Technology in WW2

[Stalins Organ]

Yep - looking through some of the Fischer-Tropsch archive documents on fuses, AA directors, radar, etc. tho, they do not identify a lot of new tech except 1 AA director that was linked to radar for DD's and CL's (10mb pdf, see page 47 of the report - Dentan Hoiban) - but nothing about it actually being deployed.

As for the weapons - possibly they put a 120mm rocket launcher on the ship? It is only mentioned on the web as being used on BB's & CV's tho. I haven't seen any other new tech mentioned that might be misquoted.

the homing torpedoes - nothing on them either - as I mentioned before the only known Jap homing torpedoes weer electric, not oxygen, and were for use in submarines. The various links for "Long Lances" already provided note that they were often shot off under air attack as the concentrated oxygen and large warhead could do a lot of damage to a ship if they exploded in their tubes!

[JonS]

No, fair play to John. He's convinced me that the Japanese had an active and successful programme that developed what we would consider to be VT fuzes. Well done Japan, and well done John.

You know, they actually wouldn't have had to have hidden their R&D and manufacturing facilities all that well to keep it secret from the Allied soldiers and researchers crawling all over Nippon with absolute access to anything that took their interest. In fact, under those circumstances probably the best way to hide their successful VT programme would have been to 'hide' it in plain sight.

I recently came across an excellent example from recent history of hiding something in plain sight. Who remembers this speech from early in Bush's first term? I certainly didn't, but there it all is, laid right out in the open. Foreign wars, domestic terrorism, the whole nine yards. All clearly signalled to those who could hear the dog whistle, but meaningless to everyone else - except in hindsight.

[dieseltaylor]

The Japanese Type 22 radar, also known as Mark 2 Model 2, saw wide operational use in the war, being installed on surface ships and submarines. Though nominally a surface search radar, it was also used for air search and for fire control. It was based on an early Japanese version of the cavity magnetron, the M-312, used 40 vacuum tubes, and had limited power. Quality control during production was a serious problem: Of the first sixy sets built, only about six actually worked. The chief difficulty was achieving adequate precision in machining the oddly-shaped cavities in the M-312 magnetron to achieve the precise frequency required to match the magnetron with the M-60 vacuum tube used in the receiver. The first set was tested in October 1941 and a pre-production version called the Model 103 was experimentally shipped on Hyuga just before the battle of Midway. With its dual steerable horn, it was nicknamed "Bluefin Tuna" or "Horse Mackerel." Mass production was authorized by the end of 1942 but no materials were allocated. One of the Army technicians on the project proceeded to acquire materials through the black market, which led to some of the accountants on the project being arrested and held by the police for a month. Its first operational triumph was allowing the evacuation flotilla for Kiska to navigate under cover of heavy fog. Because of continuing difficulty matching components, production never came close to the target of 150 sets a month.

An improved version, the Mod 1, with a more stable heterodyne receiver, was rushed to the fleet in time for the Battle of the Philippine Sea. Another version, the 22-Kai-3, was designed for submarines and differed in having a pulse repetition rate of 600 Hz.

Thanks for the link Stalin

The Yahagi had a radar that could be used for fire control so perhaps this was what Hara was suggesting made for use effectively of timed fuses . Incidentally at the top of page 69 of the Fischer reports one radar system as weighing 3,500 tons, approximately. Which seems excessive and rather detracts from ones faith in the report - I mean honestly how can they say approximately

Given the education of the time in radars I could well understand that 99.998% of the IJN would only have the vaguest idea what was actually happening with radars and how it interacted with FCS. ANd given translation and cultural differences I could quite easily accept a misunderstanding as being the cause of this VT claim.

[Stalins Organ]

Well given the inherent tolerances in any manufacturing process, and given direction may have been 1-2 lb more or less than 3500 tons.....so it would be imprecise to say it was 3500 tons exactly

And given it was installed on destroyers (apparently)....they must have had some big destroyers!!:eek:

And must have made Nagato a bit top heavy given several fitted to her bridge column.....:cool:

I am surprise no one (cough) has suggested that this is more proof that the dismissal of an Japanese VT fuses in these reports shows that they existed!

[John Kettler]

dieseltaylor,

There's also the paragraph I cited from that Technical Innovations case study on prox fuze matters, and that study was based on the following book, which very much seems to working from a separate set of sources: They Never Knew What Hit Them – The Story of the Best Kept Secret of World War II, Ralph H. Baldwin, Reynier Press, 1999 Hara's book is indeed listed in Spurr, but there are several other books which might also figure in, listed in Spurr's bibliography. I, though, haven't read either the Baldwin book or most of the others in that bibliography, and the ones in Japanese are simply hopeless for me. Again, I most profoundly wish Spurr had footnoted his remarkable book! One that does look promising from Spurr's biblio is Ito's THE END OF THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE NAVY, translated 1961 by Kuroda and Pineau, the latter being Hara's coauthor on JAPANESE DESTROYER CAPTAIN.

As for the radar fitted to the Yahagi, JAPANESE CRUISERS OF THE PACIFIC WAR, a reference tome by Lacroix and Wells, lists no apparent antiaircraft gunfire control radar per se. There's an air search radar, Type 13, another such, Type 21 and the Type 22 Mod 4S search radar, which can indeed be used for surface gunfire control, but no document I've looked at, or that my brother's aware of, depicts a dedicated gunfire control radar for antiair warfare on the Yahagi. Therefore, gunfire control, except possibly vs. torpedo bombers, must've been based on optical directors.

Regards,

John Kettler

[dieseltaylor]

Yes I think the point is that it is not a radar controlled gun as we in the West would know it. I am suggesting that in a rudimentary way the radar was used to provide directional /height information for the guns. With timed fuses then the battery could fire in cloud or poor visibility. Bearing in mind the renown Japanese secrecy [let alone of the compleaxities and numerous problems with radar] I could easily suggest that Hara was aware that a combination of radar/fuses and AA guns was being used in some way. I can also concieve that with an interpreter who was not conversant with VT or radar controlled guns that a misunderstanding could creep in. This seems much more likely than the nascent Japanese electronics industry could churn out VT. Or for that matter make a consistently reliable fuse even for testing. However to have the improbability of manufacturing capability together with the improbability of the entire program being hidden apart from Hara' leak is taking everything too far.

[costard]

No, fair play to John. He's convinced me that the Japanese had an active and successful programme that developed what we would consider to be VT fuzes. Well done Japan, and well done John.

You know, they actually wouldn't have had to have hidden their R&D and manufacturing facilities all that well to keep it secret from the Allied soldiers and researchers crawling all over Nippon with absolute access to anything that took their interest. In fact, under those circumstances probably the best way to hide their successful VT programme would have been to 'hide' it in plain sight.

I recently came across an excellent example from recent history of hiding something in plain sight. Who remembers this speech from early in Bush's first term? I certainly didn't, but there it all is, laid right out in the open. Foreign wars, domestic terrorism, the whole nine yards. All clearly signalled to those who could hear the dog whistle, but meaningless to everyone else - except in hindsight.

hijack!

Jon, every month my OS updates and downloads a "Malicious Software Removal Tool". Should I be worried?

[JonS]

Jon, every month my OS updates and downloads a "Malicious Software Removal Tool". Should I be worried?

No. And yes.

No because the MSRT actually does a good job.

Yes because the the automated functions of MSRT are being used to soften you up for losing control over your own computer. Soon, stuff like this will be done automatically, and mandatorily - you won't be able to stop it since it'll be a core part of the OS. Microsoft tried to do this a few years ago when they put the idea out there that Internet Explorer was somehow integral to the Windows kernal. This is also, in good part, why SCO were so keen to get control over the Linux kernal - Microsoft and Apple are on board with the scheme of course (they're the ones, after all, who're creating the 'malicious' software that the MSRT 'removes) but total control of your desktop doesn't work so well if you aren't using an 'approved' OS.

[Affentitten]

Who are you and what have you done with JonS?

[Michael Emrys]

And how much will you charge to keep him there?

Michael

[dieseltaylor]

I'll chip in some dosh

: )

[John Kettler]

Just got some data independent of Hara which confirms the Japanese had proximity fuzed shells. Source is Ralph B. Baldwin's THE DEADLY FUZE, written in 1980 where on page 50 he says (Fair Use) "...the Japanese did develop a proximity fuze for shells and successfully dropped one (proximity fuzed bomb, J.K.) on Saipan." On page 64 he amplifies his remarks by stating that the bomb weighed 1700 lbs., fuzed properly at 35 feet height of burst and destroyed or damaged scores of B-29s. He further states (Fair use)

"The Japanese navy ordered twenty thousand fuzes to be manufactured. Twelve thousand were eventually produced. Many were fitted to bombs and stored secretly on Kyushu for the expected invasion."

So, a primary source, scientist Ralph Baldwin, who worked in the very same Section T under the brilliant Merle Tuve that developed the VT fuze for shells, has told us not only that the Japanese did have proximity fuzed shells but also produced militarily significant numbers of what appears to be a proximity fuze with multiple applications. Am hoping to get more detail when his second book, THEY NEVER KNEW WHAT HIT 'EM, published in 1999, when much more information was available thanks to declassification, arrives on Inter-Library Loan.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JonS]

bomb != shell

[Stalins Organ]

The prox fuse for bombs is mentioned in the allied reports on technology referenced a long way back in this thread, and would not be any use whatsoever in a n artillery shell - being far too large and fragile - it depended upon reflected light, so included a light source and a mechanical means of shuttering it IIRC - I'll go look up the reference again & edit this psot or include it in a later one.

Yet again JK fails.

I have decided that I now think JK and his ilk are not "conspiracy theorists" - as far as I am concerned they are hoaxers.

I believe their irrational and illogical rantings have the potential to cause actual harm through downstram actions by others who may be fooled by them, so they are both dishonest and dangerous.

Edit- found it - bottom of page 16 of this thread, or alternatively here - 1.3 mb pdf file - it does not mention how many were made, but does say that it was used operationally and that 18 were shipped to US BuOrd & CniCPac for testing.

[JonS]

I believe their irrational and illogical rantings have the potential to cause actual harm through downstram actions by others who may be fooled by them' date=' so they are both dishonest and dangerous.[/quote']

I've long thought that - a while ago JK was advocating that people drink peroxide (or amonia? Meh, t'was either a strong acid or a strong alkalae, it matter not exactly which it was). In other words the vile sh!t was actively advocating that people self-harm, under the guise of 'curing' them.

[Stalins Organ]

Yep - quack medicine is definitely dangerous - eg here for an example in Australia of people being encouraged to self harm, in the guise of an "alternative cure", by an MD - which sadly jsut goes to show that there are dangerous hoaxers everywhere!

[JonS]

http://whatstheharm.net/

[John Kettler]

JonS,

Two different topics and weapons, but don't let such "minor" distinctions sway you from your customary distortions of what I've said. As for your other charge, there is such a thing as peroxide therapy, which uses dilute concentrations of food grade hydrogen peroxide.

http://educate-yourself.org/cancer/benefitsofhydrogenperozide17jul03.shtml

I suspect, though, you may've conflated that with a story I once reported of a man whose wife had Alzheimer's disease. He gave her a safe but high dose of MSM, a natural biological form of sulphur, which opens up the membranes, to include the blood/brain barrier, placed her in a bathtub filled with very warm water, then added some bleach to the bath water. What happened was that the aluminum which had been bound to her nerves was now strongly attracted to the chlorine suspension in the tub, left the brain, pased through the blood/brain barrier, thence into the bloodstream and out through the skin, bound to the chlorine, and the woman, previously so far along in her disease she didn't recognize her husband, within short order regained her faculties and was his loving wife again.

If you're going to accuse me of something, at least report it correctly!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Stalins Organ]

What a ridiculous article - "It's obvious that our oxygen needs are not being met." Really?? So we are all suffocating?

"Let's look at several conditions that seem to respond especially well to H202 therapy." SEEM to?? What - you cant' actually show that there is a link between improvements and Hyd Per??

Typically vague drivel from the quack brigade to hoax people out of their cash!

Just like your other hoaxes.

[Affentitten]

Just like ducks, quacks muddy the waters. A couple of years ago a guy was pursued vigorously here in the courts for selling some sort of miracle water that would cure every ill known to man. He was prosecuted because it was just ordinary water with no scientific evidence of its claims. Yet my Yellow pages still lists dozens and dozens of people practising as homepaths quite legally. Go figure.

[Other Means]

Just like ducks, quacks muddy the waters. A couple of years ago a guy was pursued vigorously here in the courts for selling some sort of miracle water that would cure every ill known to man. He was prosecuted because it was just ordinary water with no scientific evidence of its claims. Yet my Yellow pages still lists dozens and dozens of people practising as homepaths quite legally. Go figure.

I was going to buy a book on homoeopathy. In the end I just stuck an empty notepad by one instead.

[JonS]

peroxide therapy, which uses dilute concentrations of food grade hydrogen peroxide.

http://whatstheharm.net/ozonetherapy.html

[ironbar]

from the linked to article;

"35% Food Grade: This is used in the production of foods like cheese, eggs, and whey-containing products. It is also sprayed on the foil lining of aseptic packages containing fruit juices and milk products. THIS IS THE ONLY GRADE RECOMMENDED FOR INTERNAL USE. It is available in pints, quarts, gallons or even drums. Various suppliers are mentioned later in this article"

from just a quick search;

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is warning consumers not to purchase or to use high strength hydrogen peroxide products, including a product marketed as “35 Percent Food Grade Hydrogen Peroxide,” for medicinal purposes because they can cause serious harm or death when ingested. FDA recommends that consumers who are currently using high-strength hydrogen peroxide stop immediately and consult their health care provider

http://www.h2o2.com/technical-library/default.aspx?pid=78&name=FDA-Drinking-Info

Courtesy of US peroxide.

NIH's report on fatalities from ingesting 35% Food grade h202

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658134/

[John Kettler]

What's past risible? For this discussion has now been so twisted by the naysayers as to be in that category. A 6" shell weighs approximately 90 lbs; the Japanese proximity fuzed bomb used at Saipan over 1700. Baldwin makes it clear the Japanese had proximity fuzed shells and militarily significant quantities of a proximity fuze for bombs and other applications. The difference? Priceless! BTW, you will search in vain in Craven & Cate (AAF official history) for any mention of that Saipan disaster. The AAF is not candid when it gets waylaid on its own base. Later, I'll provide another example to illustrate that very point. Also, I have confirmed the Japanese destroyed their war records. See, for example, Zenji Orita's I-BOAT CAPTAIN where he says on page 239 of the paperback edition (Fair use) : "I was charged with the burning of war records and official documents." Orita skippered the I-47, which participated in the first Kaiten suicide sub attack. Time and again, his book makes clear the Japanese mania for secrecy, such as the code name for the Kaiten, a Type C metal fitting. Even the submarine commanders didn't know what that meant until called to HQ and briefed.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Stalins Organ]

There is a day-by-day war diary about Saipan that I found when this came up earlier - there was 1 raid where, IIRC, a coupld of B29's were destroyed and several damaged - there was also video supposedly of burning a/c on Saipan but I think there weer some obvious probelms with the identification.

(Edit - found the post that references the war diary & video here)

I am glad John realises the difference between a bomb and a shell. Now if he could only realise the difference between evidence and hearsay.....

John the section of Baldwin you have already quoted does NOT say that they developed a fuse for shells - it says that they developed one for bombs, and that they ordered 20,000 fuses - and that they fitted them to BOMBS - here it is copied from you previous post with my emphasis added:

Just got some data independent of Hara which confirms the Japanese had proximity fuzed shells. Source is Ralph B. Baldwin's THE DEADLY FUZE, written in 1980 where on page 50 he says (Fair Use) "...the Japanese did develop a proximity fuze for shells and successfully dropped one (proximity fuzed bomb, J.K.) on Saipan." On page 64 he amplifies his remarks by stating that the bomb weighed 1700 lbs., fuzed properly at 35 feet height of burst and destroyed or damaged scores of B-29s. He further states (Fair use)

"The Japanese navy ordered twenty thousand fuzes to be manufactured. Twelve thousand were eventually produced. Many were fitted to bombs and stored secretly on Kyushu for the expected invasion."

Specifically note "Many were fitted to BOMBS and...."

And from this you then concluded:

So, a primary source, scientist Ralph Baldwin, who worked in the very same Section T under the brilliant Merle Tuve that developed the VT fuze for shells, has told us not only that the Japanese did have proximity fuzed shells but also produced militarily significant numbers of what appears to be a proximity fuze with multiple applications.

That is ridiculous - the sections states that fuse is for bombs, and it was fitted to bombs - how you get that it was therefore a VT fuse, with "multiple applications" is beyond me.

Indeed the quote is so obviously NOT a VT fuse that I have unkind thoughts as to your ability to read accurately!

the US intelligence report I have linked to already states that the bomb fuse was known to be used operationally and could be fitted to 2 sizes of bomb.