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Purchase and QB Bone


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Be forewarned... this is a BIG bone. I'm not just talking about the game ramifications, but the sheer volume of text that follows :D

OK, so what is the first bone about? You guys waited very patiently for this (except Elmar ;))... What follows is the long awaited explanation of the new purchasing system for CMx2 and how it functions in QBs, presented in three parts.

The new purchasing system is actually very simple and straight forward from the player's perspective. So much so that I'm sure a lot of you will be thinking "man, why did this take them so long to design"? It's a good and fair question which I want to answer first.

The game requires strictly structured TO&E in order to function, especially in regards to Relative Spotting. So the old CMx1 system of "buy a bunch of junk and head off to battle" absolutely doesn't work. Trying to reconcile new functionality, UI design needs, different play modes, and (most importantly) underlying code structures was quite a task. Especially to make it simple to use. This requires a lot of time for reflection and revision. By my count about 1.5 years so far.

Part I - Two Purchase Modes

Your units (force) is purchased using a combination of two different modes:

Formation Purchase

Unit Purchase

Formation Purchase works fairly similarly to the way CM:SF works. In the Available Forces column you get a list of all the historically correct TO&E that is available to you depending on Modules and game settings. You can select something big, like a Battalion, and remove the unwanted elements just like with CM:SF.

Stand alone platoons are also available for those folks who say "I just want a platoon of tanks and a platoon of infantry, don't bother me with other details". This allows you to quickly select something like a Medium Tank Platoon, remove 2 tanks and keep 3. That sort of thing. Formations are organized by "branch" (Infantry, Armored Infantry, Artillery, etc.) just like CM:SF.

Unit Purchase mode, on the other hand, is designed to augment your primary force with specialized units. From a UI standpoint when you switch to Unit Purchase mode the formations in the Available Forces column are replaced by the list of units. These units the sorts of things that are not typically purchased in platoon sized formations, unlike tanks, rifle infantry, recon infantry, etc. For example, Forward Observers, MMGs, AT Guns, IG Guns, Snipers, vehicles, etc.

To add a unit to one of your formations you select an already purchased formation and click on the purchase button. The unit then attaches itself to the "target" formation. This allows you to do things like add a single MMG directly to a Rifle Company instead of having to purchase an entire Weapons Company and delete everything but a single MMG. It also means that the MMG reports to the Rifle Company HQ instead of something like a Weapons Company HQ. You can, of course, change the "target" at any time to be anything you want it to be.

Keep in mind that whether you are playing a QB or using the Editor the purchase system is identical. Obviously QBs and scenarios are set up differently, but those differences are not the focus of this bone. I'm simply focusing on the actual method of purchasing units for you guys now.

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Part II - Cherry Picking

Now, the question still on people's minds is how to specify something like Panther G (early) directly and without risk of actually getting Panther A (late). It's actually pretty simple, really. You select something in Available Forces (either a Formation or Unit) and *if* there is a choice available the choices appear in a nested hierarchical set of 5 "boxes" at the bottom of the screen.

Here is a quickly made non-game mockup so you can get a better idea what the UI looks like:

Purchase_UI_Mockup.jpg

Box 1 shows the highest level choices, for example "Medium Tank", "Heavy Machinegun", "Rifle Squad", etc. The successive boxes show a narrowing down of choices based on the previous box's selection until a single variant is shown selected. Sometimes this requires all 5 boxes, other times it requires only 2. It depends entirely on how complex the choices are.

One of the cool features of Formations is that when you select a formation, say an Infantry Battalion, Box 1 shows *all* the different types of choices that are contained within that formation. For example, Medium AT Guns, Rifle Squads, Machineguns, Mortars, etc. This allows you to change the default unit for the entire formation with just a couple of clicks instead of having to hunt down each one individually. You can then go to a specific formation or individual unit and make changes there. For example, with a few clicks you make a Medium Tank Battalion consist of "Sherman M4A3 75 (W) Early" tanks, then go to A Company and change 1st Platoon to have "Sherman M4A1 76 (W) Mid".

As I noted above, not everything in the game has options available to it. For example, the US Army only has a single type of 60mm Mortar and for a Rifle Company there is only one arrangement of crews for them, so there is no choice other than the only one that exists. However, a German Heavy Machinegun Squad might be armed with either MG34 or MG42, therefore two choices are available.

The options are also influenced by Availability and Rarity (when enabled). Availability is determined solely by the date and national forces specified in the QB or scenario settings. Rarity is an optional feature which I'll explain in a sec. What this means is that in August 1944 with Rarity off you might have a dozen options for Medium Tank, but on June 1944 with Rarity on you may effectively only have a couple of choices. It all depends.

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Part III - Point Systems

How much stuff you're allowed to purchase? CMx1 had a single number of points for each unit to represent it's overall combat value. The number was a combination of inherent capabilities and Rarity (when enabled). This system had a lot of problems and not many people were happy with it for a variety of reasons. Revisionist thinking after people saw CM:SF without points doesn't count :D

The CM:SF system attempted to solve several problems with point based purchasing, but it really didn't work very well as executed. With the new "cherry picking" system there's no way it could work, so the "pointless" (pun intended!) system was chucked.

Starting with CM: Normandy all units have two point values instead of one; Price and Rarity (when enabled). Price represents the relative value (see further below) of the unit while Rarity represents how common it was historically for that given period of time. Each of the two point types has its own "pool" to draw from when you make purchases. When the Rarity Pool is empty that means you can't buy anything that requires Rarity Points no matter how many Price Points you have.

Why is this important? In the old CMx1 method if you bought a rare unit that wasn't all that good it usually consumed as many points as a more common and yet more capable unit. This meant that people who did buy (or were given using Auto Purchase) rare stuff often had a disadvantage against an opponent who simply bought the best common stuff. It also meant that if something was very rare you weren't likely able to purchase a full formation's worth. This led people to have extremely unrealistic forces simply because they couldn't afford a full complement of any one thing.

The new system eliminates both of these problems by making sure that each player can get his maximum combat potential (for the given conditions) no matter what he buys. Rarity now simply governs how much of that force can be "rare". For example, you may now be able to afford a platoon of King Tigers in a small battle, but not any other rare units. The American player might be able to get a handful of Jumbos, but his other Shermans will be the most common types. Etc.

As important and far reaching as this rather subtle change is, it's not the major innovation in the new system. The big change is that the underlying capability (represented by Price) is determined by the scenario or QB settings. I can't go into specifics at the moment (and this bone is already WAY too long), but what I will tell you is that the prices are designed to take into consideration conditions which significantly alter the relative worth of a unit. For example, a 75mm armed Sherman is extremely deadly against an enemy which is mostly infantry but not very usefu when facing a lot of German tanks. Or something like AT Guns aren't very useful when you're on the attack, King Tigers not all that good in small thickly wooded maps, etc.

The combination of these various features overcome a lot of the fundamental problems associated with unit purchasing in both CMx1 and CM:SF, yet at the same time preserving the positives of both systems.

Steve

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Yay for bones. Particularly ones posted just as I arrive for work in the morning :)

By the sounds of it, the user has the option of specifying to a variety of degrees. You could specify 'medium tank' (and might get any medium tank), 'panther' (and get any panther variant for the time period) or 'panther G late' (to get the specific model). Is that right, or do you have to specify the exact model? Although, how would the points system work if you could specify 'medium tank'; presumably it would have to make a choice and deduct the appropriate points, and let you know how many points you had left.

Out of curiosity, will the scenario editor have the same functionality for specifying particular models of tanks, MG42 vs MG34 etc. as the QB purchasing? I.e. can scenario designers specify particular models of vehicles, or is that system closer to the CM:SF one?

I like the sound of the rarity points idea. Seems like a great way of mixing in unusual stuff without penalising the user for picking something strange. Likewise pricing units according to how useful they are likely to be in any given scenario. With the usual caveat that no matter what you do, there will be at least one thing overpriced to the point of uselessness, and at least one thing so cheap that picking it is virtually an exploit :D

Hopefully you'll remember to add scroll bars to the 'selected units' tab this time, so you can see all your purchased units .. ;)

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I think I require more then two hours of sleep to get to grips with tackling this without saying something stupid and mean spirited.

This system had a lot of problems and not many people were happy with it for a variety of reasons
Oh hell, this may require more then the usual seven hours of uninterrupted sleep. :cool:

Brief summation of my initial reaction: Mildly pleased on the QB system as perceived, not so happy about the bone as a piece of information.

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historically correct TO&E?. Such thing doesn't exist!.

Specially withing the german army in a limited counter-attack role.

The force was built for the "task"... attaching and removing elements in a way that any resemblance to the original force is purely coincidental. :)

Is good to see that task-oriented forces (the real life reality of "historically correct TO&E") can be built in CM:Normandy more easily.

CM: Normandy it's getting back some of the old good CMx1 features slowly.

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My first reaction is "w00t!!"

Sounds awesome, but impossible to judge until we get our dirty little hands on it.

The big change is that the underlying capability (represented by Price) is determined by the scenario or QB settings

This is very interesting: does the price of a unit depend on what the scenario creator decides, or will it be automatically determined by some formula, for example 'proportion of trees >75% King Tiger worth 10% less'???

Edit to add: or both?

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Sounds great!!!

It probably won't get me playing QBs since I have always found the amount of content delivered with Battlefront's games plus the content generated by the community (THANKS to all) sufficient for my needs. But it does also seem that this system will give scenario designers more options to devise interesting battlegroups, so I have no doubt every CM player will benefit, regardless of which type of engagement one prefers.

Cheers!

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Sounds pretty good to me. If the A.I comes to be better than it had been up to this day and in no way fare less, then to design and play an historical encounter should be quite interesting. I am also amazed that we will be able to attribute either an MG 42 and or 34, as well as to have 2 of them if we want it in a squad like it was in normandy in '44. Looks like we are going for quite a good battles to come.

Cheers

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Sounds good, basically sounds just like original system but now it's easier to have a more historical force system set up?

It seems to me that the new C&C attachment system is a pretty huge (and necessary) addition to the QB/scenario design system. Being able to customize OOBs and attach units to particular formations adds a whole new element of realism over CMx1, or even CMSF, for that matter.

In CMx1, this wasn't really an issue because C&C above the platoon level wasn't really modeled at all. If you "bought" an extra HMG team, any HQ unit in your for could command this HMG team if it was close enough. But C&C is far more complex in the CMx2 engine and tracks stuff like the movement of spotting information up and down the C&C tree. So if a QB player or scenario designer reinforces an infantry company with a couple HMG teams from the battalion HMGs, it's important to set exactly where those HMGs are "tied in" to the force C&C structure. The new system described seems to do this pretty elegantly.

Overall, IMHO, a pretty huge bone. I mean, pretty pictures are very nice. But game mechanics is what keeps me coming back for more...

Cheers,

YD

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Sounds good, basically sounds just like original system but now it's easier to have a more historical force system set up?

I'm liking the separation of rarity from the standard points.

I'm just so happy we get to pick our forces again!

Yes... good, clean, functional for BOTH QB and Scen Design

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I can't show pictures of the actual user interface yet because it's using mockup graphics at the moment. Way too ugly to show :D However, now that I've had a little bit of sleep I might eek out some time today to make a semi-abstract visual representation of the elements I discussed so you can at least get an idea of what it looks like.

I'll use TheVulture's questions to clarify how picking works:

By the sounds of it, the user has the option of specifying to a variety of degrees. You could specify 'medium tank' (and might get any medium tank), 'panther' (and get any panther variant for the time period) or 'panther G late' (to get the specific model).

Correct. For German medium tanks the choices are:

Box 1 - Medium Tank

Box 2 - Panther or PzIV

Box 3 - Specific "mark number" of either Panther or PzIV. For example, Panther D or PzIV J (depending on Box 2's selection)

Box 4 - Specific variant of the "mark number" of whatever was selected in Box 3. For example, Panther D (Late), PzIV J (Mid), etc.

We have some flexibility in how to organize things, so if there aren't too many variants we can simply put them all in Box 3 and not use Box 4 or Box 5. But for some things, like the dizzying array of Shermans, we're better off breaking things down more.

Is that right, or do you have to specify the exact model? Although, how would the points system work if you could specify 'medium tank'; presumably it would have to make a choice and deduct the appropriate points, and let you know how many points you had left.

A specific selection always exists. Meaning when you click on Box 1 "Medium Tank" there is already a chain of selections in the other boxes. Point cost is always based on whatever the selection is. Since there is always a selection there is always a cost displayed.

The system is also set up to make selections randomly or semi-randomly as needed. For example, the Germans did not mix Panthers and PzIVs in the same formations. It was either one or the other. But they did mix variants of Panthers within a Panther formation, variants of PzIVs within a PzIV formation. The default picking logic knows this and will choose appropriately. It also enforces these rules on the player by default. This can be overridden, in a way, by the player using the Unit Purchase system.

The ability to choose specific variants of non-vehicle units is the same from a mechanics standpoint. I gave the example of a German HMG Team having the choice between MG34 or MG42, but it applies to other major variations such as US Rifle Squads with 1x, 2x, or 3x BAR (the latter is not applicable to Normandy game's timeframe). Here is how a German HMG selection would show up:

Box 1 - Heavy Machinegun

Box 2 - HMG34 or HMG42

That's it for this particular one since the choice is rather limited.

Another neat addition is the ability to choose if you want certain types of artillery to be on or off map. For example:

Box 1 - Medium Mortar

Box 2 - 81mm On Map or 81mm Off Map

This means you get to choose between the two options, with their inherent pros and cons, without screwing up the TO&E or requiring messing around with Unit Purchase stuff. It's right there for you to choose with two clicks.

But this isn't the only way to have variety because the game supports individual weapon variation based on a sort of "rarity" formula. This allows some guys to have MP44s, but others to have Kar98Ks or MP40s as would likely be the case in Normandy for that type of unit (e.g. WH units would rarely have MP44s, SS would have a better chance but still limited). In CM: Afghanistan this sort of thing is taken to an extreme in places since the variety of small arms for the opposition forces basically means no two fighting units are armed exactly the same way.

Sivodsi,

This is very interesting: does the price of a unit depend on what the scenario creator decides, or will it be automatically determined by some formula, for example 'proportion of trees >75% King Tiger worth 10% less'???

Yes, something like that. This fixes a ton of complaints about battles where one side gets something that is utterly useless for the particular battle conditions. While it might be realistic (and might not be!) it can be quite "unfun". Remember... CM supports "Auto Purchase" of units so it's not right to say "well, the person CHOSE to have King Tigers for a rainy, heavily forested, hilly battle so he deserves what he gets!". I completely agree with that if the player wasn't given the King Tigers by the game system.

Which brings me to another advantage of the new system. Auto Purchase can now be a lot better than it was in either CMx1 or CM:SF because it now has more "clues" as to what might be a good or bad pick for a particular battle setup. Just having Rarity broken out as its own value makes good picks much more likely than in CMx1.

YankeeDog,

It seems to me that the new C&C attachment system is a pretty huge (and necessary) addition to the QB/scenario design system.

Yes, and it was true for CM:SF too. The calls for "just put it back to the way CMx1 did it" always failed to recognize that it simply isn't possible to have a bunch of random stuff thrown into a battle. With the new C2 system in CMx2, especially Relative Spotting, there *must* be chains of command from the top to the bottom and the bottom to the top. The CM:SF purchase system was definitely too strict and clunky, but the CMx1 system was never a viable alternative.

Steve

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Man, is it just me or has anybody else sorely missed the strategy of choosing units in CMx1 QBs? This was like a game within a game. The classic being when a cat-loving opponent spent most of his points on heavy German armor on a wooded or town map. Thinking the tanks are unstoppable and that additional support is not needed. Then to see em all burning at the end of the battle. Oh the memories...

Looking forward to getting my filthy hands on this. Which leads to the inevitable question, how far along is CMN? Will this be on our hard drives in less than two, four, or six months? Not really after a specific release date, just a round-about estimate. :)

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The implementation of the unit purchase system was our last major coding task. There's still a lot of coding work to do, but we are moving ahead with "real" scenarios and the campaign construction probably sometime next week. What does that mean in terms of timeframe? Obviously we don't know because we never know until we're done :D But obviously we aren't talking about a few weeks to wrap things up.

Steve

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Steve

Wow, what a great bone! Thanks for posting all this great info despite last weeks annoyance.

For me, CMx1 was *all* about competitive QB PBEM. Ahh, the days of 1500 ME Short rules. I think I still have Fionn's rules printed up around here somewhere. Dont get me wrong, the scenarios were fun, but could not hold a candle to QB PBEM play. Needless to say this new system sounds great! As someone else pointed out above, the ability to add support units anywhere in the OOB will be a powerful tool. Now all those 50.cal HMG's from Dog Company can be distributed to platoons throughout 1st Bn! Great system indeed.

Steve, while you are in a talking and bone throwing mood (great combination by the way!):

1. Will the point value of infantry ever change dependent on the terrain of the QB? In other words, would a vanilla rifle platoon cost the same in a city or bocage as it will in an open ground map?

2. I assume that some form of random maps/weather/time of day options will be present again. If so, will the player know the outcome of these random choices *before* they select their forces? In other words, if you hit random on map type, map density, time of day and weather, before I buy that force of all Panther tanks will I know that the map is dense urban, at night, with rain before I make my purchase?

3. When selecting a point value for the game, will we be able to set both a 'normal' and 'rarity' point value, or will there be a constant ratio between the two? In other words, would we be able to choose between having a 1000 'normal' point game with 100 'rarity' points, or one with 800 'rarity' points? Or is it always say 15% of the normal points (ie. a 1000 point game would have 150 'rarity' points)?

4. Picking how many BAR's we get! Thats great! I lived and breathed by vanilla US rifle platoons in CMx1 PBEM games. Just curious, outside of BAR's, are there any other options for rifle platoons? Satchel charges outside of engineers? Bazookas? Sniper rifle (Sprinfield) in platoon HQ? Thompson in rifle squads? Extra ammo? Also, are these platoon settings, or can you have one squad with 2 BAR's, and the other 2 with only 1 BAR?

5. I know that the days of 'Bazooka Team' are over and that these bazookas (or Schreks) have been distributed ala Javaleins in CM:SF. How will this work in QB's though? Do X Bazookas just come with a rifle platoon? Or do you have to buy them (what I mentioned above) in the QB system?

6. Can we set ammo levels in QB's? Can we get extra ammo by paying for it? (ie. I want 125% ammo for this MG42 team)

7. This is both for the editor and QB's, but can we set losses/understrength levels again similar to CM:BB and CM:AK?

Obviously, if you are in an answering mood, feel free to answer one, none or all of them! Any bones are much appreciated.

Thanks again!

Chad

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. . .

Another neat addition is the ability to choose if you want certain types of artillery to be on or off map. For example:

Box 1 - Medium Mortar

Box 2 - 81mm On Map or 81mm Off Map

. . .

Another great feature. Will be nice to see the organic mortars in the Co and Bn levels show up with the choice of being on or off board. Two quick questions:

1. I assume that the American 60mm and German 50mm mortars will always be onmap due to the scale of the game? I know the 60mm had a great range, but they tended to keep up with the platoons and company rather than sit in the rear.

2. Will you automatically get a FO for these organic artillery units if they are offmap?

Thanks again for all the bones!

Chad

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It all sounds very nice, but a few new screenshots thrown in would have been very welcome as well.

What kind of request was that?.

Screenshots aren't of any value at all...

Gameplay features is all that counts for the customers interested in this kind of game...

Any player that buy this game "only" for the nice screenshots will not buy any other module or expansion in the future. A casual player excited by screenshots, will lose the interest if it isn't his style of gameplay.

If you love the gameplay features included in this release, the screenshots doesn't add nothing to the information provided in plain text.

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