CM:BN Beta AAR/DAR Bois de Baugin US side

[Krilly]

i dont know whether im a lone voice on this issue, or whether im just in the wrong community - the game looks great, the tanks look great, the units, the action, the close up shots and the casualties - without wishing to cause any offense and i really dont mean to - who the **** cares if the field should be ploughed or not, whether the grass should be brown/green, green/brown for fks sake look at the pics - its awesome, just truly amazing

Amen!

People, try to suppress that inate urge to nickpick about everything. Have a drink, sit back and take in the beautifull screenshots of this game in Beta. Enjoy it like a pretty painting and let the hard working people behind it know what you like about it.

[BFCElvis]

i dont know whether im a lone voice on this issue, or whether im just in the wrong community - the game looks great, the tanks look great, the units, the action, the close up shots and the casualties - without wishing to cause any offense and i really dont mean to - who the **** cares if the field should be ploughed or not, whether the grass should be brown/green, green/brown for fks sake look at the pics - its awesome, just truly amazing

I pretty much agree with this as well with one tiny exception...From a battlefield tactical point of view a plowed offers a different tactical challenge that one at peak grow point. So whether or not the field is plowed is more than aesthetics.

As to why the field is plowed in July, JonS probably can give that answer in the other thread (then come back and let me know).

[para]

Looks great to me and wish i could grab it today. Looking ahead i'm really excited about the future module with British Paratroopers and Arnhem in it.

[sawomi]

It's not criticism but grog talk. It's a sign that the people like it.

[Michael Emrys]

It's not criticism but grog talk. It's a sign that the people like it.

Exactly. It would be hard to overestimate what perfectionists we are. And the fact that we pick nits is simply a sign that we regard this game, outstanding among many, as worthy of our attention.

That said, there is much to be said for tact. These people are artists...of a sort. And artists wear their hearts on their sleeves. They are offering you the children of their hearts and minds, and I don't think I am engaging in excessive hyperbole here. Some of you are parents. Imagine how you would feel if you were showing off pictures of your new born child and someone said, "Hmm, what an ugly kid. I hope she grows out of it."

Michael

[sawomi]

Don't worry. It's their 8th child. They successfully have raised up a prematurity like CMSF in face of the laughter of the folk folly. BFC have entered the pantheon of wargames developers. They can't be shaken by idle flubdub anymore.

[BFCElvis]

Don't worry. It's their 8th child. They successfully have raised up a prematurity like CMSF in face of the laughter of the folk folly. BFC have entered the pantheon of wargames developers. They can't be shaken by idle flubdub anymore.

I suspect you're correct. I read a comment somewhere else on the intertubes about the AAR not showing anything interesting or something like that and my first thought was of that Fawlty Towers scene. "Well, might I ask what you expected to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House, perhaps? The hanging gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically..."

War gamers are a tough crowd and BFC have been around them long enough to not let things get to them.

Personally I can't wait for you guys to see this thing first hand. It will be very hard for anyone to not be impressed.

In other news I will try to get something up today. Creating the screen shots is a very time consuming thing and real life is slowing me down today.

[Gryphonne]

I suspect you're correct. I read a comment somewhere else on the intertubes about the AAR not showing anything interesting or something like that and my first thought was of that Fawlty Towers scene. "Well, might I ask what you expected to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House, perhaps? The hanging gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically..."

War gamers are a tough crowd and BFC have been around them long enough to not let things get to them.

Personally I can't wait for you guys to see this thing first hand. It will be very hard for anyone to not be impressed.

In other news I will try to get something up today. Creating the screen shots is a very time consuming thing and real life is slowing me down today.

I think the real beauty of a game only shows when you see the entire thing in action, and the various underlying items interacting with eachother. Low resolution (no offense) screenshots showing some stuff here and there isn't that impressive to people. Besides, it doesn't show off any new features (QB purchase screen, UI, et cetera). This is why people (myself included) will always keep whining.

A picture speaks a thousand words sure, but a video speaks a thousand times a thousand; and experiencing the entire thing yourself.. well, you get the idea. People will continue whining until they get their grubby hands on the real thing. And even then there will be hardcore whiners (grogs) missing the Bren tripod or the FuG-16ZS on the FW-190F-8 and such

As a comment to the AAR, i'm really enjoying it and really appreciate the time you guys invested into it. But as a tip of some sorts, I would have advised creating a slightly smaller, tenser scenario with less troops and going more into detail about the changes from CMSF to CMBN, trying to explain how the atmosphere differs So not so much an AAR in terms of combat, but more in terms of features perhaps. Of course, you guys are also bound by an NDA which makes it more difficult too..

Oh well, maybe i'm just rambling

Regards,

Gryph

[BFCElvis]

I think the real beauty of a game only shows when you see the entire thing in action, and the various underlying items interacting with eachother. Low resolution (no offense) screenshots showing some stuff here and there isn't that impressive to people. Besides, it doesn't show off any new features (QB purchase screen, UI, et cetera). This is why people (myself included) will always keep whining.

A picture speaks a thousand words sure, but a video speaks a thousand times a thousand; and experiencing the entire thing yourself.. well, you get the idea. People will continue whining until they get their grubby hands on the real thing. And even then there will be hardcore whiners (grogs) missing the Bren tripod or the FuG-16ZS on the FW-190F-8 and such

As a comment to the AAR, i'm really enjoying it and really appreciate the time you guys invested into it. But as a tip of some sorts, I would have advised creating a slightly smaller, tenser scenario with less troops and going more into detail about the changes from CMSF to CMBN, trying to explain how the atmosphere differs So not so much an AAR in terms of combat, but more in terms of features perhaps. Of course, you guys are also bound by an NDA which makes it more difficult too..

Oh well, maybe i'm just rambling

Regards,

Gryph

Gryph, thank you very much. Just the kind of feedback I am looking for. I will try to include more examples that show the changes from one game to the other. I'm not sure what Jon is doing but my approach had not been to show the game engine in action as much as it is to tell the story of a battle and in doing so give people a chance to see what the game looks like and maybe a sense of how is feels while playing. I had thought the game mechanics and differences from previous CMx2 releases were better suited for a different release of information from BFC.

Those who read the famous CMBO Alpha AAR by Fionn and Moon may know what I mean. I don't really remember a ton of discussion about the engine itself and a "how to" of the game. I remember reading about a schreck team hidden in the woods with an ambush set up. Waiting for the next post and reading a halftrack rolling into the ambush. That type of thing is what I had in mind.

That being said, in the opening post to this thread I did invite anyone who is curious to see specific things to let me know and I'll see what I can do about getting them in within the limits of my NDA and the actual battle being fought.

[sawomi]

You both are doing very well and complement each other. The American side has the focal point on telling a good story and the German side brings the detailed analysis of the game engine. (...and jonS also has to justify his tactical decisions against a pack of teutonic schoolmasters, guarding every of his steps jealously... ;]

[Rambler]

We're actually looking into the Moiré fields now. It seems that video card hardware is the #1 issue. Some people are seeing no Moiré, others are seeing quite a lot. In fact, it was Elvis' screenshots that got a lot of us people without the effect scratching our heads. "How could I have missed that?" we thought. And the answer appears to be because some of us aren't experiencing it. Dunno what we can do about it, but we're definitely checking it out.

Steve

Thanks Steve. That's interesting. Does it seem to be related to the card manufacturer, or spec related? Hopefully y'all are able to get it sorted. Regardless, I can't wait to play it .

[BFCElvis]

Thanks Steve. That's interesting. Does it seem to be related to the card manufacturer, or spec related? Hopefully y'all are able to get it sorted. Regardless, I can't wait to play it .

Along those lines for anyone interested how mine compares to theirs...I am playing with an NVIDIA GeForce 9400GT 1GB.

[panzermartin]

*Could* be a driver issue. My visual experience with CMSF changes each time I update or roll back my Nvidia driver.

[Rocky Balboa]

Along those lines for anyone interested how mine compares to theirs...I am playing with an NVIDIA GeForce 9400GT 1GB.

My card is a GeForce 9500GT 1GB ... Thanks for the info ...

[Vark]

Can I piggy back on Gryponne's idea (Mistel like). How about a small combined arms scenario on a small varied terrain map, but play it with the old CM engine and the new one. The initial plans for both sides would be revealed but the different game engines would force the players to take quite different routes to achieve their original objectives, as the game progressed. The old engine could be modded to the hilt but it should be obvious the massive leaps forward in graphic capabilities of the new engine. Using this method would allow other 'leaps forward' to be revealed. Just a thought, CM2 v's CM1 and I cannot wait for the revisit to the Eastern front, well I will have to wait (probably 3 years if the existing development timetable is used as a predictor).

I second the though about clods of mud or dust spewing up from the clattering tracks it would increase the immersive effcet and pose a real problem for some units and I expect nay demand that when the Soviet diesels are simulated that they virtually create their own smoke screens when shifting up gears!

Final final point, if the sensitivity of the ballistics calculator has been boosted will troops gain any cover from hiding behind vehicles?

[Wicky]

Is the moiring pattern more a side effect from resizing and jpg compressing the screenshots?

Is the moire pattern visible on the original images before you resize them?

Along those lines for anyone interested how mine compares to theirs...I am playing with an NVIDIA GeForce 9400GT 1GB.

[vincere]

Thanks for all the screenshots, real nice to see 'the action' this way.

And good to see the scrap in the woods is bloody and chaotic like I would imagine it should.

Yeah, the woodland scrap is looking good. Some of the undergrowth had some plants that looked like ferns, my second favourite plant in woodlands (and I only have two faves). Can't wait to get involved in some of those and larger forests.

Can armour actually enter? If it can, considering how cmsf played, tanks are going to be a tad vulnerable in or near.

And really enjoying the AAR preview, thank you.

[SlowMotion]

I second the though about clods of mud or dust spewing up from the clattering tracks it would increase the immersive effcet and pose a real problem for some units

The dust effect is already there in CMSF. So using it in some situations (like a tank moving at full speed on dry field) in CM:BN probably wouldn't require huge changes.

[mjkerner]

I'm loving every little bit of screenshot/explanation that Elvis and JonS are giving us through the AAR's. But I really like Gryphone's suggestion:

"A picture speaks a thousand words sure, but a video speaks a thousand times a thousand...."

Is it possible to put up a video on youtube of the action, or would that violate the NDA? Or has BFC/Steve already said no to that because the graphics aren't finalized?

Just asking, not complaining one bit. After 40 years of wargaming, having ASL Live, so to speak, is making me want to hump someone's leg!:eek:

[Lanzfeld]

Those who read the famous CMBO Alpha AAR by Fionn and Moon may know what I mean. I don't really remember a ton of discussion about the engine itself and a "how to" of the game. I remember reading about a schreck team hidden in the woods with an ambush set up. Waiting for the next post and reading a halftrack rolling into the ambush. That type of thing is what I had in mind.

Great DAR Elvis and thanks. The best part of the Classic Alpha AAR was the turn by turn breakdown. I know you guys are not doing it that way but it was epic like that. Sold me forever.

[Michael Emrys]

...there will be hardcore whiners (grogs) missing the Bren tripod...

I heard a rumor that Bren tripods are in this time. Well, for the first module that is.

Michael

[sawomi]

@ Elvis,

you wrote in the second installment:

On my right flank 2nd squad safely reaches the small hill and determines that the view isn’t as perfect as I had hoped but it is still good enough. I’m going to move a radio up there at once. [...]

Could you please expand a little more about this, if allowed?

[BFCElvis]

@ Elvis,

you wrote in the second installment:

Could you please expand a little more about this, if allowed?

Sure. In the field with the flowers on my right side is a small patch of trees that is slightly elevated. My plan was to move an HQ unit there so he called call in artillery and mortar fire. Turned out that once I got there his LOS was not as good as I had hoped. All HQ units have radios. With that they can call in off board fire. If there is C2 established to on board mortars they can also call in indirect fire with them.

[Battlefront.com]

Just a clarification... MOST HQs have radios Since the version Jon and Elvis started playing I found a couple of spots where I allocated some HQs radios that shouldn't have got them. Also, technically, a Section HQ is a Headquarters and in CM:BN they rarely have communications equipment. Section HQs are most frequently found in Weapons Platoons where they act as leadership for (usually) two heavy weapons and report directly to the Platoon HQ.

Steve

[YankeeDog]

Interesting. I wonder if the range of period portable radio comms is going to be factored into the C2 modeling. Some sets were better than others...

For the U.S., at least, the range of the backpack-mounted "walkie-talkie" sets was good enough under that good conditions, at least, the radio should be able to communicate at the ranges you'd see on a typical CM map.

But the smaller "handy-talkie" sets had a much weaker signal and therefore shorter range. They also didn't penetrate intervening terrain as well. IIRC, under realistic field conditions, the effective range of the handy-talkie sets was only a few hundred meters.