A Quick Battle AAR: Shermans vs Pz IVs, Not Your Fathers Combat Mission

[Sergei]

Cool!

I predict a lot of out of shape and poorly motivated yet mysteriously well trained tank crews.

This may not be a very good idea, at least if you don't want want them to panic and abandon their ship after the first hit by a door knocker.

[Chops]

Ah hell,. I used to think I was reasonably intelligent, but now I will have to revisit that notion. Nothing like a Rarity System to humble one. Will there be an Appendix - Rarity Points for Dummies?

Let me see if I understand - The Quick Battle is assigned a total of 2650 points for each player, "to play around with".

You have two columns; Column A for regular points with a total of 2650 available. Column B for rarity points with 2650 available.

You can choose whatever you want so long as the total for Column A is 2650 or less, and the total for Column B is 2650 or less. Column A and Column B would never be added together to get 2650. Each column is on it's own.

If this is not correct, just forget about it. I will go back to puffin' on my hooka and will wait to RTFM.

[ChrisND]

PS

I predict a lot of out of shape and poorly motivated yet mysteriously well trained tank crews.

Believe me, already tried. Fitness does not affect the cost of tank crews.

[Michael Emrys]

Let me see if I understand - The Quick Battle is assigned a total of 2650 points for each player, "to play around with".

You have two columns; Column A for regular points with a total of 2650 available. Column B for rarity points with 2650 available.

You can choose whatever you want so long as the total for Column A is 2650 or less, and the total for Column B is 2650 or less. Column A and Column B would never be added together to get 2650. Each column is on it's own.

You got it. Finally! BTW, could you pass that hookah over this way?

Michael

[Chops]

You got it. Finally! BTW, could you pass that hookah over this way?

Michael

Absotootley Sir Michael! That is how I finally grasped this stuff. It is worse than a Calculus exam for chrissakes.

Heh, did I really get it?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

The idea of separate point pools has grown on me.

This way you can still get some of the rare kit without hamstringing your combat effectiveness yet without it at the same time turning in to an exotic panzer fest.

Steve,

I get you can free up points. I was "complaining" that it would be too easy.

Instead of mixing and matching crew experience until I get it juuuuust right I can now drop Motivation on some crews to to that of 'defeatist'. It is too easy I tell you! Where is the fear and doubt that was involved in nickel and diming for those last few points in CMx1.

This may not be a very good idea, at least if you don't want want them to panic and abandon their ship after the first hit by a door knocker.

Depends, I guess. For a Sherman, anything hitting it is likely to be Bad News so you might as well cut a motivational corner here or there, whereas in a Tiger you might want your crew to be a bit more stress resistant as you get plinked by 57 and 75mm.

Oh, hello, I think I found myself replacement fear and doubt.

[YankeeDog]

Ho boy the cherry picking you can do... and with the new attachment system it can reach stupendous levels.

I've gotten in the habit of attaching a 3-man demo team riding on a jeep to some of my tank platoons to breach bocage for them.

I don't think this tactic is particularly gamey, at least as a general concept. The U.S. Army experimented with various tactics for breaching the bocage. One thing that was done with some success was detailing teams of engineers with explosives to work closely with tanks. This worked passably well, though one problem was that the engineers themselves were easily "brushed off" the tank by small arms fire and/or mortar fire, making it difficult for the infantry and the tank to stay together.

The only thing that seems a bit ahistorical about your tactic is using a Jeep to carry the engineers around -- In the examples I've read of this tactic, the engineers rode on the tank if they couldn't keep up on foot. But since CMBN doesn't model tank riding yet, your use of a Jeep for transport seems like a reasonable abstraction. After all, the engineers are nearly as vulnerable in the Jeep as they would be on the back of one of the tanks.

Cheers,

YD

[Sergei]

By the way, in case you didn't notice, there's that big 'Suggestions' button in the OOB screen as well. Rather than offering to buy you a drink it will purchase you a force to go with, just like if you had chosen automatic force selections in the QB settings, but with the difference that you can freely modify the force from there. Or you can click on the button again to get another suggestion, or just delete the forces and start from scratch. This can be handy if you want to get into the battle QUICKLY but still want to customize some parts.

[panzermartin]

Why are these called Quick Battles..Isnt quickest to just launch a scenario?

J/k

The possibilities are really endless, this is going to bring back the CMx1 memories in a 2010 form. The next weeks till release will be painfuly slow..

[JonS]

The idea of separate point pools has grown on me.

This way you can still get some of the rare kit without hamstringing your combat effectiveness yet without it at the same time turning in to an exotic panzer fest.

It reminds me of this

I think Charles might be the inspiration for Black Hat Guy

[Battlefront.com]

The idea of separate point pools has grown on me.

This way you can still get some of the rare kit without hamstringing your combat effectiveness yet without it at the same time turning in to an exotic panzer fest.

That's exactly what it was designed to do Rarity was a novel concept in CMx1 days, but it didn't work as well as any of us wanted it to. The new system works MUCH better.

I get you can free up points. I was "complaining" that it would be too easy.

You are correct that with more variables to play with you do have more control over exactly what you get. However, it's not like the variables are just about points... they are about performance. As has already been said, dropping Morale will free up points, but it's really not a good idea. WW2 tanks, for example, usually need a couple of shots before they score a hit. If your crew is too f'n scared to stay within sight of the enemy long enough to get off a couple shots then you'd probably have been better off buying one less tank and beefing up the stats of the others.

Remember also that you can play QBs with the computer picking the stats for you. Just like in CMx1 you can have a situation where you play a small, quality force against a larger rather crappy force. I personally really liked that type of game.

Steve

[sfhand]

...

Just like in CMx1 you can have a situation where you play a small, quality force against a larger rather crappy force. I personally really liked that type of game.

Steve

CMSF is a living testament to that...:D:D

[sand digger]

So, where is this thing happening, seven pages...........

[aka_Hawk]

So, where is this thing happening, seven pages...........

I believe it's still quite early in the States, so probably no new posts for a while.

[Markus86]

Maybe it is possible to split the AAR and the discussion?

[Bil Hardenberger]

Markus86, the AAR and the discussion go hand in hand IMO.

I like the free flow of information and the questions asked and answered approach. It will only add to the AAR I think and gives everybody something to do while I pull together my information.

The first post in this thread will have links to my posts and to Warren's as well (the first links are already there). Look there if you would like to bypass all the chatter.

The next post is written, I just need to put together the images for it and then I'll post it. Hopefully in a couple of hours.

Bil

[sfhand]

Okay, I'm feeling guilty about razzing Steve without offering anything even remotely constructive to the discussion, so let me say this about CMBN QB's. In the build I saw, the only hands-on I did was to select a German force for a QB. I am not a grog and was somewhat overwhelmed by all the choices and the flexibility of the system that were available to me along with the limitations imposed by the point and rarity systems, which is a very good thing, IMHO. After the force was selected there was a glitch that caused us to restart the QB and I stepped aside and let someone else check it out, but I left thinking that QB's are going to offer players the chance to dig very deeply into the selection process if they want, or not. And while I know that a very large amout of work has been done on QB AI plans and maps, for me QB's will be the crown jewel of pvp battles (for me after I get to explore the system without a sense of urgency).

[Bil Hardenberger]

PRE-BATTLE PLANNING

Before any attack acquaint yourself with the ground. Use the information provided by other units or by the map. Share this information with your subordinate commanders. Exact information and correct estimation of the terrain will be the decisive difference between victory and defeat.

Losses due to over-hasty action are your responsibility and place the success of the mission in jeopardy.

Only careful combat reconnaissance can protect you from surprise. Protect to your flanks as well as the front. Observation to all sides is the duty of every commander. ALWAYS KEEP YOUR EYE OUT FOR THE ENEMY!

From the German Army pamphlet: Panzer Vorwärts! Aber mit Verstand!

My start postion:

It is my belief that almost every battle must be preceded by a battlefield reconnaissance. I will normally assign up to a third of my force to this mission in the hopes of identifying the enemy main avenues of approach (AA), the types of units I am facing (I do an Order of Battle analysis from the contacts identified), and his main course of action (COA). From the hints given by the spotting reports the recon units send in, I can usually identify what he, the opposing player, intends to do, or sometimes more importantly, what he intends to not do (for example, like not move down a potential avenue of approach, which could open up an opportunity for exploitation). I am always on the lookout for these hints and suggestions.

I am not going to give you guys a class on recon, you can find that elsewhere. What I am going to do is show you the main AAs I thought Warren might use and how I intended to reconnoiter those avenues. I will share some of the conclusions I came to as the battle unfolded.

Here I have highlighted a few of the avenues that I expected Warren could take. I must point out that he could always do something completely different. That is why a thorough reconnaissance is so important in these early stages of the battle and before you get over hasty and commit your forces before you should.

AA1 would be a fair approach for Warren because he could hold his right flank and set a base of fire up in the trees to cover that entire flank and potentially cover the objective as well.

AA2 would be a very good approach, especially if he could rush through the objective and take up positions in the tree line (as identified). He would have possession of the objective and control the center.

AA3 could be a superior move. Sending a force this direction in conjunction with another force down AA 2 could potentially be very effective and AA3 could be used to flank me if I concentrated in the center to cover the objective. If I didn’t defend this avenue he could roll up my flank and the battle would be over very fast.

On the left I was mainly interested in identifying movement down AA1. To be honest, I thought AA2 and AA3 together were the most likely approaches because enemy units on each could potentially act together and Warren could shift resources from one to the other with his interior lines, where a unit coming down AA 1 would be separated from any other maneuvering element and at risk. In fact, if there is an element moving down AA1 then I will want to strike it with the majority of my combat power and eliminate it before it could be reinforced.

Another two tank element was sent to overwatch AA3. The other element of this Platoon I sent to take up a good blocking position a little to the rear of this scouting element as a reserve. I like a strong flank.

After I began to see what Warren was up to I would start to make some decisions and commit my tanks.

Next: Opening Moves

[The_Capt]

Ok, my plan and estimate:

First off I made one error early on..I assumed (there is that word) that Bil would have a similar force structure (ie armour and infantry mix). I saw some nice ground for it in his center during the preview. I have to admit it did not enter my mind until much later that he might have gone with an all armour force.

As it turned out I was taking a serious gamble and time would tell if it paid off. But I will add that in QBs force purchase is still central to the game. Now however we can see the map before hand which does make planning easier.

Looking back at Bil's plan it became damn obvious early that this was a classic "two fat guys race around a table to get at the doughnut" fight. We both had big clumps of trees and roughly two approaches to the center.

My plan wasn't what Bil had scoped out, as it turned out I did have AA1 and AA2 as possible armoured approaches but my AA3 was straight up the middle thru the trees with my infantry. I really liked this option as that treeline ended very close to the objective and could cover it very well. I had 2xAirborne Pls with a Coy HQ which are a things of beauty firepower-wise, so any infantry Bil might send out would be in trouble. The Airborne also come with AT teams built, that plus the Coy one gave me three, so not bad in the tank-killing department.

So what to do with the tanks. Well I did mull over splitting them up sending M10s one way and Shermans the other, or mix em up but to be honest I like bashing tanks together so I chose the left (AA2 approach). I was going to push my M10s closer to the treeline as it had some decent hull down positions and push my Shermans out. I figured we could play smash-face for awhile until my infantry arrived and then do an all arms push to the objective, which handily did have some nice buildings on it.

So armoured fist up the left, sneaky infantry up the middle...see you in the Holy Land!!

[GhostRider3/3]

Hello Bill, and the Capt...could you tell us a little bit more about the overall map, were there any hills or defilades etc. It is sort of difficult to see if there are any from the map especially if your in overwatch.. or another advantageous position. I think I can make out a couple of ridge lines but not sure. Thanks so much, love the details in your report, cant wait for more.

Oh yeah.. one more Question: The Range or measure of the battlefield. The range of the 90mm gun on the US TD's would definetly be a plus here, as well as any 76mm Sherman, however the German 75mm of the PzIVH was a way better gun then the 75mm of the Sherman. Just also want to gauge how far from opposing treelines, ridgelines etc. the engagements would be fought at. Is there Zero advantage for the German 75mm here due to short range.... basically is this a gunfight at the OK Corral (400-600m), or is this a Ranged engagment of at least 700-900m or more... because lets face it.. the only advantage the PzIVH had was probably Crew Training, Morale, optics and a very lethal High Velocity 75mm gun. The Armor was ok from the front... but the 90mm would surly open up a can of whoop ass.

Thanks.

[Barkhorn1x]

Ghostrider:

M-10s had 76mm guns (well 3" - close enough) not 90mm - you are thinking of the M-36 and none were available in June of '44.

[The_Capt]

Hello Bill, and the Capt...could you tell us a little bit more about the overall map, were there any hills or defilades etc. It is sort of difficult to see if there are any from the map especially if your in overwatch.. or another advantageous position. I think I can make out a couple of ridge lines but not sure. Thanks so much, love the details in your report, cant wait for more.

Oh yeah.. one more Question: The Range or measure of the battlefield. The range of the 90mm gun on the US TD's would definetly be a plus here, as well as any 76mm Sherman, however the German 75mm of the PzIVH was a way better gun then the 75mm of the Sherman. Just also want to gauge how far from opposing treelines, ridgelines etc. the engagements would be fought at. Is there Zero advantage for the German 75mm here due to short range.... basically is this a gunfight at the OK Corral (400-600m), or is this a Ranged engagment of at least 700-900m or more... because lets face it.. the only advantage the PzIVH had was probably Crew Training, Morale, optics and a very lethal High Velocity 75mm gun. The Armor was ok from the front... but the 90mm would surly open up a can of whoop ass.

Thanks.

I'll let Bil work on the ground. That big clump of trees on my side was on a slight hill. M10s have a 76mm gun btw, which is what I had. Funny you should mention the 75 L/48 gun. It is actually roughly between the 75mm Sherman and actually less powerful than the US 76mm. Same one that is on the Stug III actually.

I have to admit, going in I had the same assumption but sure enough if you dig into it this was the case. A lot of people confuse this Pz IV 75mm gun with the Panther 75mm L/70, two very different guns.

Having tested and played with CMBN, I think it is fair to say it is more realistic than CMx1 and is going to challenge some basic assumptions for returning players.

[GhostRider3/3]

Ghostrider:

M-10s had 76mm guns (well 3" - close enough) not 90mm - you are thinking of the M-36 and none were available in June of '44.

Ahh yes.. I stand corrected.. I always get those two confused as they looked a little similar. I have to admit I am an Axis guru not really savy on all the Allied material.

[Broadsword56]

I predict the Shermans and M-10s will do well in this kind of terrain, with lots of cover.

Having some infantry should also help the US hold terrain, something the Germans will have trouble doing with just tanks.

[Tux]

On this map, at these ranges, nobody has any meaningful advantage in terms of armour quality. I expect every tank/ TD on the map should pretty reliably penetrate any other from any aspect with one shot. Do all of the Pz IVHs on the map have very fast turrets to match the Shermans'? That could be one source of an advantage for the US side if not.