SS Pz Gr Div Totenkopf March 1943

[Der Alte Fritz]

What tanks and vehicles would they have been using at this stage of the War?

[Drager]

Order of Battle – As of 1943

Regimental Headquarters

SS Panzergrenadier Regiment 5 Totenkopf (often incorrectly named "Thule") (Regiment 1 was redesignated Regiment 5 Thule on 22 October 1943, one of several redesignations.

I.Battalion

II.Battalion

III. Battalion

SS Panzergrenadier Regiment 6 Theodor Eicke (Formerly Regiment 3 Theodor Eicke)

I. Battalion

II. Battalion

III .Battalion

SS Panzer Regiment 3

I. Battalion

II. Battalion

SS Panzerjäger Battalion 3

SS Sturmgeschütz Battalion 3

SS Motorized Artillery Regiment 3

SS Flak Battalion 3

SS Motorized Signals Battalion 3

SS Motorized Reconnaissance Battalion 3

SS Motorized Pioneer Battalion 3

SS Dina 3

SS Field Hospital 3

SS Combat Reporter Platoon 3

SS Military Police Troop 3

SS Reserve Battalion 3

""SS Panzergrenadier divisions Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Totenkopf were to be formed with a full regiment of tanks rather than only a battalion. This meant that the SS Panzergrenadier divisions were full-strength Panzer divisions in all but name. They each also received nine Tiger tanks, which were formed into the heavy panzer companies."

Here's a start, I'm having trouble finding the EXACT vehicle types at the moment.

[Schrullenhaft]

These are some of the AFVs that 3. SS Pz Gr had in June 1943 according to an OKH report. I would assume that the March 1943 OOB would have been somewhat similar:

Panzer III "long gun" (III J (late)) - 52 in service - 63 total on hand

Panzer III "command tanks" (Pz.Bf.Wg. III) - 7 in service - 9 total on hand

Panzer IV "short gun" (IV F1 L/24) - 5 in service - 8 total on hand

Panzer IV L/43 (IV F2) - 11 in service - 15 total on hand

Panzer IV L/48 (IV G) - 24 in service - 29 total on hand

Panzer VI (Tiger)- 10 in service - 15 total on hand (these were issued right before 'Citadel' and not on hand for Kharkov)

Panzerjaegers (75mm Marder II - probably SdKfz 131) - 11 in service/total

Stugs L/48 (III G early or III F/8) - 28 in service/total

I've seen pictures of LSSAH in Kharkov March '43 with Panzer II's and Marder III H's also.

[Der Alte Fritz]

It is the start of the Eastern Front deployment that I am interested in ie the fighting around Kharkov in March 1943.

"In Early February 1943 Totenkopf was transferred back to the Eastern Front as part of Erich von Manstein's Army Group South. The division, as a part of SS-Obergruppenführer Paul Hausser's II SS Panzerkorps, took part in the Third Battle of Kharkov, blunting the Soviet General Konev's offensive. During this campaign, Theodor Eicke, while flying above enemy lines in a Fiesler Storch spotter aircraft, was shot down and killed. The division mounted an assault to break through enemy lines and recover their commander's body, and thereafter Eicke's body was buried with full military honours. Hermann Priess succeeded Eicke as commander."

I have an account of the fighting around Kharkov from Vizh which recounts the actions of a Russian Infantry Battalion engaged against Totenkopf. It refers to 'heavy tanks' which I took to be PzIV.

[JasonC]

Each of 1SS, 2SS, and 3SS were given a Tiger company before the Manstein counteroffensive. They were originally assigned in December 1942 and January 1943, and all 3 were sent to the eastern front with the divisions and took part in the offensive. PD Grossdeutschland also got its Tiger company at this time.

These companies were smaller in Tigers than the later Kursk era 14 tank companies, and used a mix of Tigers and Panzer IIIs with 75L24 guns. Each company had 9 Tigers and 10 Panzer IIIs at their original TOE strength. The revision of all of these individual divisional heavy tank companies to the 14 Tiger standard occurred from May until the outbreak of Kursk.

The bulk of the division's armor at this time, therefore, would be mixed Panzer IV longs and Panzer III longs. But they did have a handful of the cats, working with late model short 75 Panzer IIIs.

I hope this helps.

[jtcm]

How does a mixed Tiger / Pz III Co. fight ?

To help me visualize: how would I use such a Co. in a CMBB fight, say on the attack ? Should I hang back with the Tigers (say in 3 plts), and push forward with the PzIIIs, moving with overwatch ? Should I do it the other way round, with Tiger front armour leading the way and (short) 75s in overwatch ? Should I mix (say a group of Tigers in overwatch, and two mixed fighting groups, with Tigers to deal with armour, PzIIIs to support my infantry ?)

[Michael Emrys]

How does a mixed Tiger / Pz III Co. fight ?

I would be interested in the answer to this question as well. What little I have read states that the Pz. IIIs were there as support to the Tigers, but does not detail what their duties were. I have proceeded on the assumption that the intended practice would be the same as early war support tanks, i.e. providing smoke and HE against threats, such as soft AT gun positions, leaving the Tigers to handle harder targets, like bunkers and other tanks.

Michael

[Schrullenhaft]

Regarding the Tiger Ie's, I was incorrect it appears. Here is a paragraph from one web source:

In January 1943 the 3. SS-Panzer-Regiment “Totenkopf” received their first Tiger Ie tanks. In February 1943 these first Tigers were sent to the eastern front with the newly trained crews. The unit assembles in Poltava with nine Tiger Ie tanks. In late February it was immediately in action against the Soviets around Pavlograd. It supported 2. SS-Panzergrenadierdivision “Das Reich” during early March. On 9 March they joined the counter-offensive against Kharkov. On 17 March the company returned to 3. SS-Panzergrenadierdivision “Totenkopf”.

Some other details that Jason had earlier mentioned:

Effective on 15 November 1942, three schwere Panzer Kompanien were established, one each for SS-Panzer Regiments 1, 2 and 3. Each Kompanie was to have nine Tigers and ten Pz.Kpfw.III. A total of 28 Tigers and 30 Pz.Kpfw.III were issued in December 1942 and January 1943. Sent to the Eastern Front, all three companies took part in the Manstein's counter offensive to retake Kharkov in February March 1943 in which they lost five Tigers.

An order dated 22 April 1943 authorized these three companies to be upgraded to 14 Tigers and by this same order the three companies became an organic part of the schwere Panzer Abteilung of the I.SS-Panzer Korps. However, the three companies remained with their Regiments at the front. In May 1943, 17 Tigers were shipped to the front bringing the total to 13 with the 13.sKp/SS-PzRgt.1, 14 with the sKp/SS-PzRgt.2, and 15 with the 9.Kp/SS-PzRgt.3.

Here's an online Adobe Flash Player based view of The Life Times of a Tiger Tank Battalion Part 1 (the book is actually a website Tiger Tank Battalions during WWII). What is interesting is the image on page 3 that shows the organization of the 'zugs' with the Panzer III N's. This would have been the ('on paper') organization of 9.Kp/SS-PzRgt.3. (supposedly) for Kharkov. Although as the text states above that image, the Tiger formations "...experimented with every possible combination of Pz.Kpfw. III and Tigers within their schwere Panzer-Kompanien".

The caption to the next image of a Pz III N mentions that they were ".. used to provide HE support for the schwere Panzer-Kompanien (Tiger)."

[Vark]

Not to mention the twenty additional MG's the Pz III's provided. I certainly know that when trying to simulate a mixed heavy company, the most successful tactic was to maintain an extended wedge with the Pz IIIs trailing in the flanks and making up the base. I still managed to lose a third of the force though!

[JasonC]

The Panzer IIIs definitely trail the Tigers. The Tigers have the job of dominating the armor war, forcing all enemy tanks to hide or die. They can overmatch any enemy ATGs that show themselves. The assumption is that this will provide a bubble of local armor impunity, that the defenders will "go quiet", hold their fire, skulk out of LOS, etc. Then the armor needs to smash the entire defense to exploit that success.

That is where the Panzer IIIs come in. They double the anti infantry firepower of the whole formation, for no cost in extra Tigers. Area fire at likely enemy positions, hosing down every woodline with coaxial MGs, shooting the grenadiers forward, etc. They can help even in the fight against enemy guns by direct fire at them or by smoking some while the Tigers overmatch others (breaking up flanking cross fires), but that is secondary. The main issue is to avoid the limited HE ammo depth of just and handful of Tigers, making the whole attack weak against a hidden infantry defense.

It is an economy of force measure overall, of course. The downside is the Panzer IIIs are not invulnerable to enemy ATGs from the front (though the late IIIs, at range and hull down, are nearly so against Russian 76mm in CMBB). But the idea was at least as much to get reasonable battlefield use of III chassis vehicles as any help to the Tigers.

Understand, longer term, the Germans did not consider the 75L24 Panzer III a success and switched all III chassis production to StuGs (and to a lesser extent, other SP speciality items) to enable every AFV to carry a weapon that could reliably kill a T-34 at range.

In late 1942 and early 1943, the 75L24 III was the last attempt to get a workable turreted gun tank out of the III chassis, given the space limitations of its limited turret ring size (originally designed for a 37mm gun and already stretch to the limit to fit a 50L60). They recognized that the 75L24 (even with some HEAT ammo) was an inadequate armor war weapon. So pairing them with Tigers was thought to cover their weakness - Tigers were going to win the local armor war wherever they were, regardless, so the limited AT ability of any turreted III just wouldn't matter tactically. That was the thought.

[Der Alte Fritz]

The reason that I am interested in this account is that it is a relatively rare Soviet account at Battalion level. It can be read at http://web.archive.org/web/20050911174927/www.redarmystudies.net/listing.htm look for No9 1983.

In short it describes how on the 12th March 1943 a battalion of the 1288th RR with 324 soldiers, 244 rifles, 36 submachine guns, 8 DP and 6 Maxim machine guns, 4 AT Rifles, 2 45mm AT guns and 8 82mm mortars backed up by 4 76mm Divisional guns (acting both as artillery and in the last resort as AT guns) and 2 203mm guns. This group occupies a patch of open steppe above a small vilage of Rogan on the Kharkov road. They were one of a string of isolated battalion positions along the river trying to stop the German advance from cutting off the Soiet units leaving the town.

They hold out all day, being bombed by aircraft, attack by tanks and Pz Grenadiers and finally pull back that night after being attacked by 6 heavy tanks that fially break into the position. They claim to have have been attacked by a Battalion of tanks and a Regt of Infantry and destroyed 17 tanks and 300 soldiers. This was not a prepared position so would have had trenches but few mines of fixed defences, so this seems a very good score.

I can hear the harumpfing even now from defenders of the SS honour. From the account it seems the main German attack went in 2km to the north against another battalion at Rogan Farm which is pushed back. This attack further south may have been seen as a flank guard action and then later a more determined effort to clear the road.

Does anyone know of any accounts from the other side of the hill.

[jtcm]

What kind of armour is the Battn facing ?

[Der Alte Fritz]

well it looks like PzIII long and PzIV long and then later on some Tigers with PzIII short in support. At this stage of the battle the Bn was reinforced by 6 T-34s but the main factor seems to have been the artillery driving off the infantry and the Tigers then not being able to get forward due to possible tank hunter assault.

[JasonC]

8 inch guns.

Serious additional issue.

[JasonC]

If that is too laconic, consider the formation has 6 ATGs, 4 medium and 2 light, that form the AT net against ordinary Panzers, but are not dangerous to Tigers. The ordinary infantry heavy weapons combined with the open terrain make infantry approach difficult; armor want to lead. The ordinary tanks find the ATGs somewhat dangerous, and rather than try to "trade them off", the attackers call for the right weapon against that defense - heavy Tigers.

But the Russians have 2 203mm howitzers supporting the position. With a range of 16 kilometers, firing 200 lb HE shells, each up to a round a minute. Blast from those is heavy enough to send all infantry to earth certainly, but it isn't exactly fun or safe for tanks either.

While the actual likelihood of a direct hit kill is low, Tigers would not be likely to hang around under an 8 inch howitzer barrage if they could help it. (There is a dead Elephant at Kursk that was KOed by a direct hit on the top of the superstructure by 8 inch HE - if it did hit it would be lethal). Exterior damage (especially to the running gear etc) would be considerably more likely.

Stripping any accompanying infantry was probably overdetermined, but the extra factor may well have been that Tigers would not stick around to hunt for defending ATGs, because lingering for half an hour even, under 8 inch howitzer fire, is not something you can expect to get away with, even in a heavy tank. You'd back off and try someplace else, unless or until you could arrange counterbattery etc.

[Vark]

Jason, was the deployment of such large calibre artillery SOP in the Red Army, or was its deployment due to intelligence that such a an armored assault was likely? As for Tigers and heavy guns, in Italy a barrage of 5.5 inch was often used to try to force the beasts to relocate, the bigger the tank the more surface area it occupies.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Yes I would go with the 8" gun as a deterrent. The account mentions the guns firing on a number of different targets, harassing fire on the cross roads, defensive fire in front of the position, etc. So this was aimed fire by a OP rather than some sort of planned barrage.

Reminds me of George McC's Strachwitz scenario where fire from 8" guns came in from the cruiser Prinz Eugen into a town full of Russian Shermans. Lots of killed vehicles but also lots of mobility hits from near misses.

[jtcm]

Could we have a scenario ?

[Michael Emrys]

Certainly. Go right ahead.

Michael

[jtcm]

Any suggestions for the attacking force ? The article's figures should probably be given a haircut

[Der Alte Fritz]

Haircut - yes or no? Remember you have to look at it from the Russian's perspective, to them a battalion was 300 men, a regiment 900 men, a division 6,000. Tank Battalions field 21 tanks on a good day which is less than a German Company. Units 60% under establishment = pretty normal.

So applying that sort of logic a German Regiment becomes a Battalion with a company of tanks in support and a platoon of Tigers. Given this force was also attacking the Farm to the north as the main point of attack, this flank guard may have been even smaller.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Have just dowloaded the topographic map for the area and you can see the importance of this little village as it lies on the main road just south east of Kharkov. Pretty flat terrain with gentle slopes but to the west of the village there is a pretty deep ravine that would have covered the left and centre companies positions. Germans approaching the village on the main road would have had to cross a skyline and been fired on Russians hidden at the bottom of the ravine. Given this it makes sense as to the Germans next move which was to attack along the river through the right hand company position and so outflank the ravine from the rear.

[Der Alte Fritz]

There are several mentions of this battle and the tank battle preceding it (by 2nd Guards Cavalry Corps at Rogan railway station).

The German force was:

KG Baum:

Totenkopf PzGr Regt

1/SS Pz Regt 3

SS Aufl. Bn 3

Assault Guns in support

IV/SS Art Regt 3

the force sent to Rogan was the flank guard of this force and consisted of III/Totenkopf Regt and 1/SS Pz Regt 3 supported by the artillery while the rest of the force attacked the river crossing to the north.

Mentions on page 312, 317 and 318 of Nipes book Last Victory in Russia

[JasonC]

My take on this engagement is now available at the Proving Grounds -

http://www.the-proving-grounds.com/scenario_details_link.html?sku=1640

Comments welcome, here on through TPG feedback.

The scenario is titled "Eight is Enough" - 8 inch howitzers in this case.

Enjoy...

[Cuirassier]

I just finished playing it as the Soviets against the AI. *Spoilers below*

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I left all of my units in the same positions that they were in during the setup phase. I waited for the entire Pz. IV platoon to crest and move 30m or so over the LOS break. MGs and mortars buttoned the tanks and then I let fly with the 2 7.62cm AT guns. The platoon was wiped out in a couple of minutes and the AT guns went back into hiding. At 800m distance vet AT guns are quite deadly in trenches.

The AI then pushed a platoon of infantry over the hill along with some halftracks. The ATGs opened up on the halftracks since the AI did not have any overwatch set up. Maxims forced his infantry to clump up in the brush and my 8 inch spotter called fire on the nearest TRP and then adjusted fire to on top of the platoon. Maxims and 82mm mortars kept the platoon hemmed in the brush. A single salvo from the 8 inch guns sent the platoon running and brewed an unfortunate halftrack nearby.

Two Pz IIIs showed up on my left flank with another panzergrenadier platoon a few minutes into the game. The panzers were readily knocked out by the 7.62cm ATGs; those 50 mm guns are just too dinky and one AI Pz III thought it was smart do drive length ways along the crest, resulting in the tank getting brewed after a flank penetration. The panzergrenadier platoon pushed on and came down the reverse slope into the firesack formed by my Rifle platoon in the gully. An HQ and one squad were eliminated outright, while the other two squads wormed their way into cover. Conveniently some crack recon guys showed up at this time and eliminated the pinned men with a quick counterattack.

Meanwhile I continued to drop 8 inch shells on the enemy's side of the hill, since that is where he seemed to be gathering reinforcements. After a couple minutes of fun slaughter, I exited the game.

Overall it was fun but easy against the AI. But that is expected; the AI does not know how to attack. Either way though the Soviet defense is certainly powerful. Nothing the Germans have can afford to stand still in plain view for long.