirate control last Saturday, the European Union Naval Force (EU Navfor) said in a statement. The Liberian owned, Panama flagged ship was captured on December 11 last year whilst sailing about 550 nautical miles off the cost of India. She was sailing from Port Louis in Mauritius to Fujairah in the United Arab Emirates and is now in a safe port. The EU Navfor did not say if a ransom had been paid.

On Sunday Somali pirates said they freed the Greek-owned, Cyprus-flagged MV Eagle they seized in January. The MV Eagle, a 52,163 deadweight tonne merchant vessel and its crew of 24 Filipinos was seized in January about 500 miles south-west of Oman, while it was en route to India from Jordan.

Pirates said they received a US$6 million ransom for the ship's release. "We have received our $6 million .... The ship has just started to sail away from our zone with a warship," a pirate who gave his name as Kalif told Reuters by phone from the coastal town of El-Dhanane.

Ecoterra, an advocacy group monitoring piracy in the Indian Ocean, confirmed a ransom was paid. "After having received a hefty ransom for the old bulk carrier, Somali buccaneers released the Greek-owned and Cypriot-flagged MV Eagle. Vessel and crew made their way to safe waters," it said in a statement.

Separately, Somali government officials said they were caring for 14 Iranian sailors who were released after a botched naval rescue earlier in the week in which three pirates and one Iranian seaman died. It is yet to be determined which nation's navy carried out the rescue attempt, as well as what vessel was involved. Pirates are holding around 11 Iranian fishing vessels, according to information from Ecoterra.

"We have 14 Iranian crew in Galkaayo and we want to hand them over to Iran," Ahmed Mohamed Basto, the spokesman of Galmudug state, a regional administration in central Somalia recognised by the Transitional Federal Government. "We are contacting Iranian embassies so that they go with them."

Pirate gangs are making tens of millions of dollars in ransoms. Despite successful efforts to quell attacks in the Gulf of Aden, international navies have struggled to contain piracy in the Indian Ocean owing to the vast distances involved.

The economic cost of piracy has been estimated at US$7 billion to US$12 billion per year, with shippers facing rising insurance costs that threaten to raise commodity prices.

According to the EU Navfor, there are at least 30 ships still being held by Somali pirates, plus an unknown number of Dhows and smaller vessels, together with more than 500 hostages:

* SOCOTRA 1: Seized on December 25, 2009 in the Gulf of Aden. Yemeni-owned ship had six Yemeni crew.

* ICEBERG 1: Seized on March 29, 2010. Roll-on roll-off vessel captured 10 miles from Aden. Crew of 24.

* JIH-CHUN TSAI 68: Taiwanese fishing vessel seized on March 30. Crew of 14: Taiwanese captain, two Chinese and 11 Indonesians.

* Three Thai fishing vessels -- PRANTALAY 11, 12 and 14 -- hijacked on April 17-18. Total of 77 crew.

* SUEZ: Seized on August 2. Panama-flagged cargo ship hijacked in the Gulf of Aden. Carrying cement. Crew of 23 all from Egypt, 1akistan, Sri Lanka and India.

* OLIB G: Seized on September 8. Maltese-flagged merchant vessel with 18 crew -- 15 Georgians, three Turks.

* CHOIZIL: Seized on October 26. South-African-owned yacht was hijacked after leaving Dar es Salaam. European Union anti-piracy task force rescued one South African but two other crew members were taken ashore and held as hostages.

* POLAR: Seized on Oct 30: Liberian-owned Panama-flagged 72,825-tonne tanker seized 580 miles east of Socotra. Crew of 24 -- one Romanian, three Greeks, four Montenegrins, 16 Filipinos.

* YUAN XIANG: Seized on November 12. Chinese-owned cargo ship captured off Oman. Crew of 29 Chinese.

* ALBEDO: Seized on November 26. Malaysian-owned cargo vessel was taken 900 miles off Somalia as it headed for Mombasa from UAE. Crew of 23 from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Iran.

* PANAMA: Seized on December 10: Liberian-flagged container ship en route from Tanzania to Beira. Crew of 23 from Myanmar.

* ORNA: Seized on December 20: The Panama-flagged bulk cargo vessel, 27,915 dwt, owned by the United Arab Emirates, was seized 400 miles northeast of the Seychelles.

* SHIUH FU NO 1: Seized December 25: Somali pirates appeared to have seized the Taiwanese-owned fishing vessel near the northeast tip of Madagascar in the Indian Ocean. The vessel had a crew of 26 Taiwanese, Chinese and Vietnamese nationals.

* VEGA 5: Seized before December 31: Somali pirates hijacked the 140 dwt Mozambican-flagged fishing vessel about 200 miles southwest of the Comoros. There were two Spaniards, three Indonesians and 19 Mozambicans on board.

* BLIDA: Seized on January 1, 2011: The 20,586-tonne Algerian-flagged bulk carrier was seized about 150 miles southeast of Salalah, Oman. The ship, with 27 crew from Algeria, Ukraine and the Philippines, was heading to Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, from Salalah with a cargo of clinker.

* HOANG SON SUN: Seized on January 19: The 22,835-tonne bulk carrier, which is Mongolian flagged and Vietnamese-owned and had a crew of 24 Vietnamese nationals, was seized about 520 nautical miles southeast of the port of Muscat.

* SAVINA CAYLYN: Seized on February 8: The 104,255-dwt tanker, Italian-flagged and owned, was on passage to Malaysia from Sudan when it was attacked 670 miles east of Socotra Island. It had five Italians and 17 Indians on board.

* SININ: Seized on February 12: The Maltese owned and registered bulk carrier was seized with a crew of 13 Iranian and 10 Indian nationals in the North Arabian Sea. The 53,000 dwt vessel was on route to Singapore from Fujairah in the United Arab Emirates.

* ALFARDOUS: Seized on February 13: The Yemeni fishing vessel was believed to have been pirated close to Socotra Island in the Gulf of Aden and has a crew of eight.

* DOVER: Seized on February 28: It was taken about 260 nautical miles north east of Salalah in Oman. The Panamanian flagged, Greek owned vessel was on its way to Saleef (Yemen) from Port Quasim (Pakistan) when it was attacked. The crew consists of three Romanians, one Russian and 19 Filipinos.

* SINAR KINDUS: Seized on March 16: The Indonesian flagged and owned bulk cargo carrier was pirated approximately 320 miles North East of Socotra in the Somali Basin. The ship, which carried a crew of 20, was quickly used to launch further attacks.

* ZIRKU: Seized on March 28: The UAE-flagged and Kuwaiti-owned oil tanker, bound for Singapore from Sudan, was pirated approximately 250 nautical miles South East of Salalah in the eastern part of the Gulf of Aden. The 105,846 dwt tanker carried a 29-strong crew including one Croatian, 17 Pakistanis, one Iraqi, one Filipino, one Indian, three Jordanians, three Egyptians and two Ukrainians.

* SUSAN K: Seized on April 8: The German-owned, Antigua and Barbuda-flagged vessel was travelling to Port Sudan from Mumbai in India when it was pirated 200 nautical miles northeast of Salalah, Oman. The 4,450 dwt vessel carried a crew of 10 from Ukraine and the Philippines.

* ROSALIA D'AMATO: Seized on April 21: The Italian-owned bulk carrier was captured 350 miles off the coast of Oman. The 74,500 tone bulk carrier was on its way to Bandar Imam Khomeini in Iran from Brazil with a cargo of soya. The crew consisted of six Italians and 15 Filipinos.

Source: DefenceWeb

[McAuliffe]

But Piracy is big business for a lot of companies as well. P&I clubs asking excessive insurance premiums. Security companies selling all kind of equipments to be fit aboard ranging from barbed wire to sonic bombs. Contractors putting armed guards on vessels as soon as they pass Columbo or Jemen. You can earn USD 10'000 per day if you're a candidate to travel to Somalia and hand over the ransom and finally, the national governments have some reason to put their expensive navy at use and can offer their fleet for convoy service at rather low risk.

[Michael Emrys]

The TRIAL was the right thing to do.

You are assuming that he would have gone peacefully into captivity. Is there any evidence for that?

Michael

[Soldat-Hans]

Hey People Here is a nice Link from the Original faked Photo from dead OBL:"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-N5qE3MvVkWg/Tb8PSyDr4bI/AAAAAAAAG9E/lQemmKiDoks/s1600/OBLFake.JPG

-

to all people:" Osama Bin Laden is dead since December 16. 2001

He died because of Renal failure. Osama Bin Laden got Dialysis by the US. He needed 3 Dialysis per week. After Septer 11th, he Dialysis was stopped, because he became toilette Paper by US. Sorry guys! You should have made Party ten years ago! Everything in TV, Radio and so on has a name! Its named Propaganda.

Here a Link from the Pakistani newspaper, which Wrote it:"

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MAIDScDNy6I/Rlbdvo-i5vI/AAAAAAAAARs/whaOcO1kNF0/s1600-h/al-wafd.jpg

[Affentitten]

I guess it would have been nice to see him brought to trial and dismantled in the dock. But he could have sat there the whole time and looked dignified and mystical while the yapping dogs of the West tried to bring him down.

At least we've saved ourselves 15 years of Johnny Cochran 2.0

[Stalins Organ]

The killing wasn't terrorism, since ObL was an officer in an organisation that has declared war (however asymmetrical) on the US

i'm pretty sure that rule only applies to states, not any bunch of nutters who wants to get organised.

and the shooting was by uniformed US personnel. Similarly, it wasn't an 'extra-legal execution', since he was attempting to fight back. IANAL.

ther seems to be some discussion about that now- with the white house reporting he was unarmed but resisting??

[Magpie_Oz]

For kick-off the death penalty. Dear Adolf you have done wrong go to prison. I do not think the general population would have been in favour of life imprisonment - with suitable visiting rights. But that is what is being touted around as justice and humaneness.

So killing should be answered with killing?

They kill and cheer in the streets then we kill and cheer in the streets, I was saddened the other night by the scenes of jubilation in America mainly because it looked just like down town Baghdad with different hair styles.

You do not defeat your enemy by becoming your enemy in fact you hand them victory.

I almost imagine you did not read what I writ : ) Somalian pirates. Our civilised hands off approach has lead to a bigger problem growimg over the last decade.

I did read what you wrote and the Somali Pirate situation is a prime example of where might is not working. Large numbers of the world's navies are engaged in the region in an attempt to provide security which, as you listed, is not very successful.

The riches (booty?) that can be had by the pirates far outweigh any risks they might expose themselves to.

So shooting them is never going to be the solution unless you intend to kill them all.

What needs to happen is to take away the motivation to commit piracy and you can only do that by placing them in a situation where they have more to lose than gain from piracy. That involves giving them stability.

Killing is easy, pick up a gun and boom it's done.

Actually solving the problem is hard.

[abneo3sierra]

So killing should be answered with killing?

They kill and cheer in the streets then we kill and cheer in the streets, I was saddened the other night by the scenes of jubilation in America mainly because it looked just like down town Baghdad with different hair styles.

You do not defeat your enemy by becoming your enemy in fact you hand them victory.

I did read what you wrote and the Somali Pirate situation is a prime example of where might is not working. Large numbers of the world's navies are engaged in the region in an attempt to provide security which, as you listed, is not very successful.

The riches (booty?) that can be had by the pirates far outweigh any risks they might expose themselves to.

So shooting them is never going to be the solution unless you intend to kill them all.

What needs to happen is to take away the motivation to commit piracy and you can only do that by placing them in a situation where they have more to lose than gain from piracy. That involves giving them stability.

Killing is easy, pick up a gun and boom it's done.

Actually solving the problem is hard.

The difference(and it is a HUGE one) is that the Palestinians cheered the loss of 3000+ INNOCENT lives, while the Americans cheered the loss of the worst murderer in recent history.

As to the piracy question..yes,large naval forces are deployed, but with the order not to shoot the pirates in most cases..which is a waste of naval resources.

Your conclusion,though, I agree with....solving the problem requires more..but I do not believe it to be an "either/or" choice..I believe punishment of the bad is perfectly in agreement with the peaceful solving of the causes of the problem.

[costard]

Most of the problem associated with building a legal system is based around the idea of limiting the abuse of power. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely - the end result is the demise of the legal system and its associated societal structures: economic infrastructure, relationships built on trust, the synergy of a functional and directed group of people. The discipline required to exercise power whilst understanding the second and third order effects of that exercise requires a familiarity with history and the demonstrated second, etc. order effects, also the the humility to value other lives as somewhat equivalent with our own. It requires a level of intellectual capability that is beyond the majority of the populace, something recognised and dealt with in the formation of hierarchies. If we reach the point where power is entrenched in a corrupt system of politics, one where the positions of power are distributed to those with familial connections as opposed to genuine ability, we face the possibility of an armed struggle to regain an uncorrupted system (even then, it's a toss-up and dependent on the character and capability of the leadership of the rebellion). The struggle becomes necessary in order to protect the commonwealth, the value of the lives of the populace of the society. We know this, because we've done it before: again and again and again.

So, having established that people are barely able to keep a society functional and rewarding to the populace that makes up its component parts, that we need to respect the learning of those that came before us (particularly when they've experienced cataclysms like WW2 and various wars of independence), that we are inclined to repeat the same dumb mistakes that allow the corruption and demise of political systems and societies, why not study the facts leading up to those collapses and see if we can not make the same mistakes? Generally, the democratic system has risen out of attempts to do precisely this: decisions about the exercise of power are debated, opposing viewpoints are valued because there is an understanding that no-one knows everything, no-one is capable of predicting the future infallibly, no-one is immune to the corruption inherent in the exercise of power. The option of non-violent change of leadership aims to preserve infrastructure and investment and allows for the continued growth in the commonwealth. It entrenches the value of others as equivalent to ourselves by way of a mechanism that specifically asks the members of the democracy to put their point of view on the value of the current leadership and values each point of view as roughly equivalent. In this way a democratic society gets the benefits of a system that drives empathy as a behaviour, whereas a political organisation based on a religious hierarchy merely teaches that such a behaviour is a requirement of a functional society: generally, those political organisations haven't taken the trouble to build the system in such a way as to include the entire populace (systems drive behaviours). A democracy is also more able to respond quickly to a change in our understanding of the world: this is useful in times of crisis and lends itself to a possibility of self-repair, eradication of corruption without need to resort to armed conflict.

There are risks associated with the abandoning of the moral and intellectual reasonings that underlie the legal and political systems of our democracies. These risks have not been adequately factored in because there is a belief on the part of the leadership that those risks do not apply to them: they are ignorant of history and believe that the military will do as it is told: it will protect those in power from the consequences of abuse of power. Apparently humility is the province of the sheeple, as is any consequence of poor decision making by our leadership.

[Stalins Organ]

So killing should be answered with killing?

It usually is in a war.

and I have no great problem for killing to be punished by killing either, as long as ther is no doubt. I've bee nattacked for that position on here before, am happy to be attacked for repeating it .

They kill and cheer in the streets then we kill and cheer in the streets, I was saddened the other night by the scenes of jubilation in America mainly because it looked just like down town Baghdad with different hair styles.

I am saddened that you cannot see the difference between killing somone who advocates and practices mass murder of civilians, and killing mass numbers of civilians.

i really think you should think about it a bit more.

You do not defeat your enemy by becoming your enemy in fact you hand them victory.

Just as well we haven't become AQ then - phew - glad we dodged the bullet on that one!

[Magpie_Oz]

I am saddened that you cannot see the difference between killing somone who advocates and practices mass murder of civilians, and killing mass numbers of civilians.

I really think you should think about it a bit more.

You should drop the patronising tone mate.

The Iraq Body Count (independent US/UK study group) project released a report detailing the deaths it recorded between March 2003 and March 2005 in which it recorded 24,865 civilian deaths. The report says the U.S. and its allies were responsible for the largest share (37%) of the 24,865 deaths. The remaining deaths were attributed to anti-occupations forces (9%), crime (36%) and unknown agents (11%). It also lists the primary sources used by the media — mortuaries, medics, Iraqi officials, eyewitnesses, police, relatives, U.S.-coalition, journalists, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), friends/associates and other.

No one is without sin in all this, killing breeds killing total count in Iraq is up around 1.2 million these days, around 24000 insurgents have been killed and about 5000 allied combatants.

Whether the killing is justified or retaliation or murder is simply a matter of perspective. Al Qeda believes it is doing the right thing just as much as we believe we are and thus it just goes on and on and on without end.

"and I have no great problem for killing to be punished by killing either"

That is the root of the problem, until such time as we gain the maturity as a species to move beyond the law of the jungle we are doomed to continue on this path.

[gunnergoz]

It's kind of hard to evolve peacefully when someone is coming at you with murder in their eyes and a weapon in their hands.

That being said, I concur that the future of the species is pretty grim, since we do seem to enjoy killing one another waaay too much for my tastes. The only thing that has saved the species from extinction is the fact that we breed like rabbits.

[Magpie_Oz]

It's kind of hard to evolve peacefully when someone is coming at you with murder in their eyes and a weapon in their hands.

It's easy, don't give them any reason to kill you.

[abneo3sierra]

It's easy, don't give them any reason to kill you.

Their stated(over,and over, and over again) reasons for killing us is because we are infidels..I do not plan on converting,sorry mate. They have written books on this subject over and over again. Their #2 reason, is refusal to admit that the state of Israel has a right to exist..Israel is the only democracy in the region that is truly free, I also would not be willing to turn them lose to conduct a second holocaust..in short, their strange beliefs give them all the reason they need to kill us, without us doing a damned thing.

We have forces in the Middle East,since the 1990s..yes, they were sent (myself included) to defend an Islamic nation(Saudi Arabia) and free another(Kuwait)..use of THIS as a reason for their hatred, is only something they spew to the media who is usually willing to slurp it up.

In short, their hatred(and not the hatred of Islam,but rather of those who would use it for their more sinister desires) should not stop us from doing anything. An awful lot of, for example, Afghans ,actually are glad we are there..this includes a lot of women who otherwise are in the same category as cattle.A lot of them will also be glad Osama is dead, yet the general view from the media will concentrate on those who are angry about it...those people, would be angry at us even if we were dropping steak dinners to them.

[gunnergoz]

It's easy, don't give them any reason to kill you.

Ah, if it were only so simple as that. Yes, we could simply retreat to our own shores and pretend the rest of the world did not exist and perhaps that would appease them. Then again, the hard-core among them will not be content until the world is converted to their religion. In that respect, they're no different from any other religious "true believers" of any ilk.

I concur that a more intelligent and far-reaching US foreign policy might have avoided some of the recent unpleasantness...say, since the Marshall Plan. Unfortunately, this is the real world and human frailty and stupidity reign over reason and logic. That applies equally to both sides.

That being the case, I'd rather be on this side of the equation, where there is at least a pretense of maintaining some individual freedoms.

[JonS]

I'd rather be on this side of the equation, where there is at least a pretense of maintaining some individual freedoms.

So would I, but the problem is that all too often US foreign policy seeks to maintian individual freedoms of the US at the expense of, well, pretty much everyone else. There are plenty of examples of this from the first four months of this year alone, let alone the last 60 years.

There is a middle way between being a bumbling meddler squashing freedom and aspirations in the deluded search for 'stability' on the one hand, and retreating back to Fortress America on the other.

(Incidentally, FWIW, the UK and France have trod that exact same path, most notably recently in Lybia)