President Hosni Mubarak steps down?

[abneo3sierra]

Of course, I THINK our system is best lol, but it's ok, I hope that you will think yours is best, also.

That said, we ALL have flaws, also.

Also, I do think democracy is the only one that cannot be corrupt...why should people be forced to adhere to a government that does not listen to them? Did we choose where to be born? So just because I am born in , for example, Cuba..I should not be able to have free speech,to vote for representatives?etc who agree with me?

Democracy CAN be corrupt..other forms, in general, already are.

[Michael Emrys]

Churchill once said something along the lines of, "Democracy is an absolutely horrid form of government...it's just that all the others are so much worse."

Michael

[dieseltaylor]

I do not think that The UK system is good. I approve of the Swiss system where power is from the bottom up,. And of course they use referendums.

However I am not convinced even that system, best of breed, can necessarily be transported to a country and work. The reason for that is , if you like, education and control of news.

is called " The lying US conglomerate Media" which is very interesting ten minutes showing how and why the population are manipulated to support causes. It gives very specific examples.

In any event just as an example of misinformation here is an interesting article on misleading voters:

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/102.php

While it would seem that misperceptions are derived from a failure to pay attention to the news, in fact, overall, those who pay greater attention to the news are no less likely to have misperceptions. Among those who primarily watch Fox, those who pay more attention are more likely to have misperceptions. Only those who mostly get their news from print media have fewer misperceptions as they pay more attention.

The level of misperceptions varies according to Americans' political positions. Supporters of President Bush and Republicans are more likely to have misperceptions. However, misperceptions do not appear to only be the result of bias, because a significant number of people who do not have such political positions also have misperceptions.

It does not really matter what the subject is - the fact remains that in a democracy can manipulate the population if they have reasonable control of the media. And is it a surprise that media is being controlled by fewer and fewer organisations?

Now if the mass of the population is not that clued up on lies/statistics/geography and history then the educated minority are screwed. : ) For all pratical puposes perhaps a monkish class of bureaucrats may provide a more long term view of govenmant, and better for not being chopped and changed every 4 years.

[abneo3sierra]

While I agree with the idea of that article, I see them as backwards, with my own observation being that the print media,and most other media, is entirely full of mis-statements and outright lies...the worse maybe being that they actually pretend to be the real "unbiased" ones, while everyone knows that Fox is biased.

As for the rest... in the American idea, government is not intended to be our "rulers" it is intended to work FOR us, to solve problems...and people who stay forever, tend to try to be rulers. In reality, the American politicians seem to forget this often though, which was the entire idea behind the "Tea-Party"manifestation that won so handily at the polls this past year. The "Tea Party" which in fact, is not, and never will be, an actual party..was filled with Democrats and Republicans, both annoyed that for most of last year while serious debates were going on in congress, congressmen whose duty is to represent us, instead of rule over us, refused to take phone calls from constituents, refused to discuss things with their 'clients' ie. the people in their district, etc.

This also in the end, proved to be one of the more serious "print media" lies, an outright distortion, with not even an excuse for "maybe getting it a little bit wrong" as they tried to shove the whole Tea party movement into "Republican opposition to a black president" etc..which in no way was it about, the Tea Party movement including some roughly 20% African Americans,roughly equal,maybe even more, than their representation in the public as a whole.

[dieseltaylor]

I have a lot of sympathy for the Tea Party and can understand the frustrations. Everyone know that the Govt has failed to control Wall St. and the big bust - perhaps moreso politicians facilitated it. If there was some punishment going on people might have felt better - but apparently no one was to blame. That cannot be true and one really feels the sense of frustration could have been sharpened to this point but somehow what seems the obvious rallying call has been diffused away.

The facilitation/infiltration of the Tea Party has been interesting to see as established interests attempted to use it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html

Its a great shame that real feelings are agin being manipulated and the final message distorted.

BTW regarding Wall St -

http://www.propublica.org/article/banks-self-dealing-super-charged-financial-crisis

[noxnoctum]

Ya I wouldn't mind a bloodless revolution here in the States. Congress is in the pockets of Big Oil, Big Pharma and all the special interest groups so much it's absurd.

So much BS and flip flopping from the politicians too.

I heard somewhere about either a country or a state implementing a system where you had "two" votes... first you write/check the box of the candidate you REALLY want (i.e. someone who might not be given a chance to even get an interview on the news but lines up with your views really well) and then your "backup" (one of the main two contestants... it'd give parties like the Libertarian and Green parties a chance).

If we could just get that going and overtturn the unlimited amount of money corporations can give a candidate that the Supreme Court decided a while ago we'd be way ahead already.

But diesel, the teaparty is utterly retarded. It's all angry old white people. They complain about spending but where were they when we were wasting billions in Iraq for no good reason after it was clear that there were no WMDs? (invading a country isn't the way to take care of that anyways... Israel's proved that a few times) The Teaparty was originally straight libertarians amongst them many democrats and was led by Ron Paul who wants us to pull basically ALL our military forces out (including in Germany etc.) and back home and end the drug war amongst other things. The nutty part of the right wing hijacked it and pretty much ousted Ron since he was against the war.

Just watch this:

Obviously it's edited and yes it's made by a left winger but notice he never really asks leading questions. They damn themselves. And I know that there are some intelligent and reasonable tea partiers but you look at some polls and something like 30% of the Republican party still think Obama isn't an American citizen . With the tea party it's way worse. I mean they had a candidate who had an anti-masturbation campaign going on, no joke. They're nuts. You ask these people to name any other amendment to the constitution other than #2 and they're stumped. They constantly are ranting about how the USA was founded on "Christian ideals" and stuff... they're completely ignorant of the fact that most of the founding fathers were either deists, masons, or both. They also dress themselves up in the American flag which is hilarious as they're saying they're patriots but "wearing" the flag is officially a desecration of it.

Anyways, if they really gave a crap about the debt and govt. spending they'd all be for getting us out of our two new Vietnams and cutting the defense budget in half. Even if we cut it in half, we'd still be spending more than 3 times what China is. (the #2 defense spender)

You don't need an F22 to kill a couple guys in a cave with 60 year old weapons.

I think the debt is a huge problem too but I also believe in universal healthcare, and not the crappy version we have now, something like the French version (lived there for 6 years and it works great). We just need to slash the defense budget, end the drug war (the amount of $$$ we spend on prisons and prisoners is staggering, and many of them are arrested for non-violent cannabis related crimes), abolish the DEA completely, and we're set. Honestly I'm in favor of legalizing EVERYTHING. I don't think a bunch of people are gonna start shooting up heroin if it gets legalized... I'm not saying it should be in convenience stores, but the amount of time and money LE spend chasing drug dealers and drug users is ridiculous. Not to mention it just props up organized crime. People are gonna use drugs regardless of whether or not they're legal. I say we stop funding the drug cartels and the endless killing on the Mexican border. It's interesting too because Cannabis use actually went DOWN when it got legalized in Amsterdam, probably because it lost that "forbidden fruit" coolness factor.

It's identical to prohibition. You never heard of Al Capone and co. much after Roosevelt repealed prohibition it did you?

[abneo3sierra]

Actually Noxnoctum, those videos have already been refuted as setups. There was a quite well publicized attempt to infiltrate the Tea Party in the summer before the last elections. And as a supporter myself, I have watched the media outright lie, along with people apparently in this video also, about everything from the race of Tea Partiers (about the same division as in the overall population) the views of Tea Partiers (widely ranging, and mostly about making government work for us rather than us for them...not libertarian, not Republican,not Democrat)

Government (the federal version at least) in the constitution was designed to only do a few things, defense being one of the few. I also think it should be cut though, although the cuts I think need to be made are the overpaid civilian employees of the DOD.

And the point of corporations making unlimited donations I would agree with also, as soon as they include labor unions into the mix and limit theirs.

[noxnoctum]

Whatever dude, I just look at the gallup polls. The Tea Party is full of ignoramuses.

I've seen videos made by tea partiers themselves of the rallies and it's pretty much just as bad with the slogans and signs and the racial distribution.

We could end the debt problem RIGHT NOW if we just let go of our little proxy "empire". Why the hell do we have to be a superpower? I mean seriously? Does it benefit us in any way? Non-superpower countries like Sweden, Switzerland, etc. have much higher rates of employment and far better education systems and college graduation rates.

I've been to Switzerland a few times. Apart from being an absolutely beautiful country, there's virtually no poverty there. I mean seriously. I didn't see a SINGLE "bum" the entire time. The "poor" are lower middle class.

[abneo3sierra]

Probably I would suggest actually using your own mind, which I guarantee is smarter than the polls, and doing your own thinking my friend. Get your own facts rather than those spoon fed to the masses, and I guarantee you would change your mind.

Oh, and while I think Obama was born in the USA, I also am annoyed that he refuses to prove it, while before the election, a true American hero such as his opponent, had to prove his eligibility to close scrutiny due to being born on an American base.

It rankles me that Obama allows the stupid question of his eligibility to even continue when it SHOULD be easy to prove. Instead he offers up a short form birth certificate which is not even enough of an ID to get a passport issued by the government he himself is head of.

But he is also my Commander in Chief, so I refuse to believe he is ineligible...just wish he would shut up the debate, prove it,not too much to ask, and let us deal with more important things.

Obama has instead put millions$ to work on law teams to fight in courts, etc, to refuse to prove the issue.

And what "proxy empire" do you think America has?

[Stalins Organ]

Instead he offers up a short form birth certificate which is not even enough of an ID to get a passport issued by the government he himself is head of.

Apparently it is sufficient.

[JonS]

Obama has instead put millions$ to work on law teams to fight in courts, etc, to refuse to prove the issue.

Um ... he and many others have 'proved the issue'. Many times. Your problem is that you'd rather sustain FUD than accept the proffered proof as valid.

That and your demonstrated propensity to bring outright fabrications to the table instead of engaging honestly. Dishonourable poster is dishonourable.

When can I have my winnings?

By the way, speaking of Obama, did you know that people such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't be dead in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

[abneo3sierra]

Um ... he and many others have 'proved the issue'. Many times. Your problem is that you'd rather sustain FUD than accept the proffered proof as valid.

That and your demonstrated propensity to bring outright fabrications to the table instead of engaging honestly. Dishonourable poster is dishonourable.

When can I have my winnings?

By the way, speaking of Obama, did you know that people such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't be dead in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.

You, my friend, need to quit making assumptions about me. I actually am in favor of "Obamacare" or whatever it is called.

That said, he has NOT proved the issue of eligibility, albeit that I believe he is eligible,again, since your ability with the English language of my posts has time and again been shown to be lacking. I had (falsely, I guess? ) assumed the language "down under" to be English as well, but perhaps you simply did not finish enough school.

For the record, and as a foreigner, I know you may not know this, but look it up, if you can read.

Obama has, basically after being forced, provided a long copy of his birth certificate. This same document, were I to take it to attempt to get a passport, would be held "not acceptable" to prove that I was born in the USA. All that said, however, I DO BELIEVE he was. I simply, also, am annoyed that he does not prove it, which, he SHOULD have to. Instead, in 3 court cases right now pending in the USA, he has taxpayer-paid attorneys, not arguing that he was born in the USA, not proving that their client is telling the truth...but rather, fighting tooth and nail to avoid subpoenas, etc, that would prove it.

And one final point..you have no clue about honor, integrity, or anything resembling the above. You are, quite frankly, an annoyance, a trouble starter on these boards, and a downright miserable person.

[abneo3sierra]

Apparently it is sufficient.

The governor of the state of Hawaii, a friend of Obama's, has publicly stated that no such certificate exists, having been "lost". So, the "factcheck.org" which is well known leftist garbage, should at least try to get a believable lie.

And last point, again, if this is so...why are MY tax dollars going to pay govt attorneys, to hide it, rather than simply put it out there.

[Affentitten]

Just wondering what and how the proof of ID works when you become a candidate in the first place? eg. Anyone in Australia who was going to run for office would have to offer up-front proof of citizenship from amongst a given series of documents. Did Obama not have to do that?

[abneo3sierra]

Just wondering what and how the proof of ID works when you become a candidate in the first place? eg. Anyone in Australia who was going to run for office would have to offer up-front proof of citizenship from amongst a given series of documents. Did Obama not have to do that?

Obama did not have to do any of that, which is the fuel that keeps the idiots on the other side of it going. And if he really has the magic water to put out the fire, I am 110% for it.

Not sure what has happened in this country recently, because most of the people in the high level positions, would not even pass the security clearance test I had to take, yet they are suddenly in control..a head of Dept of Revenue and IRS who was caught cheating on HIS taxes, a National Security Adviser with links to people that, if I had, they would yank away my clearance..etc etc.

McCain, however was dragged through a very thorough check, because he really was born outside of the USA..and what is hillarious, in an extremely hypocritical way, is that the same people calling "birthers" crazy, were the people pushing so hard to disqualify McCain, who spent his life serving his country,and was born on a US base in Central America. Hypcrisy seems to be the sport du jour of that crowd.

[Stalins Organ]

So they knew McCain was born outside the country and checked hard on him, and they knew OB was born inside the country and did not check hard on him, and that's supposedly hypocrisy?

What definition of hypocrisy is that??

[JonS]

drivel

ROFL. Good one, sparky.

You made a bet. You lost. You renegged. You have no honour.

[abneo3sierra]

So they knew McCain was born outside the country and checked hard on him' date= and they knew OB was born inside the country and did not check hard on him, and that's supposedly hypocrisy?

What definition of hypocrisy is that??

They did not KNOW Obama was born inside the country, thus, the entire, dumb argument of his birthplace. They actually had a valid reason to check, also, since his father was NOT a citizen, and his aunt in Kenya, told reporters she witnessed his birth there.so, a little bit of checking was in fact called for in both cases...the hypocrisy comes in, when the same, exact people, agreed with the one, and think the other one is crazy.

[Stalins Organ]

The governor of the state of Hawaii, a friend of Obama's, has publicly stated that no such certificate exists, having been "lost". So, the "factcheck.org" which is well known leftist garbage, should at least try to get a believable lie.

And last point, again, if this is so...why are MY tax dollars going to pay govt attorneys, to hide it, rather than simply put it out there.

Right - it's "leftist" so it is wrong.......:cool:

How about this one then? Perhaps the Governor was just wrong??

[abneo3sierra]

Right - it's "leftist" so it is wrong.......:cool:

How about this one then? Perhaps the Governor was just wrong??

The governor made his statement to the same newspaper in January of this year, while these are old 2008 stories when they were trying to "put out the fire" back around the election.And I do not think "leftist" = "wrong"..but I do recognize they are biased in the favor of Obama, in the same way that Faux news is biased the other way. Just that everyone knows it about Faux, while the "leftists" like to pretend their news is somehow more real and unbiased. So far, your side here has made multiple attempts to guess at my own beliefs,such as "leftist = wrong" etc..and all have been laughably wrong. I have, I believe, remained above it as much as possible, giving agreement on where you are right, while defending the ones I see different. But I am not so easy to "put in a box" as I share beliefs of both sides, and think it is ridiculous that people must adhere 100% to one or the other.

[abneo3sierra]

ROFL. Good one, sparky.

You made a bet. You lost. You renegged. You have no honour.

I did not lose, because you either are a civilian, or should be one, and like Obama, you have no proof to argue with.

However, I should thank you for reminding me of the famous picture,with it's comment on arguing on the internet. Thankfully for me, I actually have a beautiful wife to snuggle beside on these freezing "global warming" nights, instead of a rubber simulator. Good luck with that, dude.

Oh, and only 1 'g' in reneged.

[abneo3sierra]

Oh..seems they did find it..

http://sadhillnews.com/2011/01/19/hawaii-governor-unveils-obamas-birth-certificate

[JonS]

lol. More butterfly kisses?

[noxnoctum]

Probably I would suggest actually using your own mind, which I guarantee is smarter than the polls, and doing your own thinking my friend. Get your own facts rather than those spoon fed to the masses, and I guarantee you would change your mind.

Oh, and while I think Obama was born in the USA, I also am annoyed that he refuses to prove it, while before the election, a true American hero such as his opponent, had to prove his eligibility to close scrutiny due to being born on an American base.

It rankles me that Obama allows the stupid question of his eligibility to even continue when it SHOULD be easy to prove. Instead he offers up a short form birth certificate which is not even enough of an ID to get a passport issued by the government he himself is head of.

But he is also my Commander in Chief, so I refuse to believe he is ineligible...just wish he would shut up the debate, prove it,not too much to ask, and let us deal with more important things.

Obama has instead put millions$ to work on law teams to fight in courts, etc, to refuse to prove the issue.

And what "proxy empire" do you think America has?

This is quickly deteriorating into a flame war but I just gotta say I freaking hate it when someone (on either "side") accuses someone else of being "spoonfed". I'm not "spoonfed". I've lived in France for 6 years and experienced their socialized medicine, I've been in Morocco for 6 years and experienced being under a more or less benevolent Muslim autocratic regime, and when it comes to the US I've lived in San Francisco and now the deep south in probably the most conservative city in one of the most conservative states... Aiken, SC. Where are you getting info? From some secret communiqué that no one else knows about? I also like to do this thing called reading. It's very helpful.

Half the clowns complaining about "socialism" in these rallies can't even define what it is except that it's "like communism".

Maybe we should just close all public schools, dissolve the military, and eliminate the postal service, because those are all socialist things too. I don't want my tax dollars going to pay for some dumb little kid's education and I certainly don't want it going towards paying for people to deliver OTHER people's mail. And if I want an M16 I'll buy one myself, I don't want my money going towards buying other people M16s. Bunch of freeloaders all of them.

And while we're on it, we should definitely dissolve the FBI and DEA and actually all fire and police departments because I don't want my money going towards people spying on me, or solving OTHER people's murders. Let their families solve them. Let their families rescue them out of fires. It's my money, the government can KEEP THEIR HANDS OFF IT.

Then, finally, we will come out of this socialist nightmare and into a new glorious Utopian age of everyone for himself. It'll be just like the glory days of 3500B.C., where everyone paid for their own health insurance and for their own swords, and if you were dumb enough to light your house on fire, you died.

You are quite right though that my mind is a good bit smarter than any poll or news organization :cool:.

BTW listen to NPR > Fox/CNN/MSNBC

Oh and polls are based on facts in this case from a more or less neutral organization. It's just a shame that "facts have a well known liberal bias" to quote the great Stephen Colbert

I'm not some huge fan of Obama, he said in 2004 that he wanted to decriminalize cannabis and now we haven't heard a peep about it. All he did was tell the DEA to stop raiding MMJ stores in states where it's legalized for medical use. The DEA just ignores it anyways and Obama doesn't lift a finger cause he's too scared that he'll lose the moderates and risk the 2012 election. He also is not planning on letting the measures in the so-called "Patriot" Act expire either, which is a major major major negative for me. Habeus corpus is a joke while that piece of sh--legislation is still around.

Anyways with the Tea Party splitting the GOP and scaring moderates I'm pretty sure the 2012 election will be handed on a silver platter to Obama, so brace yourself for another 4 years with the Kenyan Muslim. Unless of course they nominate Ron, because a LOT of democrats would vote for him over Obama.

I'd vote for Ron Paul over Obama any day of the week if the GOP nominated him (they won't of course)... sure he's against socialized medicine but his positives outweigh his negatives by far in my book, not to mention he's probably one of the only politicians I've seen who actually sticks to his beliefs. I'm more of a libertarian than a leftist, and as far as I'm concerned the neo-conservative right wing can go screw itself.

[Affentitten]

Maybe we should just close all public schools, dissolve the military, and eliminate the postal service, because those are all socialist things too. I don't want my tax dollars going to pay for some dumb little kid's education and I certainly don't want it going towards paying for people to deliver OTHER people's mail. And if I want an M16 I'll buy one myself, I don't want my money going towards buying other people M16s. Bunch of freeloaders all of them.

And while we're on it, we should definitely dissolve the FBI and DEA and actually all fire and police departments because I don't want my money going towards people spying on me, or solving OTHER people's murders. Let their families solve them. Let their families rescue them out of fires. It's my money, the government can KEEP THEIR HANDS OFF IT.

And don't forget to ban the media. It's all biased lies anyway.