CM:N on Steam?

[~Viajero]

CM:N on steam seems to only make sense if there was no cost or significant revenue loss downside for BFC.

As some of you have pointed out and without knowing the actual Steam usual cut and arrangements it is prolly not too far of a stretch to suspect those current arrangements would make it unnatractive plus there would be no guarantee of effective promotion in the platform, which would be the main value proposition. From that standpoint the budget that would eventually be consumed by Steam is maybe better off put to good use in something else.

Now this could be turned around in eventual dealings with Steam: "Hey guys, your platform will probably not promote an inch further our product so we are not big fans... but if you let us in at virtually no cost and having full control on the price then we would be more than happy to oblige", kind of thing. No downside in exchange for a "small" potential of "some" promotion, just would seem fair. Another option to consider would be to offer Steam a cut of some kind conditioned to a certain minimum level of sales per given time period etc through Steam (said level decided by BFC based on BFC own economics and knowledge of tehir product life cycle etc), either in a linear way, step changes or a combination etc.

Obviously Steam may probably still see no value in this deal either, but one of the pillars of steam is based on building momentum, positive network externalites and scale (the more games they can offer in their libraries the more players that may join and/or the longer a current steam user will stay loyal ---> the more players in, the more game developer/publishers taht may be interested in using Steam ---> reinforcing cycle) so you never know until you ask.

No harm in at least trying no? The answer will probably be a big fat NO, but the most BFC can loose is a couple hours.

PS: for what is worth I am also a part time FPS, PS3, SC2, L4D2 nutcase that happens to love the CM series above all, ahem... many things.

[Erwin]

Please NO STEAM. I hate having to install some other program that's trying to sell me some other service just to run a game I own... TOTAL WAR NAPOLEON for example.

[born2lose]

Please NO STEAM. I hate having to install some other program that's trying to sell me some other service just to run a game I own... TOTAL WAR NAPOLEON for example.

I love Steam tbh I have had it since HL2 was released and have over 50 games on it now, I don't quite understand what your saying Erwin Steam doesnt try to sell you another service to run your Game, Steam is a free download you could say its just another type of DRM.

And I too at 40years old am a member of that juvinile twitch game loving FPS playing crowd with my current favouite being BF2 bad company and I worked out the other day I have now been playing games on a computer for nearly 27 years now that does make me feel old.

[Battlefront.com]

CM:N on steam seems to only make sense if there was no cost or significant revenue loss downside for BFC.

Bingo

As some of you have pointed out and without knowing the actual Steam usual cut and arrangements it is prolly not too far of a stretch to suspect those current arrangements would make it unnatractive plus there would be no guarantee of effective promotion in the platform, which would be the main value proposition.

Yes. Unlike the average Steam user, we have seen contracts. They aren't to our liking. Therefore we aren't interested in being carried by Steam.

The problem with a lot of the comments here is there is an assumption that going with Steam would result in a net positive effect. Broader exposure, more diverse customer base, etc. etc. Guys... we're very clever game publishers. We've been doing this for 11 years and have outlived more companies than I can count. Don't you think we would have thought of these rather obvious possible positives? Seriously! So I think it would be wise to assume that we have:

1. Thought of all angles, including ones not mentioned here.

2. Seen the contract and assessed how the angles and the contract might work in our favor.

3. Taken into consideration things we've observed/read about how Steam works.

4. Still concluded that Steam isn't likely to result in a net positive outcome for us.

We will not be on Steam unless the equation changes so that we perceive a good chance of a net positive outcome. Customer requests for being on Steam, or against Steam, have zero impact on the equation. Therefore, asking us to be on Steam or to stay off Steam won't change or preserve the status quo.

Steve

[~Viajero]

Customer requests for being on Steam, or against Steam, have zero impact on the equation. Therefore, asking us to be on Steam or to stay off Steam won't change or preserve the status quo.

Steve

Of course, do as you please. Your business, your decissions. It is a fun and interesting topic though, so bear with us!

Just as a matter of curiosity: You speak of the Steam "contract" terms and conditions as if they were set in stone and non negotiable? Is that really so? No room to counter propose? I mean, I would suspect them Steamrolling (pun intended) where possible, but I would be surprised if it is really zero tolerance.

PS: if we can not see the new CM:N forum or have any more bones we have to spend our time talking about "alternative" stuff, haven´t we!

[MeatEtr]

Of course, do as you please. Your business, your decissions. It is a fun and interesting topic though, so bear with us!

Just as a matter of curiosity: You speak of the Steam "contract" terms and conditions as if they were set in stone and non negotiable? Is that really so? No room to counter propose? I mean, I would suspect them Steamrolling (pun intended) where possible, but I would be surprised if it is really zero tolerance.

I'd be willing to bet they're not allowed to discuss the details of it in an open forum.

But oh well, pointless chit-chat never hurt anyone.

[~Viajero]

But oh well, pointless chit-chat never hurt anyone.

No harm in at least trying! Although I'd doubt Steam's stance on a set of T&C's qualifies as confidential or legally undisclosable. The T&C's details themselves obviously might, not so a given party's stance on discussing them or not. BFC is making his already very clear.

Other than that, welcome to the club brother!

[Erwin]

"...we're very clever game publishers. We've been doing this for 11 years and have outlived more companies than I can count."

Very true and congratulations! So many promising companies (KOIOS, Minuteman, SSG etc) that addressed our niche wargame market have fallen. I cannot think of a single other company today producing our genre of game at your level of quality.

But plz let us be the poor schmucks who run beside your triumphal chariot procession whispering in your ears "All glory is fleeting" lest arrogance brings about etc.

Peace yo...

[Erwin]

Oh, but could you do something to make the repository less clunky? (Of course not until after Afghanistan, Nato, CM:N etc are released heh...) It has to be detrimental to the spread of the CM2 game that there is such a small quantity of good scenarios and mods compared to CM1.

[Wengart]

Although I understand that Steam isn't beneficial to BF.C. I would like to point out that Tripwire Interactive (Red Orchestra, Killing Floor) and Introversion (DEFCON, Darwinia, Uplink) sell their games through Steam, and in Introversions case have been saved from bankruptcy through steam sales.

See, Steam isn't all bad.

[Mord]

It has to be detrimental to the spread of the CM2 game that there is such a small quantity of good scenarios and mods compared to CM1.

I'd say mod wise, the reason is that it's harder to actually mod this time around, and modern vehicles don't lend themselves to the seemingly endless paint scheme variations like say WWII (especially German) tanks and such. Not to mention, out of the box the textures are at a much higher quality than of old.

I've seen the argument OTHER places saying the lack of a zillion scenarios proves CMX2 is lacking compared to CMX1 (not saying you are saying that)...and in truth, we do have less scenarios after the same amount of time passed...However, unlike in CMX1 it takes much more thought, skill and planning to create a scenario in CMSF than say CMBB. Which in turn means that for the most part, we are getting less flotsam. In CMX1 I could sit down, whip up a map in three seconds and add some flags, spend ten minutes picking forces, plop them on a map and then put it on the net...didn't mean it was gonna be any good though...hence you have tons and tons of CMX1 scenarios but not nearly the same quality we are seeing now. Also, Shock Force suffers from not being WWII, which is the Golden Fleece around here...we don't end up with much historical reference to lend itself to historical and semi historical scenarios (WWII is nearly endless compared to Iraq and Afghanistan). Once we are back in familiar surroundings you'll see much more content on all fronts, mod and scenario.

Regardless though, I am very happy with the level and skill of the content the community has put forth in CMSF...I still think there's plenty more to come...All these guys are getting more and more skilled in their particular niches. It's quality over quantity this time around.

Mord.

[Erwin]

I understand your point, Mord. But, regardless of the fact that there may be close to 100x more CM1 scenarios available, I find the % of good scenarios in CMSF seems smaller than in CM1. It's a delightful surprise when I find a really good CMSF scenario that doesn't feel cookie cutter.

[Dietrich]

I reckon the percentage of good scenarios will be greater with CM:N, both because of the greater interest in CM:N and because of the greater experience with the CMx2 editor since its creation. However, many who end up designing scenarios for CM:N (the 3rd-party folks, that is) will find the learning curve fairly steep, what with the little if any experience they have with the CMx2 editor, since many (if not most) of them skipped over CM:SF.

[Erwin]

I honestly hope you turn out to be correct.

[MeatEtr]

Speaking of which, whats the word on whether the Proving Grounds site(scenarios/Ops in beta) and the Scenario Depot II site(scenarios/Ops tested/tweaked) will support the new CMN? I'd be willing to bet the answer will be absolutely yes. This kind of phasing-in of scenarios is what the CMSF scenarios sometimes lacked.

You out there GJK?

[Battlefront.com]

Confusing quantity with quality would, of course, be a mistake. In previous debates about the quantity of CMx1 stuff vs. CM:SF the same points come up again and again:

1. CMx1 is a far more simplistic game and therefore the skill threshold for making scenarios or mods is a lot lower than it is for CMx2.

2. Because of the lower skill threshold a huge chunk of CMx1 stuff is just utter crap. Kinda like how unmoderated Forums tend to have a lot more junk posts than moderated ones.

3. There is more CM:SF stuff available to play than any sane person has time to play. Therefore, what good is having 100x more stuff that one doesn't have time for?

4. CMx1 is historical and WW2 based. This lends itself to scenario making more so than a fictional modern setting simply because the creativity threshold is lower. Much, much easier to pick up a book and try to recreate a battle than it is to sit down with a blank slate and make up one purely from imagination.

5. I think about 90% of all CMBO scenarios involve Wittmann Seriously though, there are tons and tons of scenarios for CMx1 that are simply different interpretations of the same subject matter. There is a competitive drive for some people to do a particular battle better than someone else, even though it's been done dozens of times already. With CM:SF there are no historical battles to base scenarios on, therefore this sort of "pile on" thing doesn't happen. There have been, however, quite a lot of duplicative attempts to simulate OIF battles. Which isn't surprising.

In the end it only matters if there is enough stuff to keep an avid player occupied with quality stuff to play. Clearly Shock Force has more stuff out there, of sufficient quality, to do that. Therefore, who cares what the total count is? We certainly don't.

Back to the Steam thing...

Yes, some game companies have been "saved" by Steam. But note that these are game companies that were previously relying upon retail sales. Since retail sales have always been difficult to secure (worse now than ever) it's clearly beneficial for such companies to move away from retail. We did 11 years ago before anybody else did. And there's the difference... we already have the infrastructure and knowhow to get the sales we need on our own. We don't need to give a huge chunk of our revenue and lose control of our destiny just to survive. And that's what Steam would require of us.

As for negotiating with Steam... yeah right I suppose if we were ID or EA they might be interested in negotiating, but we aren't and they aren't.

Again, we have all the inside information and long experience with such things. Our conclusion is Steam isn't a good fit for us. At least until something significant changes. Therefore, we won't be going with them. This is not arrogance, this is simply being smart.

Steve

[umlaut]

Speaking of which, whats the word on whether the Proving Grounds site(scenarios/Ops in beta) and the Scenario Depot II site(scenarios/Ops tested/tweaked) will support the new CMN? I'd be willing to bet the answer will be absolutely yes. This kind of phasing-in of scenarios is what the CMSF scenarios sometimes lacked.

You out there GJK?

Here´s your answer. I remember reading it a few months back and digged it out:

Quote:Originally posted by: Bannon DC:

Hey Gary --

How's it going? I hope all is well.

What are your thoughts on hosting the upcoming CM2 Normandy scenarios?

Does anyone know how big a typical CM2 version scenario is?

Cheers,

Bannon

Hey Bannon, long time - I'm making it with some help, amen. Hope you're doing well.

Unfortunately, I don't see any plans for modifying either of the sites to accomodate CMx2 stuff - not in the near future at least. I'm working every possible hour that I can (at work now) and trying to stabilize for me things personally. I don't even have internet access or a computer set up where I'm staying, so I haven't been playing and as many of probably noticed, I'm rather scarce around here and have been for some time. I really, really do miss some good wargaming though and I won't stray too far away - it is my best intentions to get things worked out and get myself to a point to where I can take the time to relax and enjoy some good gaming.

Thanks for your message!

[MeatEtr]

2. Because of the lower skill threshold a huge chunk of CMx1 stuff is just utter crap. Kinda like how unmoderated Forums tend to have a lot more junk posts than moderated ones.

Steve

I hope your not referring to my legendary muffler post, that was pure genius. And recently I just so happen to grace the Peng thread once again with my presence. This time Techno Viking makes an appearance, you'll have to go take a peek to find out for yourself.

[LeBlaque]

Again, we have all the inside information and long experience with such things. Our conclusion is Steam isn't a good fit for us. At least until something significant changes. Therefore, we won't be going with them. This is not arrogance, this is simply being smart.

Steve

Haven't posted in awhile-- waiting for CM:N. However, this caught my attention as I'd love to see the product better publicized. Any thoughts with respect to putting CM:N on Stardock's Impulse? I think they are a company more aligned with your philosophy and I don't think they'd gouge you to the same level of Steam....

[Erwin]

Why be forced to join yet another club that wants information from us that (regardless of their policy today) they may sell to yet another spammer in the future?

STEAM etc seem made for online play where you want to find oppos, teams etc.

PS: I appreciate it's frustrating for BFC, but from what I can see, CM1 is still way more popular than CM2. CM2 is a terrific game. But, I find myself burning out after every 2 or 3 months CMSF play and have to return to the "mothership "CM1 for 6 months or so to recharge.

That passion and loyalty could be thought of as a very good thing if exploited appropriately.

[Battlefront.com]

CMx1 certainly has more cumulative customers than CM:SF, partly because WW2 is the most popular wargaming setting and partly because the three CMx1 games appealed to different splinter groups within the wargaming community. Lots of people only purchased 1 or 2 of the CMx1 games and had no interest in the other 1 or 2. CM:SF, on the other hand, appeals largely to one significant, though smaller, sized segment of the wargaming audience. We knew that when we decided to go modern and it's not discouraging to us at all. On the contrary, we are nearly ready to start work on CM:SF 2 now that NATO is almost done.

As for which game is more popular or not... it's tempest in a teapot. In terms of % of customers still playing, I bet CM:SF is by far greater than any individual CMx1 game. While the hardcore wargamers may still be playing 10 year old games, I can guarantee you that is not true of the more casual gamers. Casual wargamers have always been, and hopefully will always be, our majority customer base. I'd be surprised if 1 in 50 CMx1 customers are still playing. I'm sure CM:SF is a far better ratio.

And in the end, who cares? CM:SF has been a big success for us. CMx1 was also a big success for us. From our perspective as long a we get a good return on our investment we're happy. And we're quite happy

Steve

[SlapHappy]

Steve

Will CMSF:2 incorporate a new or heavily modified engine? By referring to it as "2", it kind of implies that it will.

Or I guess it could just mean that the "modern" Combat Mission has moved on to another theater of war.

[Chad Harrison]

PS: I appreciate it's frustrating for BFC, but from what I can see, CM1 is still way more popular than CM2. CM2 is a terrific game. But, I find myself burning out after every 2 or 3 months CMSF play and have to return to the "mothership "CM1 for 6 months or so to recharge.

That passion and loyalty could be thought of as a very good thing if exploited appropriately.

I believe that this is almost entire because of setting, not CMx2 in and of itself. I can tell you that having played both extensively, I can not go back to CMx1 games. I tried just the other week. I cant do it anymore. Yes there are still some things being worked out in CMx2 games, but the pros over CMx1 far, far outweigh the cons - in my opinion atleast.

I loved CMx1 in their time. Once Normandy hits, I dont think I will ever touch a CMx1 game again - no reason too.

[MeatEtr]

I believe that this is almost entire because of setting, not CMx2 in and of itself. I can tell you that having played both extensively, I can not go back to CMx1 games. I tried just the other week. I cant do it anymore. Yes there are still some things being worked out in CMx2 games, but the pros over CMx1 far, far outweigh the cons - in my opinion atleast.

I loved CMx1 in their time. Once Normandy hits, I dont think I will ever touch a CMx1 game again - no reason too.

I just went back to CMBB about a month ago to play the new Diversity Tourney and loving it again. I've played both extensively too, so needed the setting change from about two years of CMSF. But I think most played CMAK modded for the CMBO setting with the patch updates rather than the Africa theatre. So then in this sense CMN will be the true death of CMBO/CMAK.

But us East Front lovers sure won't let go of CMBB until we get the CMx2 family. So I consider the launch of CMN the partial death of CMx1.

[Chad Harrison]

But us East Front lovers sure won't let go of CMBB until we get the CMx2 family. So I consider the launch of CMN the partial death of CMx1.

I think that that just goes to show what Steve has been talking about: I am all about the Western Front, but the Eastern Front and Africa/Mediterrian do nothing for me. I still bought and played CM:BB and CM:AK, but it was just for giggles. I lived and breathed CM:BO though. Everyone has their taste.

Soooooo . . . speaking of taste. When do we get to taste Normandy? Enough of this Steam garbage, lets get some bones rolling!