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dieseltaylor

Technology in WW2

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The Vesco technology cites are taken chapter and verse from such things as the Basic Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (B.I.O.S.) and Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (C.I.O.S.) Reports, which are both official and were once classified. If you don't believe me, try the PRO at Kew, U.K.

You wouldn't happen to have the National Archive reference handy for the doc would you John?

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John those old intelligence reports covered everything and anything that _might_ have existed. Mention in them means little or nothing now.

Execution of staff doesn't mean anything either - except the executioner was an a-hole.

As usual you are inventing motives and reasons to suit your pre-existing conclusions.

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The strike was part of the much feared rampage down the West Coast following Pearl Harbor (caught and sank the Pacific fleet in deep water--glub!), but we were both better equipped and far more cunning and aggressive, basically laying waste to that coast from Seattle to the Canal Zone...

One question, John: How did you arrange for the refueling and resupply of the Japanese fleet that far from home waters?

Michael

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Affentitten,

This was done after the Bell was shipped to some super secret location, so the action was akin to killing the guys who worked on the pharaoh's tomb and knew its secrets. Makes very good sense when seen in that light.

Wicky,

Thanks! I'm on meds because I was getting as little as an hour of "sleep" a night before them, my condition having severely deteriorated since you last heard from me. My neurologist's first priority was to posture me to get more and longer sleep, so that he could begin to work through a stack of other neurological issues. Will take a look at your link later, being rather fried from Steel Typhoon scenario writing!

JonS,

Determinedly uncivil as ever, I see!

Stalin's Organist,

Rather than pooh-poohing, may I suggest you actually go look at the sources cited? There's a wealth of solid technical data, from which you just might learn something new and worthwhile. See also my reply to Pak_43 after "Stop the presses!"

Pak_43,

Unless NARA has a set, which is possible but probably unlikely, I think you need a PRO contact or someone willing to copy PRO items on your behalf. ISTR Blackcat once made such an offer. Would imagine you'd need to clearly ID the report or reports and make arrangements to cover his expenses. If I had the money, I'd own every one of those reports. Stop the presses! This link shows some of this is available from the Library of Congress and is heavily requested. http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/trs/trsgencoll.html Many goodies here! While we're on this, I should mention that in one of the Henry Stevens books he reproduces a formerly Top Secret U.S. air intel doc in which appears direct confirmation of Vesco's Feuerball, the phoo bomb. Call the spelling critical when making FOIA requests!

Affentitten,

If that was revenge, the price was dear! Wrecked my sleep starting 8:15 a.m. and beat on me until I gave up in despair before noon, being in the hurt locker since. Felt somewhat human later, though, which is how I got the scenario stuff done. Still haven't had the level of concentration to fight in CM, and wouldn't you know someone just announced a tournament?

Michael Emrys,

Since the inter-campus wargame was conducted with the benefit of hindsight, we built the capabilities we needed to wage that kind of war, to include properly escorted UNREP groups, antiaircraft cruisers, better aero engine technology, puncture sealing fuel tanks, cockpit armor, large scale pilot training, etc. and spent cubic hours doing the naval planning to get the strike formations to the right places and times while properly supplied and supported. ISTR our OpOrd was inches thick and detailed the full particulars of who was going where to do what, when, where resupply would occur, when, etc. Huge amount of staff work, which we shortened by inventing our own naval movement forms. Blew Control's mind!

Regards,

John Kettler

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Michael Emrys,

Since the inter-campus wargame was conducted with the benefit of hindsight, we built the capabilities we needed to wage that kind of war, to include properly escorted UNREP groups, antiaircraft cruisers, better aero engine technology, puncture sealing fuel tanks, cockpit armor, large scale pilot training, etc. and spent cubic hours doing the naval planning to get the strike formations to the right places and times while properly supplied and supported.

Ah, I see. So nothing that the historical Japanese could have done in 1941. Okay, fair enough. I have done my own fantasy scenarios that involve one side beginning in the early '30s (or even earlier) to build up a force structure that would allow them to accomplish things beyond their grasp in the actual war.

An interesting counter-scenario to the one you propose would be to permit the Allied side to get wind of at least some of the Japanese measures and take appropriate counter-measures. One that comes to mind would be pushing the development and production of high performance interceptors.

One more question I have about your proposed improved Japanese force structure is whether the Japanese economy could have supported it. For instance, one explanation I have read for why the Japanese aircraft were so lightly constructed is that that was the only way that they could get the required performance out of them given the relatively low horsepower ratings of their primary aero engines at the start of the war. The further explanation for that in turn—in one source that I read—was that they were behind in the development of modern engine metallurgy. Whether that is the correct explanation or not, something was holding up development and it does illustrate "the want of a nail" phenomenon as it applies to the circumstances in which the war was fought.

Michael

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SO indeed that is good stuff on Operational Research

Bomber Command's Operational Research Section (BC-ORS), analysed a report of a survey carried out by RAF Bomber Command.[citation needed] For the survey, Bomber Command inspected all bombers returning from bombing raids over Germany over a particular period. All damage inflicted by German air defenses was noted and the recommendation was given that armour be added in the most heavily damaged areas. Their suggestion to remove some of the crew so that an aircraft loss would result in fewer personnel loss was rejected by RAF command. Blackett's team instead made the surprising and counter-intuitive recommendation that the armour be placed in the areas which were completely untouched by damage in the bombers which returned. They reasoned that the survey was biased, since it only included aircraft that returned to Britain. The untouched areas of returning aircraft were probably vital areas, which, if hit, would result in the loss of the aircraft.[citation needed]

More on Operational research now

http://www.informs.org/

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ME

Be fair the Zero was outstanding at the start of the war. And in carrier battles plane range is a huge factor. The Japanese already knew they could not compete long-term so a knock-out punch was the only hope. Knocking out the Panama Canal seems an obvious target.

A for resourcing a fleet the Japanese merchant marine I am sure frequented South America so arranging for fuelling and replenishment I would not think necessarily that big a deal.

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Yes, and Colonel Blimp was still alive and well in Australia in 1942. Anybody of any talent had been sent to the Middle East. You can just imagine someone in Canberra looking at a squadron record and saying "It says here they've got nearly a hundred planes up there already. Why do they need more? It'd be good to get the young sprogs blooded anyway.Tell them to get some moral fibre."

I believe you are quoting actual history, or something resembling it. Bruce Gamble in Fortress Rabaul IIRC mentions something of the sort. What the unfortunate Colonel Blimp failed to note was that all but a tiny handful of those planes were either destroyed, damaged beyond repair, or damaged awaiting repair. Once consigned to that latter category, planes tended to remain it it due to the shortage of spares and maintenance personnel to do the work.

Michael

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ME

Be fair the Zero was outstanding at the start of the war.

Not in dispute. I was making the point of how it got that way and why. The Japanese designers were quite ingenious in getting amazing performance (including unmatched range) from their planes. But they paid a heavy and eventually fatal price in terms of the fragility of the final product.

A for resourcing a fleet the Japanese merchant marine I am sure frequented South America so arranging for fuelling and replenishment I would not think necessarily that big a deal.

It's not that simple. In 1941 it was as much as the IJN could do to provide enough oilers for the Pearl Harbor Strike Force, and even then the operation was conducted on a shoestring. To get to the Canal means traveling at least twice as far through more heavily traveled waters. Supply would not have been possible and maintaining the secrecy of the operation unlikely. The US was actually more sensitive about the Canal than PH, so any hostile move towards it, once detected, would have likely produced a strong reaction.

Michael

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JK - as I said, I don't care whether the "Basic Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (B.I.O.S.) and Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (C.I.O.S.) Reports" have mention of the "technologies" you mention or not - they are old, obsolete, and anything they claim that has not been supported by later research is just fairy dust as far as I am concerned.

By all means provide something that can't be blown away by a soft breath....

As for the links you provided - "disc aircraft" and ROBS are both bravo-sierra, the others are uncontroversial and so what?

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Unless NARA has a set, which is possible but probably unlikely, I think you need a PRO contact or someone willing to copy PRO items on your behalf. ISTR Blackcat once made such an offer. Would imagine you'd need to clearly ID the report or reports and make arrangements to cover his expenses. If I had the money, I'd own every one of those reports. Stop the presses! This link shows some of this is available from the Library of Congress and is heavily requested. http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/trs/trsgencoll.html Many goodies here! While we're on this, I should mention that in one of the Henry Stevens books he reproduces a formerly Top Secret U.S. air intel doc in which appears direct confirmation of Vesco's Feuerball, the phoo bomb. Call the spelling critical when making FOIA requests!

No need for all that John, I just need the reference... just go to catalogues and search for UFO (instance)

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/

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Michael Emrys,

We had extensive R & D workups, development timelines, funding profiles, etc., on everything we did. We licensed engine tech from Germany (DB-603), torpedo boats from Italy (MAS) and so forth, working at every turn to correct deficiencies, to include heavy emphasis on COMSEC. We even hired Walter Christie, who historically was at loose ends, and had him design us a cohesive, powerful armor force. Emily flying boats were redesigned into nasty heavy bombers. These and more were made possible by wise heads that got us/kept us out (forget which) of a China War (game started ~1930), making all sorts of resources available. We were lionized by the League of Nations! Interestingly , the Japanese had an aircraft factory in real life bigger than Willow Run, the monster that cranked out B-24s like toys. That Japanese factory was the largest aircraft factory in the world. On the other end of the scale, the first Zero fighter had to be dismantled into ten oxcarts and taken to its airfield for reassembly and flight tests! So the answer to your question is that by not blowing money and goodwill wholesale in China, Japan was able to provide herself with all sorts of useful goodies and capabilities, to include some era appropriate super carriers based on not building Yamato and Musashi as BBs, though we did keep some BBs for air defense and shore bombardment. Recall that back then carriers didn't even really figure into standard naval power calculations, so weren't deemed a threat, more like a waste of resources by big gun advocates. Japan pioneered the modern carrier strike force. We just ran with it! I should note that despite our being international good guys, Control, which unknown to us was simply trying to teach WW II via somewhat distorted replication, basically boxed us in economically and politically, leaving us with strike quickly or starve economically via fuel embargoes and the like. Ironically, we actually did way more than Germany.

Pak_43,

I thought you were looking for the same info here in the States, hence my excitement over what I found.

Stalin's Organist,

If you can't or won't look at what's so plainly there in the German tech base, then you're missing out on a richer understanding of where things really stood at the end of the war. Here's the truth: We're still living off what we stole from the Germans. You may not like the way this is written, but it tells some important truths. http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Gerrev.htm . Rather than start there, I recommend you begin by reading the far tamer article from Harper's, written just after the war, in October 1946. http://greyfalcon.us/restored/October1.htm

You might also want to investigate the connection between U.S. aeromedicine and Nazi experiments on prisoners. Not pretty! As for your cracks re discs and ROBS, perhaps you'd care to explain this? http://webfairy.org/missilegate/rfz/vril.htm I refer to the German saucer report sent to Hoover by the SAC in Detroit regarding the belated debrief of a former POW. Note not only that Hoover was sent the report but that it went to everyone who was important in the Intelligence Community of the time.

Regards,

John Kettler

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Emrys,

I wonder if the light Jap construction also had something of the martial philosophy about it? A true warrior doesn't need (or seek) protection. Or perhaps that was just a nicely retrofitted bit of bushido.

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Affentitten,

This was done after the Bell was shipped to some super secret location, so the action was akin to killing the guys who worked on the pharaoh's tomb and knew its secrets. Makes very good sense when seen in that light.

No it doesn't. Once the Pharaoh died and the tomb was sealed, the project was over. The only remaining concern was protecting it from tomb robbers. But if you've got an on-going project of such vital import, and apparently one that didn't work or was yet to be properly employed, killing everyone who knew how to work it is dumb. Who were they trying to keep it secret from? The enemy? If it was complete enough to kill all participants for security measures, what about actually using it to stop the 3rd Reich being over-run by untermenschen?*

*Assumptions based on that it was, for a moment, even remotely factual.

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I am just starting on Overy's The Air WAr 1939-1945. Fascinating.

There is a huge amount of info on production per man-hour and stuff!. One thing sort of stunning is that until late in the war the Japanese Navy and the Army Air Arms could not agree a common electrical standard for their planes. !!!?

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These and more were made possible by wise heads that got us/kept us out (forget which) of a China War (game started ~1930), making all sorts of resources available. We were lionized by the League of Nations!...So the answer to your question is that by not blowing money and goodwill wholesale in China, Japan was able to provide herself with all sorts of useful goodies and capabilities...

Agree that ending the war with China opens the doors to all sorts of new possibilities. However...

I should note that despite our being international good guys, Control, which unknown to us was simply trying to teach WW II via somewhat distorted replication, basically boxed us in economically and politically, leaving us with strike quickly or starve economically via fuel embargoes and the like. Ironically, we actually did way more than Germany.

That then makes this whole part artificial and nonsensical. Ending the war in China would require really major political changes and even greater changes within the military culture. It's hard to see Japan then taking the militaristic stance it did historically. Also, by ceasing aggression against China (and presumably also not making threatening moves into French Indo-China) there would have been no economic sanctions and no reason to go to war, at least not against the West. Could we then have seen serious diplomatic efforts in the West to keep Japan out of the Axis? Even re-aligned with GB and France against the Axis with possibly the US joining later?

This might eventuate with a replay of WW I in some ways. It all depends on what Japan would have to win by that. In the first war, Japan gained most of the German possessions in the Pacific. But in the second go round it starts out with those, so what enticements could the West offer that would bring it into the war? More likely they just sit this one out and become the No. 1 industrial power in Asia.

Michael

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We're "still living off technology we stole from the Germans"?

Yep - and again the relevant question is "So what?"

Technology has never been the sole preserve of any 1 conutry, civilisation or peoples. The Romans "stole" mail armour from the Celts, their sword from the Spanish, their shield from Italian tribes and their Pila from the Etruscans. Plus their Gods from the Greeks.....

Everyone "stole" gunpowder from the Chinese, the English "stole" the longbow from the Welsh, who possibly "stole" it from Vikings.

Germany "stole" heavire-than-air flight from the USA, and lighter than air from the French.

For every bi of original German technology that is part of the world today there are probably 100 bits of technology that were originally developed elsewhere.

No flying saucers required to explain any of it sorry John.

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Pak_43,

I thought you were looking for the same info here in the States, hence my excitement over what I found.

Basic Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (B.I.O.S.) and Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee (C.I.O.S.) Reports, which are both official and were once classified. If you don't believe me, try the PRO at Kew, U.K.

Nope, just the document reference at the National Archives is all I need to follow it up...

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Pak_43,

I'm confused. I was referring to the U.S. National Archives, but the link you gave suggests you mean the U.K. equivalent. Which one do you mean, please?

dieseltaylor,

If you think that's crazy, I suggest you take a look at the Imperial Japanese Army's private fleet. Huge! While we're on the Japanese, I should mention they had experimental ferrite loaded Stealth paint (U.S. later version called Iron Ball and used on SR-71), and this is discussed in the appropriate section of the U.S. Navy Technical Mission To Japan.

Michael Emrys,

We simply operated within the rules as defined to us by Control. We had to be able to not only pay for things we did, but we had to show the progression of the tech base to support what we built. That's why we did so many licensing deals, to acquire technical capabilities the Japanese lacked. You raise valid geopolitical issues, but my brother and I had more than enough to do as "military men."

Affentitten,

You argument presumes it wasn't completed; therefore the scientists were still needed. Executing some 60 seems to strongly argue the contrary view. Moreover, there are parallels to be seen in other German black project work. Things are tested and then vanish, as in the case of the huge X-ray beam weapon, the German electrogravitic craft and more. I read an account of a cigar shaped craft the length of a U-boat found in Germany by a T-2 (technical intelligence) guy who reported all the controls were removed and the entire powerplant ripped out of a craft so finely structured that the entry hatch was practically invisible. Moreover, whereas certain KZ Dora (slave labor for Mittelwerke at Nordhausen) inmates survived, it's known that every single one working on one German black project was systematically executed to protect the secret, which apparently was saucer related. The good stuff disappears, leaving the more conventional jet and rocket stuff (for one in flight leaving a hydrocarbon exhaust trail that would embarrass a Phantom II pilot, please see pages 401 and 402 of Cooper's BEHOLD A PALE HORSE) to be discovered, instantly putting the adopting entity way behind the real power curve and plowing immense resources into what is effectively obsolete technology. If you read Speer's INFILTRATION , read Farrell, read Stevens you'll come to understand the vast resources the Germans committed to super secure black project stuff under the SS. The memo to Hoover is but a tiny peek at what they created. Admiral Byrd got his butt kicked in Antarctica by Nordic looking men, in saucers, who spoke English with a German accent and aborted the huge military expedition (5000 combat soldiers) that was Operation High Jump, and before he could be gagged in the States, Byrd told the South American press on the way back about a threat from the Poles, and he didn't mean anyone Slavic! The video quality at the link is poor, but there's a wealth of material on the German electrogravitic craft, to include photos, in the air and one the ground, drawings (mit security markings), etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JtGv9lpONg Note particularly the Andromeda mother craft and its clutch of Vril fighters--armed with 30 mm Mk 108 cannon. Why cannon on the amazing craft? Because the beam weaponry wasn't yet ready, a pattern very much like what we see in German AFV programs. Get something useful into the field now and the mature system later. Thus, antigravity propulsion combined with conventional MGs and cannon, some cruiser caliber on the really big ships. As for Japanese light aircraft construction, it had to do with vast Pacific distances, a desire for speed and maneuverability and relatively low powered engines for most of the war.

Wicky,

Thanks for the most interesting link! I've read most of the story you linked to, am familiar with the ground truth there based not just on the Nick Cook special but also from UFO Hunters. If it's just a water tower base, then why does this one come with massive underground power leads from mine below, a deep black project named Chronos and an account of a concave mirror atop it in which, while Bell was being run below, viewers into the mirror could see back in time? Not exactly standard water tower fit, eh? As for the other, I think you're never going to let me forget that gaffe. Must be nice to be ever error-free!

Regards,

John Kettler

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Stalin's Organist,

Cool link, but not what I was discussing. Here's a Vril-1 fighter. http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo/RFZ6.jpg Please note that the core of both the Nazi Party and the SS black programs is dark occult, as in the Thule Gesellschaft (Thule Society) mentioned in the video UFOs of the Third Reich Strike Back. Here's a color pic of the much larger Haunebu (Honeybee), with a truck in the frame for scale.

http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo/Haunebu_a.jpg Note Balkan Cross German marking on tower. Here is one of the Haunebu 1 plans seen in the vid.http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo/HAUNEBU_I_plan.jpg There is much to be learned from it, starting with the SS classification markings "Secret Command Matter." The top table after that shows the number, by type on hand, the right column the number planned. Immediately below the drawing of the craft is its description "Medium-Heavy Armed Flying Wheel, type Haunebu-1" Time now to break out your German-English dictionary! In descending order on the page : Diameter 25m; Propulsion: Thule Tachyonator 7b; (Flight) Control: Magnetic Field Impulsor; Speed: 4800 km/h (possibly as high as 17,000 km/h ultimately); Flight Duration: 18 hours; Armament: 2 8cm ship cannon in three turrets and 4 30mm Mk-108 cannon.

Recapping, this is a craft built during WW II whose baseline top speed is a beyond revolutionary 4800 km/h. By contrast the SR-71 at Mach 3 did ~3675 km/h, but the Haunebu could stop on a dime and high speed turn at right angles, neither of which the SR-71 could do. I close with the plan for the Andromeda Apparatus, the cigar shaped mother ship. Note particularly the nests for Vril-1 fighters (Vril-1 plan here http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo/PlanVril1.jpg ) and the downward firing missile tubes. The post war UFO lore is full of accounts of just such craft and smaller craft entering and leaving them. http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/ufo/ANDROMEDA_plan.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

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what - no Panther turrets?? where are the Panther turrets?

I demand Panther turrets dag nabbit!

sigh - I hate it when I have to do my own research.....here they are...

Meh - turns out the whole Nazi UFO thing is a beat up by an anti-holocaust nutcase....made him a lot of money that he then used to write & distribute denila literature. There's a bit quoted in eth link above - the whole thing is here & he has his very own nut-job-identification page on Wiki.

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Stalin's Organist,

Here's a color pic of the much larger Haunebu (Honeybee), with a truck in the frame for scale.... Time now to break out your German-English dictionary!

Ok. Honeybee = Honigbiene

Even the name of this thing is a poor mock up.

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