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Technology in WW2

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Michael Emrys,

Here's the Luftwaffe book I was trying to remember :STRATEGY FOR DEFEAT: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945, by Murray. Used to own a copy but someone borrowed it and disappeared. Also, either my memory's faulty, or they changed the cover design from what I remember of the hardcover's dust jacket.

Pak_43,

Is this what you had in mind? Here are the first three of many that came up using the phrase "cios reports" in the Search window.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=3024049

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=8681317&j=1

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=8681318

Regards,

John Kettler

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Ah...so now, of course, it is closed eyes and closed minds that prevent us all from understanding the wonder of this technology.

and here was me thinking it was merely lack of actual evidence ...well I'm glad you cleared that up!

Strategy for defeat is/was available on the web as pdf at some stage - I have a copy of it in that form & the file date is 9/2006 - it is 21mb

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Kettloon: The Vesco technology cites are taken chapter and verse from such things as the Basic Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (B.I.O.S.) and Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (C.I.O.S.) Reports, ... If you don't believe me, try the PRO at Kew, U.K.

Pak: You wouldn't happen to have the National Archive reference handy for the doc would you?

Kettloon: Is this what you had in mind? Here are the first three of many that came up using the phrase "cios reports" in the Search window.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...&CATID=3024049

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...ID=8681317&j=1

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...&CATID=8681318

Well, Loon, does it answer his question? Do those three links relate to "The Vesco technology cites ... taken chapter and verse from such things as the Basic Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (B.I.O.S.) and Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (C.I.O.S.) Reports"? Or are you just wasting everyone's time with another of your stupid link-dumps. Again. My money is on the latter.

Actually don't bother answering - I already know it's the latter. I know because you've started from the wrong end. You've gone to the PRO and done a naive search in the hope (belief? faith? voodooness?) that anything you find will link forwards to the Vasco sh!te. What was asked for, Loon, (and this is very elementary) is a reference from Vasco so Pak can independantly go backwards and check the contents of the referred doc for himself.

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Oh, come on! The thread is more fun without insulting!

JK, did you consider my question:

How many bombers were shot down by the German Flying Discs?

Best regards,

Thomm

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Pak_43,

Is this what you had in mind? Here are the first three of many that came up using the phrase "cios reports" in the Search window.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...&CATID=3024049

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...ID=8681317&j=1

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...&CATID=8681318

The Vesco technology cites are taken chapter and verse from such things as the Basic Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (B.I.O.S.) and Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (C.I.O.S.) Reports,

I didn't have anything in mind except the PRO reference stated in the Vesco technology cites (presumably "in Vesco's INTERCEPT UFO and later MAN MADE UFO 1945-1990 by Vesco and Childress.")

Are these those references?

Given that the first link is from the following departments:

Petroleum Department, Petroleum Warfare Department, 1940-1942

Ministry of Fuel and Power, Petroleum Warfare Department, 1942-1946

Ministry of Supply, Armament Research Department, 1942-1954

And the 2nd and 3rd links are to pages that don't appear to exist you'll forgive my scepticism that they are...

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there' a great "dynamic" map here that gives a great view!

Wow, intense. I hadn't quite grasped that there was that much activity. I hope it won't turn out to be one of those super volcanos getting ready to blow.

On the other hand, if it is, probably best it's in the Southern Hemisphere.

;)

Michael

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It crossed my mind that Banks Peninsular, on hte right of that map, is based around 2 extinct volcanoes that form teh 2 large harbours clearly visible.

And that some of those epicentres are in the northern of those 2 harbours - Lyttleton - Chch's port.

I'm pretty sure that the volcanoes ARE properly extinct - ie they are no longer over the "hot spot" that made them and haven't errupted for 5-6 million years......

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As an aside....to "answer" JK's complaint about closed minds, etc, I am going to restate some stuff a bit differently...just in case he gets the point.

Firstly - I am happy to accept any conclusion based upon proper evidence. Yes even Nazi flyng saucers. I have no doubt that the USA had an probramme investigating anti-gravity in the 1950-70's - that much seems perfectly clear.

did they discover an "anti gravity" drive? Maybe they did! But the evidence JK presents that they definitely did fall far short of proving it.

Are there secrets from such a programme? Probably. Does the B-2 use electro magnetic propulsion? Maybe....but you have to give very long odds for me to wager $1 that it does, and if I had to chose yes/no then i'm going to chose no every time on the current knowledge base.

I'd love to know what's in the US records for Operation Highjump - it does seem strange that they have been kept secret for a long time, but I can think of much more prosaic reasons for doing so than the discovery of a Nazi base with flying saucers.

Inflated descriptions of it as a "massive" operation seems pretty bizare - 13 ships with 4700 men is hardly "massive" for a military exploration of what was, then, a largely unknown continent with some very real known risks.

I am curious to know what's in all sorts of classified records. And i expect that whenever they are released, if ever, there will be lots of interesting stuff.........maybe some of it will even be "science fiction".

In the mean time using unjustified speculation to tell me what it must be, and that it's all my fault that I don't believe insufficient evidence, just pisses me off.

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JonS,

You do like to live dangerously! You've already had one official warning, yet you dare call me "Kettloon." Am certain that's a direct violation of the Forum Rules. As to your other issue, the links I dug up for Pak_43, am I to understand that I'm supposed to provide a direct link to each and every CIOS and BIOS report listed in the two books? If so, we're going to be here a long, long, time, for there are dozens.

Pak_43,

Apologies for any inadvertent confusion, but I'm navigating thoroughly unfamiliar ground at the (U.K.) National Archives, dealing with an apparently very large series of reports, for which the user hostile to me interface doesn't provide much help. Spent over half an hour simply trying to get a list of, for example CIOS and BIOS Reports 1-59, but all I get is that there is such a file, with Open Access, but no list of even the titles of the 59 reports. I wanted to give you a link to the CIOS report XXV-2 on the Luftfahrtforschungsanstalt "Hermann Goring," Volkenrode, Brunswick (apologies on missing umlaut for Goering), but the best I can get is this, which is not only useless but maddening. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=8681317 You'd think there'd be a way to drill down inside the file, but if so, I can't find it. The citation deals with German work on an engine killing gas mixture, as described in my reply to Thomm. This development is one of the key weapon technologies associated with what is properly known in formerly Top Secret intel files as the Phoo Bomb, more commonly known as the Foo Fighter.

Thomm,

According to chapter 5 of INTERCEPT UFO, pages 134-135, in the 1971 Zebra Books edition I own, a dozen four-engine American bombers were self-destroyed by a series of small gas clouds emitted when (Fair use) "a strange flying machine, hemispherical or at any rate circular in shape, attacked them at a fantastic speed, destroying them in seconds without using guns." This was done using an 8% mix of myrol (75% methlynitrate and 25% methanol) mixed with air, which upon being taken into any internal combustion engine, caused it predetonate and destroyed the engine within seconds. Needless to say, exploding engines and 100 octane avgas don't play well together!

Will have to continue this later.

Regards,

John Kettler

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JonS,

You do like to live dangerously! You've already had one official warning, yet you dare call me "Kettloon." Am certain that's a direct violation of the Forum Rules.

I'll call hin JonStupid or JonSpazzmo then. Does that even things up?

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you dare call me "Kettloon."

When the hat fits ...

Am certain that's a direct violation of the Forum Rules.

If you're so certain; report me. The button is just over there --->

Incidentally, the forum rules are here. You might want to read up and reflect on "Dodger".

am I to understand that I'm supposed to provide a direct link to each and every CIOS and BIOS report listed in the two books?

Well, yes. If you want people to ... you know ... believe you. Otherwise we'll just continue to think of you as "the lying idiot."

I'm navigating thoroughly unfamiliar ground at the (U.K.) National Archives, dealing with an apparently very large series of reports, for which the user hostile to me interface doesn't provide much help.

Why? Pak already knows about the site, obviously, since he gave you the link :rolleyes: (John Kettloon, The Great Researcher, who some how had managed to not know about tNA).

Just give him the goddam references, from the book/report/whatever, like he asked for, and call it done. Sweet jesus. Why - how! - do you manage to turn everything into a friggin three ring circus that invariably ends up with you looking even more imbecilic than before?

Will have to continue this later.

Please, don't.

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JonS-

We have been here before Jon.

I do not like you descending to abuse so if you cannot bring yourself to ignore the posts then at least just register one dose of disbelief and stop adding to the derailment of the thread.

JK has good info and not so good. I prefer to be able to pick out what I want and not to have forum members hounded in my thread. Or in fact in any thread.

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According to chapter 5 of INTERCEPT UFO, pages 134-135, in the 1971 Zebra Books edition I own, a dozen four-engine American bombers were self-destroyed by a series of small gas clouds emitted when (Fair use) "a strange flying machine, hemispherical or at any rate circular in shape, attacked them at a fantastic speed, destroying them in seconds without using guns." This was done using an 8% mix of myrol (75% methlynitrate and 25% methanol) mixed with air, which upon being taken into any internal combustion engine, caused it predetonate and destroyed the engine within seconds. Needless to say, exploding engines and 100 octane avgas don't play well together!

Thanks for the reply.

This is a truly fantastic version you present here. Gave me a good laugh, for which I am grateful.

The internet does not know any substance called "myrol".

This was done using an 8% mix of myrol (75% methlynitrate and 25% methanol) mixed with air, which upon being taken into any internal combustion engine, caused it predetonate and destroyed the engine within seconds.

How did they analyze the used substance, in-flight?

How is it possible to "predetonate" a combustion engine? The fuel-air mixture is sucked into the combustion chamber, where it is ignited and where it is expected to explode. This does not destroy the engine, it is the driving power.

How did they get this gas into the engine? By flying in front of the plane?

I must say it is one of the best UFO stories I read so far.

Best regards,

Thomm

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Pak_43,

Apologies for any inadvertent confusion, but I'm navigating thoroughly unfamiliar ground at the (U.K.) National Archives, dealing with an apparently very large series of reports, for which the user hostile to me interface doesn't provide much help. Spent over half an hour simply trying to get a list of, for example CIOS and BIOS Reports 1-59, but all I get is that there is such a file, with Open Access, but no list of even the titles of the 59 reports. I wanted to give you a link to the CIOS report XXV-2 on the Luftfahrtforschungsanstalt "Hermann Goring," Volkenrode, Brunswick (apologies on missing umlaut for Goering), but the best I can get is this, which is not only useless but maddening. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...&CATID=8681317 You'd think there'd be a way to drill down inside the file, but if so, I can't find it. The citation deals with German work on an engine killing gas mixture, as described in my reply to Thomm. This development is one of the key weapon technologies associated with what is properly known in formerly Top Secret intel files as the Phoo Bomb, more commonly known as the Foo Fighter.

*Sigh*....

OK John, I give in, I'll spell it out for you...

It's "A Catalogue", which means that it allows you to identify the documents you want access to, this one just happens to be online, it's the first step in doing something called "Research", you may have heard of it?

And I can't believe that a catalogue that is "The National Archives" of the UK would be anything but an

apparently very large series of reports...

Your apparent surprise on the subject speaks volumes...

If you go to your link and click on the big button labelled "Browse from Here" you can view the breakdown document catalogues for each subseries and their titles...

Feel free to do this and have a good browse through the document titles, it's a thrilling read full of top secret information such as:

"Smoke generator No 6: red and yellow smokes; formulation and trials"

Click on any of these links and you get to the precis of the document and on this page there is a big button called "Ordering and Viewing Options" select this button and then click on the link called "Order Printed or Digital Copies of this Record"

Now please.... simply provide me the document references in the book you cited relating to (apparently it's now some kind of UFO based gas munition) whatever it was you were on about....

I've provided you with the link to the National Archive catalogue, which was your source, I've shown you how to interrogate the catalogue to work out which documents you want to look at, again for a source you provided.

Now I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the fecking references you cited in your 2nd post on the subject, a reference you raised with, and I quote...

If you don't believe me, try the PRO at Kew, U.K.

Look in the original book you cited, check the footnote or bibliography for the reference relating to the issue and give me the reference cited in the book. How hard is that?

I didn't even ask you to look in the National Archives, I would do that (a good job I think given your inability to either understand a catalogues purpose or navigate a few simple buttons) and draw a conclusion relating to your claim based on my examination of that evidence, so there was no need for you to enter an apparently bewildering online catalogue too vast in scope for you to comprehend, all you had to do was simply answer the question I asked...

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JK has good info and not so good.

If you believe that, then you are part of the problem.

Besides, you seem to not be aware of how this works. John is a loon. We all know that, but we all play the unvarying game anyway. It goes something like this:

* Someone will start an innocuous thread, and discussion will progress.

* At some point, Kettloon will pop up and make some ludicrous, imaginary claim.

* No one believe him. Well, no one except a credulous few.

* Evidence will be posted indicating that his cliam violates - at least - the rules of logic and the laws of physics.

* Undeterred, and even egged on by the credulous few, Kettloon will deluge the thread in a blizzard of irrelevant links farmed from random Google searches.

* A few sample links will be show to be irrelevant at best, or actually contradictory to Kettloon's claim.

* Undeterred, Kettloon will deluge the thread in another blizzard of irrelevant links farmed from another random Google.

* This cycle continues, with Kettloon alternately playing the part of victimised visionary or internet cop, threatening folk merely playing their role.

* eventually, with nowhere left to run, Kettloon will claim to "be tired" or some other pretend ailment, or that his PC - which shares his pretend ailments - has gone on the blink, and vanish from the game.

* At this point life will continue happily until the whole show starts again in a few days or (hopefully) months.

Everyone here knows their role. Kettloon is of course Kettloon. You are one of the credulous few. Everyone else plays the part of treating him with the contempt he desires.

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Thomm your Google foo is not good. I have not bothered posting the full text on how to make it .. :)

MYROL (Methyl nitrate) Myrol was developed as a substitute explosive by the Germans at the end of WWII. Myrol is one of the most brisant explosives known. Prior to this application it was considered inferior to other explosives due to it's poor storage stability. This instability was due to early manufacture processes and their tendency to leave acidity in the final product. The process developed by the Germans in the latter part of the war when explosives were in short supply and stretching agents and substitute explosives were used. This manufacture process was a distillation from the nitration acids instead of the nitroglycerin type nitration used earlier. This explosive requires only methanol alcohol and nitric and sulfuric acids. Also required is the nitric acid still from the nitric acid section of this publication. With simple manufacture and easily acquired ingredients this is a very attractive choice. Methyl nitrate is less shock sensitive than nitroglycerin or nitroglycol but is slightly less sensitive to friction. MANUFACTURE-

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JonS-

Thank you for those kind words. Of course I know what is going on but then I do not waste my time on anything I think uninteresting or too bogus.

As for calling another poster a credulous , as far as I know there is nothing that I have posted saying what I believe of JK's. I therefore suggest you are gullible to believe that I believe. : )

As for attacking virulently and repeatedly someones posts that could be ignored, and people who find your antics offensive, then that reflects on you. I reserve my scorn for bigger problems like religion and bogus science being peddled in the mainstream media. However if it is necessary for your mental state to spend so much time on an unimportant thread in an unimportant forum please feel free to continue.

I am charitable to all on the board : )

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Pak_43,

I know what a catalog is, and as it happens, I used the one there. I was repeatedly able to get to WO files such as the one with 59 CIOS and BIOS reports, but what I wasn't able to do was get a list of what was in that particular "box," if you will. When looking for a specific item, it helps to be able to see what's in the group of reports where it may be located. I just got through following your instructions, using the link I last gave as my test. When I hit the "Browse from Here" button, it took me right back to the Catalog. After uttering suitable frustation expletives, I tried again. This time the miserable thing worked. Here is a citation similar to the one I gave, but it may not be the exact one I intended. It does show, though, that such reports were done and still do exist.

Luftfahrtforschungsanstalt Herman Goering, Volkenrode: aerodynamics of rockets and ramjets research and development work

Covering dates 1945

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=3125601

Thomm,

Here's a thread in which chemistry/explosives buffs tell how they made it and call it by name. There's even a picture of a test detonation!

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=744

As for "predetonation," an internal combustion engine relies on precise timing of the components in its working cycle. Screw with that timing, and the engine starts knocking and can rip itself to pieces because things are happening when they're not supposed to, generating all kinds of stresses the designers never planned for within the engine.

Acetylene can do the same thing, and diesel engines are built much more stoutly than gasoline engines. From a USAF Institute study of nonlethal weapons http://myweb.cableone.net/mtilton/nonlethal.html

"Reactant, Acetylene, Grenade . One pound bomb containing calcium carbide and water. Upon detonation, forms a bubble of acetylene gas seven feet in diameter. When sucked into the air intake of a diesel at concentrations as little as one percent, the gas would cause the fuel in each cylinder to ignite prematurely, with enough force to break piston rods." [144,387].

Regards,

John Kettler

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