NATO germany on the march (hilfe)

[Praetori]

I seriously need some help with the mission "Germany on the march" that came with the NATO module.

Although I don't consider myself a brilliant armchair general (with as many losses as wins and all CM titles under the belt) I don't consider myself a poor one either. But I'm dumbstruck by this mission.

I play as blue side (Germans) versus a mixed heavy force of Syrians. The scenario includes no arty or CAS for blue and there are no indirect weapons in the PzGren scenario arsenal.

My problem is that I get absolutely slaughtered by ATGMs from medium-ranges (800-1500m). All my forces fails to detect them and even when I do I can't seem to keep the hostile ATGM crews suppressed.

About an hour ago I poured the combined firepower of 2xPzGren plt (with their Marders) as well as half a company of tanks towards a hilltop, a gully and a house where ATGMs were intermittently being spotted. I got 4 IFVs and 3 MBTs destroyed within 2 minutes of my advance.

Now the thing is that going ahead with Inf gets me nowhere as the ATGMs hold the high ground and Syrian Inf and MGs kill off the PzGren without IFV support.

Creeping forward and opening up on all suspect spots in the terrain works but eats ammo and the 90 minute timer feels impossible at that rate.

There are no terrain features that enable my heavies to bypass the resistance and there's no smoke to screen suspected hostile fighting positions.

I'm also plagued by poor C2 which makes it very hard to coordinate fire and units under fire are easily rattled as a result.

I can't grasp how to successfully complete this mission without truly gruesome losses.

Helpful for any advice you guys can give me.

[phil stanbridge]

I'm playing this mission now. I'm about half hour in, and so far I've only detected an RPG team which I killed and a single enemy squad plus a sniper team (possibly anyway) who must be hidden in the woods on the far left. It's eerily quiet! I've managed to get a platoon including Marders over on the left side without casualties. I've got snipers and platoon leaders on over watch on the hills out of harms way scanning the whole battlefield. But I guessed I would run into something heavy along the way, it's just when and where. I haven't discovered the ATGM's yet. There's no way I am going to stick my armour on the line when I haven't been able to recon the area properly. Patience rewards you!

I moved nearly all of my company (first set of reinforcements) over to the left flank, and am trying to advance under cover of the trees. I am keeping most of my armour back, but for a single Leopard which is hull-down and a platoon of Marders up front, but not overly exposed in case I need urgent backup. I've also got two Wiesels nearby but until I know what I'm up against I'm not going to risk anything. The briefing specified less than 30% casualties so this is a slow and drawn out mission for the infantry.

[George MC]

Smoke is your friend

[Boche]

only virtual smoke though! cigarettes are bad kids!

but yeah, anywhere where you have an open field to traverse and IFVs in your power, smoke the other end and do like a light brigade and charge under its cover, hopefully you wont end up the same

[tyrspawn]

Be liberal with the marders - if you even remotely suspect an enemy in position, hose it down with HE fire. The marders have a generous store of ammo.

[Praetori]

only virtual smoke though! cigarettes are bad kids!

but yeah, anywhere where you have an open field to traverse and IFVs in your power, smoke the other end and do like a light brigade and charge under its cover, hopefully you wont end up the same

Well I have yet to find ANY smoke in this missions arsenal except for the dischargers on the IFVs and MBTs.

The Leopard A6 doesn't seem to carry a single smokeshell in the mission.

My normal tactic with such a large mechanized force would be to arty any positions where I DONT want the enemy to be located in, put a platoon on overwatch and just steamroll through the resistance with guns blazing. With no Arty then smoke would have come handy but no.

Putting ANY armored on overwatch just gets them killed and moving with speed doesn't fool a AT-14. :mad:

I tried using the Wiesel for pop-up bait but even in the rare cases where I actually spot a ATGM team at 1000+ meters I can't eliminate them. Oh how I miss the Javelin and Mk19.

[Lethaface]

Pop vehicle smoke while on the move and race your forces through. You'll probably loose a vehicle or 2, but not to many.

[Praetori]

Pop vehicle smoke while on the move and race your forces through. You'll probably loose a vehicle or 2, but not to many.

I tried a rush yesterday but it turns out that a "light brigade" charge across 1000+m isn't something the German armored forces can handle. I got 5 MBTs shot out and 6 IFVs.

2 of the Leopards first got mobility killed in full speed by a single guy with an RPG 7V from 420m at side angle :eek:

I'm considering lowering the difficulty to Veteran. Will that also make the AI worse?

[Praetori]

Well I could still use some help on this one.

90 minutes is just to short give the resistance.

[phil stanbridge]

Lowering the difficulty doesn't effect AI as far as I know - it just means some things take longer, like buddy aid, and artillery calls, plus communications is more important I think. I play on vet, and I'm still getting owned. I ended up quitting in frustration. Part of the problem is the enemy forces (and they are a sizeable bunch!) are well dug-in. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to tackle this mission, but I didn't get very far to be honest, without horrendous casualties in the end.

[Lethaface]

I tried a rush yesterday but it turns out that a "light brigade" charge across 1000+m isn't something the German armored forces can handle. I got 5 MBTs shot out and 6 IFVs.

2 of the Leopards first got mobility killed in full speed by a single guy with an RPG 7V from 420m at side angle :eek:

I'm considering lowering the difficulty to Veteran. Will that also make the AI worse?

Haven't tried this mission yet so I can't really give any proven advice. However it sounds like you were particularly unlucky in your charge. Especially that RPG7V at 420M. They never do that when my troops are holding the RPG

Perhaps a lead column of 2/3 Leopards with a normal movement will work better? Then as soon as they get into a position where they can lay a good smoke layer, max speed the other vehicles to their next waypoint.

[blow56]

This is so common to many mission creations - too little time (my personal bugbear - what is this obsession with limiting the scenario length?) and a tendency to try and balance events by giving the Blues less in the way of off-table assets. It works in certain circumstances because the AI for Red in maneuvre is usually not too bright, but when you have carefully dug in your Red forces, as here, then provide no air, arty or time for Blue you end up with an attacker's disaster. Fine if you don't mind losing 30 or 40 percent of your attack force - but in reality any commander who achieved that would be censured. I am tired of scenarios which blithely expect you to lose '1 or 2 tanks' as if it was nothing at all. My advice? Use the Kobyashi Maru Gambit and rebalance it yourself - add in a Blue mortar bty and whack the time up to 4 hours +. Then perform Point arty shoots at, hopefully, full ID'd targets and on Quick, or Short to spin out the mortar ammo. Use your one-shot mortar smoke for that essential moment.

[Frankster65]

This is so common to many mission creations - too little time (my personal bugbear - what is this obsession with limiting the scenario length?)

I couldn't agree more.

[Praetori]

After seeing THIS in another thread.....

Yeah, we have v1.31 coming up soon that fixes the C2 problem for German and Dutch troops, and IIRC a few Canadians here and there. Somehow, at some late point in development, a bit of data got squished up and a bunch of guys who should have radios (and once did) don't. Must have happened as we were wrapping things up because the testers would have noticed. They were also likely playing with games saved prior to the data munge.

Steve

I've decided to stop this mission until the patch is released.

I'll get back when I have further results (after 1.31 patch).

[BlackMoria]

*** Warning - may contain spoilers ***

I found the scenario very challenging but not hideously so. It sucked to have no artillery as even a several tubes of mortars would definitely would have helped but I made do with the amply firepower my forces had. I play RT and pause frequently to allow me to more precisely position my vehicles in hull down (I am very much a micro-manager in that regard), which explains my low vehicle casualties.

I finished up with a handful of KIA/WIA, 2 Marders KIA and about 5 vehicles mobility killed.

My base plan was to charge up the right flank after trying to develop the situation while awaiting my reinforcements.

In the course of the my cautious recon, a AT-14 opened up on a vehicle and by incredible luck, the warhead detonated in the trees just short of the Wiesel. The AT-14 was spotted as a result on a hill feature on the right flank and I hit the position with 2 tanks and a platoon of Marders, scrubbing down the position for several minutes.

As I worked my way up the left somewhat, I had a tank get hit (mobility killed only, thankfully) by either the same AT-14 or another one (it was positioned in a different area of same hill). Again, I massed firepower on the hill for several minutes.

At some point, some red armor showed up (seemed like a BTR MR company with a troop of tanks) but my tanks and anti-armour section made short work of them.

I assaulted up the right side with a troop of tanks and a company of marders, relying on my speed and distance to mitigate the Syrian AT threat, which worked because the entire force made it intact to the right hand objective. I saw a hell of a lot of RPGs hitting the ground during that charge so I don't know how RPGS opened up and only one position was spotted by my firebase but the amount of firepower I hit at location with either killed the personnel or they bugged out.

After that, it was just a matter of carefully moving my attack forces along the MSR from the right hand corner objective to the left hand corner objective. Even with no artillery, a troop of Leopard 2s and a company of Marders can put down a hideous amount of firepower on revealed positions so the ultimate result of that effort was two Marders killed (but few troop casualties) but the heavy defences along the MSR crumbled under the firepower of 120mm guns and 20mm cannons.

When I was nearly halfway (mid assault) along the MSR, I launched another tank troop and company of marder up the left flank. It seemed there was a hell of a lot of Syrians in the trees and folds in the ground and the advance was slower. I suffered most of my mobility kills in the left flank attack but no real casualties to speak of and my two forces linked up when the Total Victory screen came up.

I attribute my success to the following factors:

I obviously found the AT-14s without getting a vehicle killed and apparently dealt with them early enough. The right flank was principally defended by the Kornets so once they were out of the picture, my sprint up the right side of the map was basically unopposed by any significant force.

My charge of the right side was fast and presented crossing targets to the RPG gunners because despite a significant amount of RPGs impacting around my vehicles, none of them hit.

My sweep along the MSR allowed me to concentrate on a very narrow frontage with most of the enemy not facing that way. My sweep along the rear of the map got dicey only when I approached the left rear objective. My god, it seemed like a company plus of infantry was in that area because there was a carpet of red icons appearing once that battle began in ernest.

When the enemy gets spotted, don't swat him - bite his frigging head off. By that, I mean hit him with everything you can bear on him. Most enemy positions will crumble after a salvo or two of troop of Leopards and a company of Marders. Again, I play RT with frequently hitting the pause to micromanage direct fire allocations, so there were times a Syrian squad or AT postion would literally get hit with 4 x 120mm HEAT rounds and 12 x 20mm cannon salvos in the space of 15 seconds. Bye bye baby... :eek:

In short, mass your fires, move boldly, decisively and quickly from fire position to fire position and you will prevail.

[Erwin]

Thanks for the interesting AAR.

I prefer the minute turns, partially cos I like to replay aspects of the battle, but also it's quicker to play a scenario (leastways when I played RL, it seemed to take forever with the micromanagement, and I was always missing something important in another area of the battlefield).

Anyone been successful or have suggestions re playing this scenario WEGO?

[Bartokomus]

This is so common to many mission creations - too little time (my personal bugbear - what is this obsession with limiting the scenario length?) and a tendency to try and balance events by giving the Blues less in the way of off-table assets. It works in certain circumstances because the AI for Red in maneuvre is usually not too bright, but when you have carefully dug in your Red forces, as here, then provide no air, arty or time for Blue you end up with an attacker's disaster. Fine if you don't mind losing 30 or 40 percent of your attack force - but in reality any commander who achieved that would be censured. I am tired of scenarios which blithely expect you to lose '1 or 2 tanks' as if it was nothing at all.

Well said; this (to me) is the heart of the problem with the entire theater and time CM:SF represents. In order to create any sembelance of parity in the battles/campaigns, massive elements of US/NATO forces are contrived to be unavailable, time is always overwhelmingly against us, in addition to unending supply/reinforcement problems plaguing what you do have. I very much understand why scenario designers need to do this, since the outcome ingame would be an unbroken string of Total Victories; for such an improved product which i truly enjoy, CM: SF seems so much more artificial than CM.

I would only add that I am very eagerly looking fwd to Normandy.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Having unlimited time would make the AI plans unpractical, as you could just wait until all AI traps had been released before starting your attack.

With a limited timespan, the AI has a decent chance to catch you in a certain position.

Only when AI plans would work on triggers you could losen up the time schedule

[finalcut]

Too bad real commanders do not have a big slider bar to adjust the affectiveness of the enemy. . I am just about to start this mission,So I will get back to you soon if I see anything that works well.

[Praetori]

I've once again given this beast a go.

Warning SPOILERS:

I quickly decided to move up with recon elements to the left flank where there's a large hill dominating the terrain. The forward elements prepared the ground for battalion HQ and COY HQ elements scheduled to arrive later (Those hills make excellent LOS C2 possible which I will get back to later).

The first company quickly followed behind the main recon thrust and unloaded the infantry cargo behind the left flank ridgeline. One recon team took position on the far right flank and searched the buildings there after falling back to their MG equipped vehicle.

The first Leo platoon sneaked into firing positions with overwatch over the entire right flank (just left of the hill closest to the staging area).

Shortly after all hell broke loose as a company+ sized force of Syrian mech/Armored moved down along the MSR and got picked off by the Leopards and two Weisels for 0 NATO losses. ATGMs and RPGs started flying but did nothing more than kick up dust in front of the armored firing positions.

Meanwhile the Infantry on the left flank had started their advance across the rugged terrain and was taking sporadic fire from unknown hostile positions in the treeline.

Battalion HQ and COY HQs had now entered the field and grouped on various high grounds (including the large hill on the extreme left flank). The LOS C2 enabled good comms within the battalion and hostile targets started to become identified which meant fire was starting to take its toll on the defenders.

The rest of the battalion soon followed and filled in the gaps in the center while the last company and the bulk of the tanks formed up for an attack at the center right flank towards the hill where the ATGMs were spotted (next to the MSR).

About 40 minutes into the fight the attack on the left flank stalled due to large amounts of RPGs flying about and Marders hiding to avoid them (thus little support for the poor Infantry).

This however changed when the first armored platoon was shifted to that flank via the small forest in the center (which kept them out of harms way from the larger ATGMs).

I've taken 2 WIA so far and 1 Wolf destroyed (on the right flank) and I'm now confident enough to start applying some real pressure on the defenders.

If my plan succeeds I will get a two pronged attack (from the far left flank with Infantry, and along the MSR with the bulk of the armor).

[Euri]

Smoke is your friend

Exactly....

The extract is from the following Newsweek article...

http://www.newsweek.com/2011/01/03/can-you-build-a-better-brain.html

"With apologies to the political-correctness police, nicotine enhances attention—that key driver of neuroplasticity—and cognitive performance in both smokers and nonsmokers, scientists at the National Institute on Drug Abuse reported in a 2010 analysis of 41 double-blind, placebo-controlled studies. Nicotine, they found, has “significant positive effects” on fine motor skills, the accuracy of short-term memory, some forms of attention, and working memory, among other basic cognitive skills. The improvements “likely represent true performance enhancement” and “beneficial cognitive effects.” The reason is that nicotine binds to the brain receptors for the neurotransmitter acetylcholine that are central players in cortical circuits."

[Perforator]

I wish I found this thread before starting the mission. Tried moving down the dirt road on the right flank before any reinforcements arrived and my 2 lead vehicles were promptly obliterated. Restarted the mission and quickly tried to race across the rough ground on the left flank and was caught in devastating crossfire coming from the trees and somewhere on the far right. I'll retry this mission again now that I have read all your helpfull comments.

[SelfLoadingRifle]

What is the German for "some of my best friends are Syrian"?

Could come in handy for this scenario:D

SLR

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Old hand at CM here, but new to CMSF.....This battle nearly put me off!

 

The lack of artillery support is, frankly, ridiculous (the Germans pretty much invented mechanized artillery) and the fact that the ATGM teams have no ATGMs whatsoever also really gives me the hump.....Shonky scenario, very poor effort!

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I now understand this scenario.....The author should probably delete half the tanks, APCs and most of the LMGs too:  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11420627/German-army-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-training.html