SS Pz Gr Div Totenkopf March 1943

[Der Alte Fritz]

Going away for a couple of days but I will take this with me and give it a good run through.

Many thanks for this JasonC, good to see you are still around on the forums.

cheers

[JasonC]

Cuirassier - thanks for the report. I note that the game is explicitly designed for head to head, with Axis vs. the AI a distant second - though I know many will try it against the AI, either side. The AI is bad about mounted operations as well as overwatch, and both are required of the Germans in this one. Distant second because the Russians also need to use artillery intelligently and the AI doesn't. (There are also some stupid AI tricks possible for a German attacker - enough said).

As for the ATGs vs. Panzers dueling, it can easily go either way, human or AI. In testing I've seen the first Panzer platoon "run the table" without loss, and I've seen them wiped out without KOing any gun. Smart tactics help certainly, but just being dug in ATGs is by no means sufficient, and the Russian guns are very heavily outnumbered by enemy armor, overall.

As for the Panzer IIIs, the 50mm may be worse at KOing guns but 70mm fronts are better at bouncing shells, too, down to close range. A hull down late model III is actually pretty good at dueling the ATGs, provided it doesn't push too close. And when you exited early you didn't see the German "second half" threat...

[JasonC]

At the risk of further spoiling effect, some further tactical comment on this fight...

If the Germans engage quickly with their initial force, mobile, not waiting for heavy weapons or a base of fire or to accumulate more AFVs, they risk defeat in detail from the Russian guns. Which are not numerous enough to deal with a slower deliberate attack but could get hot and wreck a faster, piecemeal one.

But if the Germans wait for all those things, they wind up piling up under 8 inch howitzer fire, which is bad for your health. It is hard for the Germans to get any stable overwatching base of fire, because the Russians can just drop fat shells on it forever. Meanwhile infantry first is too slow with cover so sparse, and the Russian soft firepower can easily mess that up.

The Russian problem on the other hand is their ATGs are not numerous and the German armor is extremely numerous. About half of it light halftrack thickness true, but there is still loads. A few ATRs can help, but there aren't many even of those and some come later as reinforcements, only. If the Russians lose their guns early, the German armor can "run", making it much harder to bracket with the big stuff, and the Russians don't have other good ways to deal with even light armor.

Last point - the Russians can wrack up so many kill points taking out armor they can easily win this fight even losing most of their force and most of the ground. The German infantry is also limit in numbers and vulnerable to everything in the Russian force; even supported by living armor it may not make it the distance (30 minutes and all objectives). A couple flags held (or contested by German armor, but without sufficient infantry to actually "clear") plus a lot of smoking dead vehicles can give the Russians a win on points, even nearly wiped out themselves.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Have had an initial run through up to move 15 H2H.

Looked at the Terrain and thought long and hard about it and the only solution seems to be - take the gully first and then use it for an attack on the village.

So did a rapid SS style attack on the gully before waiting for the support. Sent dismounted infantry forwards as a skirmish line but they were stopped by MG and mortar fire but they now had the trenches in view. So did a mounted attack with the SPW and tanks while the PzIII force also did a rapid attack on the other side.

Force crested the gully and ran into AT gun fire which took out 2 PzIV and 2 SPW for the loss of 3 ATGs. By end of move 15 we had taken the gully position.

[Germans moved too fast to be caught by 203mm fire and the Russian reinforcements at back of gully were caught in the middle of a firefight as they arrived and died in short order.]

Would like to see the map extended away from the gully and the Germans given an alternative line of covered approach along the 'river line' across the back of the map. Would help centre fighting on the village and the main road rather than on the gully.

Scenario works pretty well and this could go either way depending on how the dice roll. I was lucky to kill the rear 76mm so quickly and he could have taken out the rest of the PzIV force with ease, leaving the rest of the attack as sitting ducks.

[Chargin Smith]

Does this game run ok with Windows 7?

[JasonC]

Chagrin Smith - it works fine on Windows 7 for me. I did have to make sure I updated my Geforce drivers - it was choppy before I did so. But once I had the latest drivers, no problems, rock stable, runs fine with good frame rates etc.

[JasonC]

DAF - the gully is the "bastion" of the village position and meant to be. Taking it means tangling with the Russian's long suit, infantry in the available cover, but it can certainly work and break the defense's back if you can pull it off cheaply enough. There is still a risk that you may take it and then get plastered by 8 inch shellfire.

An alternative is to avoid it entirely and attack armor first along the left side of the road, outshooting the ATGs, and then using SPWs to run infantry to the brush just shy of the village. With the German FO plastering the village as they arrive, tanks overwatching etc. The SPWs used for it may die to ATRs afterward, but with enough firepower one can get into the village even with the gully bypassed rather than taken first. An advantage is you can wind up too close to the Russians for the 8 inches to be much use, and advance faster than they can "track" you by walking an aim point etc. You can also get close enough to get spots on all the annoying ranged MGs and such that otherwise can slow the infantry without presenting targets.

In the end, either way a lot will turn on the ATG vs. tank duels in the first third or so of the clock. If the Germans silence all the Russian guns with most of their early armor intact they are usually in good shape for the rest. They still have to watch the knock out points and losses to their light armor in particular.

I'd be interested in a full post mortem after your game including comment from the Russian commander on what use he got out of the 8 inches, what he tried and how well it fared, etc.

[Chargin Smith]

Jason C: Thanks for the info. One last question, does the game have an Editor?

[JasonC]

Sure, for making maps and designing scenarios. You can't edit the stats of the units themselves (beyond things like their experience, leader ratings, ammo etc) - I mean you can't rejigger a Panther into an M-1 tank by editing internal numbers used in the simulation. But you can create custom maps endlessly, decide the forces in any given fight, when they arrive, where, etc, etc.

[Chargin Smith]

So I could edit unit experience, leader and ammo ratings of individual units? Does that include strength of units?

[JasonC]

What is a unit's "strength"?

No, basically.

Units in CM are individual vehicles or guns, and squads of infantry, or weapons teams with a single support weapon (MG, mortar, bazooka, whatever).

The squads of infantry come in great variety as to nationality, parent formation type and date, which affects the squad size and small arms weapon mix. One squad type will have 2 light machine guns, 1 submachinegun, and 7 bolt action rifles for example, while another may have 1 light machine gun, 3 submachineguns, 1 automatic rifle, and 7 bolt action rifles.

You can't create new squad types, they are what they are. But there are lots of them so you can pick the type closest to what you want.

The firepower of a squad is the sum of the firepower of its individual small arms, each with its own range breakdown. (LMGs "use up" one member besides the gunner, as the assistant gunner basically).

In action, these squads take individual man losses, randomly.

You can start of force with some level of casualties, which means the squads will be "docked" members randomly to reach say 20% prior casualties, to reflect prior combat. You can't fine tune this, though if you want to be silly you could do it over and over and pick an outcome you like.

There really isn't any point in doing this, though. For any real scenario you want to make, the editor suffices.

What you can't do is hack the editor to make 48 different new games based on the engine that have nothing to do with WW II in the east. Though people have made extensive "mods" that "fake" WW II in the pacific, or Nam, or whatever - they are not changing the underlying small arms or their firepower values, they are just approximating the theaters they want, for a few scenarios only, with their nearest equivalents in CM.

Presumably I just don't understand the question or what you actually want to do.

[Chargin Smith]

Actually, you answered my questions and I appreciate it. The unit strength to me meant modding weapons effects such as increasing range, hit value, hard and soft defense values similar to Battlefronts SC2 edit capability.

[Michael Emrys]

The unit strength to me meant modding weapons effects such as increasing range, hit value, hard and soft defense values similar to Battlefronts SC2 edit capability.

And that you cannot do without hacking the code. And even if you could do that, who knows what other problems it might introduce in the play of the game. In other words, more trouble than it is likely to be worth.

Michael

[jtcm2]

Would anyone like to play me in "Eight is Enough", in PBEM ? I play steadily, but not, alas (work and family obligations) terribly fast. But I keep turns coming, even as I lose.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Would anyone like to play me in "Eight is Enough", in PBEM ? I play steadily, but not, alas (work and family obligations) terribly fast. But I keep turns coming, even as I lose.

OK send me a setup to the email address in my profile and I will give it another run through.

[Chargin Smith]

Michael, thanks for the response!

[Der Alte Fritz]

Results of my H2H run through.

Minor Allied Vistory.

By the end the Germans had 2 Tigers, 2 PzIIIN, 2 PzIV and 1 PzIIIJ inside the village and a platoon of infantry gradually clearing out the trenches. One PzIIIJ went up the hill and had started to eliminate the over watch position back up by HMG and mortars from the balka fire support group.

German attack never really faltered once the reinforcing Tigers arrived, just drove forward while the infantry had a harder time dodging the mortar and MG fire but did get the Tiger platoon up to the wire and another platoon from the balka group into the village.

Might have got a draw but a FT killed a PzIIIN in the last move.

Never really bothered by the 8" guns, one salvo fell on the original attack group as they advanced, another fell on the balka trench position - in both cases we had just moved through the spot a minute before - another took a swipe at the Tigers but was out by 50m as the Tigers stayed away from the road and then moved fast up to the wire. Fire was 'walked' around but the 5 minute delay was too long. Another two TRP outside the village position would probably have made all the difference.

cheers

[JasonC]

Sounds like some balance issues - that performance probably should be a German tactical victory, unless they lost a lot of halftracks you haven't mentioned. Perhaps I should reduce the Allied bonus (currently set equal to their fortification points, basically) in return for a couple additional TRPs.

How did the SPWs fare? And can be get some comment from the Russian side?

[Der Alte Fritz]

Lost all but 4 of the SPW (basically all the heavy weapons group survived.)

From the Russian side, the initial gun battle was down to sure bad luck and most of the PzIV group should have died. A more keyholed position for the gun at the rear would have helped. Reinforcements for the balka arrived too late and so never got into trenches and died under tank fire in the brush. Had two decent attempts to drop 8" fire on TRPs but the Tiger group were through the TRP zone so fast - once spotted, fire was moved onto the nearest TRP but that move the Tigers moved from their start point to the TRP, the next move they were well past it and by the fire actually landed, were out of damage range. Tried to walk fire backwards but with five minute delay this meant that fire only reached just outside the wire of the village position by the end of the scenario. Pioneers start too far back to get into decent position in time and both sections were spotted early before they could throw their satchel charges and wiped out by mass return tank fire.

[samba_liten]

Its a bit late, and i realize that the scenario is already made, but in case anyone wants it here are some figures.

SS-Division "Totenkopf"

(Feb43)

From Schiffer Military History - Panzertruppen Vol.2 - Germany's Tank Force 1943-45

71 PzIII(lg), 10 PzIII(75), 22 PzIV(lg), 9 PzVI, 9 PzBef

PS

Sorry for reviving the thread from page 5...

Edit: spelling.

[husker98]

It is the start of the Eastern Front deployment that I am interested in ie the fighting around Kharkov in March 1943.

"In Early February 1943 Totenkopf was transferred back to the Eastern Front as part of Erich von Manstein's Army Group South. The division, as a part of SS-Obergruppenführer Paul Hausser's II SS Panzerkorps, took part in the Third Battle of Kharkov, blunting the Soviet General Konev's offensive. During this campaign, Theodor Eicke, while flying above enemy lines in a Fiesler Storch spotter aircraft, was shot down and killed. The division mounted an assault to break through enemy lines and recover their commander's body, and thereafter Eicke's body was buried with full military honours. Hermann Priess succeeded Eicke as commander."

I have an account of the fighting around Kharkov from Vizh which recounts the actions of a Russian Infantry Battalion engaged against Totenkopf. It refers to 'heavy tanks' which I took to be PzIV.

yes they would most likely be Panzer IV's with armor skirts maybe.

Totenkopf didn't have many Tigers yet. And from what i have read most Tigers during the Kharkov counter offensive where with Leibstanderte or Das Reich.

[George MC]

No side skirts on the Panzer IVs in early Feb - they would be what the Germans called 'PzIV Specials' and as the majority of the tank fleet at the time was Panzer IIIs then in comparison the Panzer IVs were classed as a 'heavy' tank although with the increasing use of Tigers also around this time that description of the Panzer IV long was becoming dated.

[MetalGudde]

Does anyone know what division this tank are from (turrent nr 401). I took it from a youtube movie as I building a diorama of kharkov winter 1943 and I like to know if this tank could be a totenkopf division tank. Alternate I have pics of tank with number 525, 505 and 728. I hope to get some help.

[George MC]

I'll take a stab at them- although they are very small images.

Th first top shot shows a Panzer IV of the I./Pz Regt 27 of the 19th panzer Division at Starobjelsk (from Restayn Battle of Kharkov page 36). Bottom shot of same image shows same panzer followed by a Panzer III N.

The middle shot looks to be a Panzer IV from I./7./SS-Pz.Rgt. LSSAH in Kharkov. That company was commanded by Rudolf von Ribbentrop. There is a sequence of shots in Restayn's Battle of Kharkov on page 348 and 349 that show this panzer in action.

Cheery!

George

[MetalGudde]

Sorry for the poor size of the pics, they are bigger but the size is been limited here. Do you have any picture on "Pz IV totenkopf" from kharkov feb/mars 1943. I making a diorama of the third battle and I have a Pz IV. Or if you know any turrent number on a tank from that battle. Thanks for you quick response George.

The IV tank with "731" is totenkopf (Kampfgruppe Kunstmann) the men sitting on it refers to 3. SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Totenkopf". So I maybe use that number if you dont have any better solution.

I'll take a stab at them- although they are very small images.

Th first top shot shows a Panzer IV of the I./Pz Regt 27 of the 19th panzer Division at Starobjelsk (from Restayn Battle of Kharkov page 36). Bottom shot of same image shows same panzer followed by a Panzer III N.

The middle shot looks to be a Panzer IV from I./7./SS-Pz.Rgt. LSSAH in Kharkov. That company was commanded by Rudolf von Ribbentrop. There is a sequence of shots in Restayn's Battle of Kharkov on page 348 and 349 that show this panzer in action.

Cheery!

George