More on Assange

[Pešadija]

Then would you agree that the already smaller, more specialized and trained army of today should perhaps be even stricter in its moral and psychological requirements?

A broken youngster is another tragedy I don't like.

Ah, I wanted to see Afghanistan and the situation for myself, but a bureaucratic error barred my access in the italian army.

[abneo3sierra]

Then would you agree that the already smaller, more specialized and trained army of today should perhaps be even stricter in its moral and psychological requirements?

I do indeed.

[Pešadija]

Good. I reckon my point was that. Since we go for quality, why not go all the way?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Edit: I stand corrected..he said they "knew the risks" still...not a valid argument for an "idealist"..it is akin to the bank robber who kills the clerk, saying that he knew the risk of working in a bank...

And to be fair and unbiased, he did defend it by saying the informants were doing wrong...hardly an argument anyone KNOWING would say, as they risk their lives to help their country, but as Mr. Assange is not a "knowing" person, then I would actually give him the benefit of the doubt that he somehow felt it was ..well.."deserved" http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/publication-of-afghan-informant-details-worth-the-risk-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange/story-e6frg6so-1225898273552

"Well, they're informants so, if they get killed, they've got it coming to them. They deserve it."

LInk

[dieseltaylor]

SO how many informers died? Or is it a supposition?

And if you like in an information war and transparency being important I do wonder if there is not an argument to say that casualties happen. But on a far far smaller scale than going to war.

Reverting to odd ball heroes both Gandhi and Churchill might also be tarnished.

abneo3sierra you said that things might be different if Assange had gone to the front-line - surely it would have been better for everyone if GWB, and Cheney, and Blair, had some conception of how awful war is. None of them has ever served.

Mr Elmer was arrested by police in Zurich after apparently giving Mr Assange two CDs in London reputedly containing the details of up to 2,000 well known tax evaders.

The list includes 40 politicians and various celebrities – and the names could be published within days once they are verified.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1351927/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assange-new-book-Afghan-informants-deserve-killed.html#ixzz1FSEtnswH

[Vanir Ausf B]

SO how many informers died? Or is it a supposition?

Who said informants died? The point was and is that Assange never cared if they did or didn't.

And if you like in an information war and transparency being important I do wonder if there is not an argument to say that casualties happen.

Absolutely. **** happens in war. Collateral damage is to be expected.

[abneo3sierra]

Ahh,thanks Vanir, you did find the quote, I was starting to think I imagined it.

And yes Diesel, I do think ANYONE who goes to war, would see it differently, however, my point was that if Assange went, he would see his reasons for being against it are wrong, his beliefs about what is going on over there, would be wrong.

[dieseltaylor]

The other side DOES target civilians, almost exclusively. And while I would prefer not any being killed, we are making THEIR country better, also, and I would prefer if there will be deaths, to be not from my own side. 9-11, the Madrid bombing, Khobar Towers, etc... show me that it is worth it to fight them somewhere besides here. My hope is that they will pick up their own fight, and their own security, and kill their own terrorists, and we can go home.

I do think ANYONE who goes to war, would see it differently, however, my point was that if Assange went, he would see his reasons for being against it are wrong, his beliefs about what is going on over there, would be wrong.

I was thinking to myself that making countries better, reducing violence, poverty, inequality, sex discrimination , save endangered wildlife, cut carbon emissions ,and threat to other nations by the simple expedient of wiping out all the current population.

"Better" is a such a subjective view anyway. Iraqui losses climbing into the hundreds of thousands, Fallujah contaminated with a huge deformed baby birth rate*, so the benefit ought to be good.

So are women better off? No. Are companies trading in arms and oil better off ? Yes

Is the health of the nation better - not really. Etc etc. So Assange or anybody else going to Iraq will say this was a totally unjustifiable war.

Looking at Afghanistan, another mission where entering into a conventional war and staying has been nothing but a diaster for the Afghans.

It may appear to Americans that fighting on foreign soil is better than being a possible target. It is a silly illusion as only drones will be fighting there and the smart people will be plotting regardless.

The mission creep is popular with certain sections of the US - arms manufactureres, politicians with plants in theier area, and it provides lots of employment opportunities for the likes of "Blackwater" [now Xe], and young men who would otherwise be unemployed in the US.

I do so wish someone had had the smarts to stop mission creep and get the Army working on infra-structure projects in the US.

**http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/302052

[Pešadija]

On the other hand, cutting the serpent's head in Lybia, for a democratic change that people wanted.

I was astonished by the lightning speed of governments.

Like, two-three weeks into the crisis and they freeze his goods abroad. WOW.

America could have been a textbook hero there, almost like in the movies. As could have Europe.

[abneo3sierra]

I was thinking to myself that making countries better, reducing violence, poverty, inequality, sex discrimination , save endangered wildlife, cut carbon emissions ,and threat to other nations by the simple expedient of wiping out all the current population.

"Better" is a such a subjective view anyway. Iraqui losses climbing into the hundreds of thousands, Fallujah contaminated with a huge deformed baby birth rate*, so the benefit ought to be good.

So are women better off? No. Are companies trading in arms and oil better off ? Yes

Is the health of the nation better - not really. Etc etc. So Assange or anybody else going to Iraq will say this was a totally unjustifiable war.

Looking at Afghanistan, another mission where entering into a conventional war and staying has been nothing but a diaster for the Afghans.

It may appear to Americans that fighting on foreign soil is better than being a possible target. It is a silly illusion as only drones will be fighting there and the smart people will be plotting regardless.

The mission creep is popular with certain sections of the US - arms manufactureres, politicians with plants in theier area, and it provides lots of employment opportunities for the likes of "Blackwater" [now Xe], and young men who would otherwise be unemployed in the US.

I do so wish someone had had the smarts to stop mission creep and get the Army working on infra-structure projects in the US.

**http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/302052

Our army is constitutionally forbidden from working in the US for the most part, it is an ARMY, not a police force or construction force designed to build infrastructure.

Are women better off? Yes, they are allowed to attend school now, as just one of many examples, where in Taliban controlled environments that was a crime punishable by death...surely you are not defending that treatment of women?

Mission creep, as you said, IS a factor..unfortunately caused by the same thought process that would ask soldiers to "build infrastructure" however...an army is designed for a single task, and its use should be limited to that task, we should not be being "policemen" in Afghanistan now, nor should we be trying to conduct many of the other missions slowly being added in the "mission creep" process, IMHO. And anyone who actually GOES to Iraq in the field will likely see this. It is why I stated that Assange should make an effort, not to hear what drones far away think of the war, but to see what it has done on the ground. In Iraq, whole towns where Saddam executed all the males, now have been able to slowly grow back..girls and women who were subjected to being rounded up by guards for nightly rape sessions, no longer have to face this, and can concentrate on building a life..so yes, it is better now, even with the trouble spots, than it was before American and allied forces arrived in theater.

Ron

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Eager to get permission because as the famous movie "Blackhawk Down" shows well, Heli's are sitting ducks to RPGs..can fire and destroy the RPG easily, but it is a race to see who fires first. Combat is meant to be that way, the slower side dies.

From memory, the engagement range of that Wikileaks example was around the 1.5 km mark with the camera footage highly zoomed in. I can't see too many RPG's flying upwards in the air for 1.5 km's to destroy a helicopter, especially considering they're designed to engage ground targets at relatively short range. Oh... no homing device on RPG's either.

Using Blackhawk Down film as the reference point is pretty dishonest considering the helicopters in that engagement were hovering some 10 to 20 metres above the ground amongst multi level buildings in order to drop off troops on ropes. That's an example of danger close use of helicopters as opposed to a gunship loitering in the sky over a kilometre away from the hotspot.

Regards

KR

[Affentitten]

From memory, the engagement range of that Wikileaks example was around the 1.5 km mark with the camera footage highly zoomed in. I can't see too many RPG's flying upwards in the air for 1.5 km's to destroy a helicopter, especially considering they're designed to engage ground targets at relatively short range. Oh... no homing device on RPG's either.

Using Blackhawk Down film as the reference point is pretty dishonest considering the helicopters in that engagement were hovering some 10 to 20 metres above the ground amongst multi level buildings in order to drop off troops on ropes. That's an example of danger close use of helicopters as opposed to a gunship loitering in the sky over a kilometre away from the hotspot.

:rolleyes

Regards

KR

Mate, I wouldn't even bother. It's a straw man argument to the OP anyway.

[abneo3sierra]

From memory, the engagement range of that Wikileaks example was around the 1.5 km mark with the camera footage highly zoomed in. I can't see too many RPG's flying upwards in the air for 1.5 km's to destroy a helicopter, especially considering they're designed to engage ground targets at relatively short range. Oh... no homing device on RPG's either.

Using Blackhawk Down film as the reference point is pretty dishonest considering the helicopters in that engagement were hovering some 10 to 20 metres above the ground amongst multi level buildings in order to drop off troops on ropes. That's an example of danger close use of helicopters as opposed to a gunship loitering in the sky over a kilometre away from the hotspot.

:rolleyes

Regards

KR

Only used a civilian film because it has been (probably) seen by most here, or, at least *known about* by most here, where if I were to give more technical replies, many would likely not know of what I was writing. Also note the rest of the post that this incident was involving a running battle on the ground, air support is intended to support units on the ground from threats on the ground.

[abneo3sierra]

Mate, I wouldn't even bother. It's a straw man argument to the OP anyway.

Not really a straw man argument, he made a good point, which I clarified, I hope.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

"Well, they're informants so, if they get killed, they've got it coming to them. They deserve it."

LInk

Lemme see... this so called quote by Assange is contained within a book that's recently been published no doubt with a view to maximise sales, which we all know, is helped by sensationalism. The actual text either side of this alleged quote from the book, reads as follows from your link...

Assange's apparent gung-ho attitude in an early meeting to naming to naming U.S. informants stunned his media collaborators, the new book claimed.

The title said he told international reporters: 'Well, they're informants so, if they get killed, they've got it coming to them. They deserve it.' The book continues: 'There was, for a moment, silence around the table.'

The allegations were made in a new book published today by the Guardian timed to coincide with another title released by the New York Times.

So, lets look at this article with a critical eye. Firstly there were supposedly a bunch of international reporters present when Assange made this alleged statement yet I haven't managed to find one of them who has independantly published a story honing in on this highly inflammatory statement. Something I would have thought any jounalist worth their salt would do seeing as it's such a sensational allegation.

Secondly, the article makes mention of these being "allegations" yet somehow it's now being interpreted by yourself as being a cold hard FACT.

Thirdly... there's mention of the good 'ol Guardian yet again who published the book. They seem to really have a hard on for good ol' Julian don't they.

It appears to me that critical thinking skills have all but disappeared from certain posters on this board.

Regards

KR

[abneo3sierra]

KR, again, the Guardian is actually one of the papers most likely to AGREE with Assange's viewpoint, this was the reason for this post actually to begin with..everything the Guardian says in 99.999999% of its stories, would generally be coming from the "same side" of the table as Assange sits on. So explain, please, how they are somehow "anti-Assange" biased? Making this argument that they ARE biased against Assange, seems to me the indication of missing critical thinking skills.

[abneo3sierra]

For what it's worth, critical thinking demands the willingness to challenge and test your own ideas, not to stubbornly stand by them..so while I do this(stubbornly stand by mine) admittedly, every single one of you generally does the same with your replies.

[ironbar]

KR,

Just for the record, in Mogadishu of the 3 helos hit only one was hovering at the time (Super 68), Super 61 was at approx 150 feet and estimated at 40 knots in a wide left turn when hit, and iirc Super 62 was descending (approx 200 feet) and accelerating when hit.

[costard]

So you're saying that Fox has bought The Guardian? Not really news to me; cognitive dissonance an' all that jive. I only believe what I read in the bible and what God tells me personally and you, sir, are going to hell. Have a nice trip.

[abneo3sierra]

So you're saying that Fox has bought The Guardian? Not really news to me; cognitive dissonance an' all that jive. I only believe what I read in the bible and what God tells me personally and you, sir, are going to hell. Have a nice trip.

I am totally confused by your post, sorry...Who said Fox bought Guardian? What does God tell you personally?

[costard]

.. oh, stuff. You know. Things, really neat things.

Face it, if we were readily able to change our minds to agree with you, you'd miss out on more than half the fun in your life. Of course, you could order lobotomies for us and claim the discount on a bulk rate.

[abneo3sierra]

.. oh, stuff. You know. Things, really neat things.

Face it, if we were readily able to change our minds to agree with you, you'd miss out on more than half the fun in your life. Of course, you could order lobotomies for us and claim the discount on a bulk rate.

I do not ask for change of mind, I simply enjoy thoughtful debate, but that requires an honesty and an open-mindedness that is decidedly lacking.

[costard]

..like factual statements somewhat relating to the actual truth?

Did the US Army Engineers build the dykes and drains that emptied the Everglades and enabled the development of a greater part of Miami? Did the US Army fight at the Alamo and Little Bighorn? How about the various student riots and protests where US soldiers fired upon and killed US citizens? What is this... stuff... about the US Army not being legally allowed to operate, serve, whatever, in the US? If you are ignorant of the truth, rest assured we will call you out on it.

[dieseltaylor]

Good . I ws going to mention the Engineers.

As I understand it Iraq was a fully secular society with female doctors, engineers etc etc before the invasion but in fact it is the Iraqi middle class who are most likely to have fled the country.

http://smintheusblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/decapitation-of-secular-iraq.html

Accepting that the invasion was a mistake the complete shambles that followed the toppling of Saddam was an even more grotesque horror. Taking over a country and dismantling its existing institutions was mad and guaranteed to cause chaos. phew!

[Pešadija]

Hah. Costard said dykes. Funny words are funny.