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WWII Ammunition Loadout Questions


eliw00d

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I am doing research for a game modification, and found some extremely useful information archived in this forum that answered a few questions already. However, some still remain, and I was hopeful that I could get them answered.

In a thread here, I found out that the general distribution for a 75mm Sherman variant was 70% HE, 20% AP and 10% WP. This was actually very close to an estimate we already had in place, just reversed for HE/AP.

Where can I find an approximate loadout for more vehicles, from other nations?

Also, how would specialty munitions factor into the distribution, such as HVAP, APDS and APCR?

I also found out that the general issue of HVAP was 1-3 per Tanks 5-10 per Tank Destroyer and for APDS was 5-10 per Tank. How many rounds of APDS would be distributed to anti-tank crews (both towed and self-propelled), and would the American 57mm Gun M1 have about the same issued to them?

I found that Panthers and Tigers would generally have 1-2 rounds of APCR, would they be the only ones using them? I think I saw that 5cm PaK38 crews still used APCR through the end of the war, would any other PaK crews use APCR or was that restricted somehow?

I probably have more questions, as I am very eager to research these details for use in our game modification. I thank you in advance for any information that can be shed on the subject!

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I can't say for US AT guns, but I know the 1st Airborne 6-pounder AT guns that went to Arnhem only had 3-5 rounds of APDS per gun and similar was issued to the 75mm pack howizters of the 1st Airlanding Light Regt. It was very scarce at that time and besides which, the HE shot was generally effective at the extreme close ranges they were using it.

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I can't say for US AT guns, but I know the 1st Airborne 6-pounder AT guns that went to Arnhem only had 3-5 rounds of APDS per gun

Yeah, as I recall that was about the standard issue for towed 6-pr (of all flavours) in Normandy too. As I recall, the US 57mm/6-pr typically had 1-2 rounds each ... that info may be in one of the CMBO archives?

... and similar was issued to the 75mm pack howizters of the 1st Airlanding Light Regt. It was very scarce at that time ...

Really? APDS for the 75m How? I've never heard of that. I'd have thought that the MV was too low to make a kinetic AP round approximately worthless (hows typically use chemical AP such as HEAT or HESH).

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I can check when I am at home, but they definitely had rounds they referred to as "Tungsten" and they had a loadout of 2-3 per gun from memory. Again though, if you're using your 75 as an AT weapon, which did happen at Arnhem, the close range made MV not as relevant. They managed to knock out at least one Tiger with a 75mm pack, but we're talking at ranges of around 100 yards over open sights.

EDIT" Wiki says they were HEAT-T, sorry.

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Although the discussion is very interesting, could we please keep it on topic? I hope I don't offend anybody by saying that, but I'm doing this research and I'd like to get as much information on the subject matter as possible.

@Affentitten

I appreciate the info on the Parachute Anti-tank crews, that helps a lot.

@JonS

So regular (non-Parachute) crews had about 1-2 rounds of APDS for their 57mm/6-pounder? What about 17-pounder equipped? Same there?

Any ideas on what the distribution of rounds was for the 76mm variant of the Sherman? Or M10/M10Cs, M18s and M36s? Etc? Is there any data on what German tanks usually did for their distribution? Was it mostly AP, because they were on the defensive?

Thanks in advance.

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@JonS

So regular (non-Parachute) crews had about 1-2 rounds of APDS for their 57mm/6-pounder?

Hmm, not quite.

As you're no doubt aware, the US 57mm is essentially the same weapon as the UK 6-pr.

As far as I'm aware, all 6-pr in UK units (incl Cdn and Polish, presumably) were issued with 4-5 APDS rounds for the invasion of Normandy. I don't know about resupply, but suspect that they didn't have sufficient opportunities to fire the amount they had, let alone worry about getting more.

OTOH, as far as I recall, all/most/some 57mm in US units were supplied with 1-2 APDS rounds (in fact, I have this vague recollection that the US anti-tank crews who had *any* APDS had obtained them from friendly UK gunners)

What about 17-pounder equipped? Same there?

The 17-pr was the best A-Tk of the war, and severely overmatched any German armour. It's requirement for APDS was therefore limited. Some was made, but I have no idea about quantities, nor quantities issued.

IIRC the 17-pr mounted in the Sherman turret had a shorter barrel, and thus did need the extra oomph that APDS provided, but they paid for that greater punch in terms of reduced accuracy.

Any ideas on what the distribution of rounds was for the 76mm variant of the Sherman? Or M10/M10Cs, M18s and M36s? Etc? Is there any data on what German tanks usually did for their distribution? Was it mostly AP, because they were on the defensive?

Dunno. But Chamberlain's book/s would probably be as good a place as any to start.

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The 17-pr was the best A-Tk of the war, and severely overmatched any German armour. It's requirement for APDS was therefore limited. Some was made, but I have no idea about quantities, nor quantities issued.

I read somewhere that vehicles were given somewhere between 5-10 rounds of APDS, but they didn't specify which vehicles or anything. Have you ever heard anything like that?

Message #1, Paragraph 5:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/06/a2187506.shtml

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I'm off to the cricket tonight, but if I get a chance tomorrow I will have a look in some of my books and can probably get a number on the 6 and 17 pounder nominal loadouts. However as JonS says, what these loads might be spread out over a month of action in the field and re-supply would vary. The AP rounds of any sort were in limited supply and became scarcer as the war went on because of they were being depleted at a more rapid rate after Tiger phobia rampant.

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In a thread here, I found out that the general distribution for a 75mm Sherman variant was 70% HE, 20% AP and 10% WP. This was actually very close to an estimate we already had in place, just reversed for HE/AP.

Where can I find an approximate loadout for more vehicles, from other nations?

Also, how would specialty munitions factor into the distribution, such as HVAP, APDS and APCR?

I also found out that the general issue of HVAP was 1-3 per Tanks 5-10 per Tank Destroyer and for APDS was 5-10 per Tank. How many rounds of APDS would be distributed to anti-tank crews (both towed and self-propelled), and would the American 57mm Gun M1 have about the same issued to them?

You cannot count on any particular figure as being carved in stone. The loadout of a given tank/TD/ATG on a given day would depend on what the unit's commander and crews expected their needs were going to be, but much more importantly as some posters have already indicated, on what was available. Logistical support networks tried to maintain a supply of the various types in certain ratios, but that system could break down for any number of reasons. And I suppose the requests of unit commanders were sometimes respected, supply permitting.

BTW, since the differentiation in roles between tanks and TDs in US service in practice were not so clearly defined as envisioned, they sometimes found themselves swapping 76mm ammo. The tanks would give up HE and receive in turn HVAP. I've read nothing so far that suggests that this happened on a large scale however.

Michael

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You cannot count on any particular figure as being carved in stone. The loadout of a given tank/TD/ATG on a given day would depend on what the unit's commander and crews expected their needs were going to be, but much more importantly as some posters have already indicated, on what was available. Logistical support networks tried to maintain a supply of the various types in certain ratios, but that system could break down for any number of reasons. And I suppose the requests of unit commanders were sometimes respected, supply permitting.

BTW, since the differentiation in roles between tanks and TDs in US service in practice were not so clearly defined as envisioned, they sometimes found themselves swapping 76mm ammo. The tanks would give up HE and receive in turn HVAP. I've read nothing so far that suggests that this happened on a large scale however.

Michael

I understand, but I'd like to find any information, whether typical or atypical, just to get an idea of what we can use in our mod. I also know that doctrine at the time was for tanks to break through enemy lines and support the infantry, while tank destroyers were meant to take out enemy tanks behind the infantry and tanks...yet that changed quite often on the field. However, when you try to incorporate everything that happened in the war, it becomes much harder to be authentic because there are so many variables. I'm just looking for whatever I can get, and then I'll compile all the information and try to make sense of it in game terms. For instance, knowing things like the Sherman having a 70/20/10 split for cannon rounds is bliss, because that really helps us assign numbers in game. The availability of all the specialty rounds and the number issued was never a sure thing, but a general number from D-Day through the end of the war could at least give us a percentage to further split the above. That's all.

I read something in these forums about an anti-tank commander suggesting an increase in APDS for his 57mm, after seeing its value in battle. They were actually given 6 rounds on paper, and he suggested 30, IIRC. The fact that he had 6 on paper is at least a good indication that we should be shooting for 6 out of so many rounds (thus a percentage).

I appreciate all the info so far, it's really helping. I may have to look into some Osprey books and what not to get more percentages, it seems. Again, I know it wasn't always the distribution, but that's where we can at least guess and come up with other options the player can use (like sacrificing HE for HVAP like you suggested).

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I may have to look into some Osprey books and what not to get more percentages, it seems. Again, I know it wasn't always the distribution, but that's where we can at least guess and come up with other options the player can use (like sacrificing HE for HVAP like you suggested).

If you ever want to really bust your ass on this—and I am not insisting you have to—you could poke around to see if you can come up with the daily logs of the supply organizations of the various armies. US and UK figures might still be around somewhere, but I'm doubtful you could find anybody else's without a lifetime of searching.

Michael

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If you ever want to really bust your ass on this—and I am not insisting you have to—you could poke around to see if you can come up with the daily logs of the supply organizations of the various armies. US and UK figures might still be around somewhere, but I'm doubtful you could find anybody else's without a lifetime of searching.

Michael

Well, I don't know if I want to get that in depth on the subject, I was kind of hoping there'd be more information out there like the Osprey book, with the percentages. I know it's probably not that simple, but that was definitely a great find. If anything, we could probably just use that as a base and guess as to what a crew might have based on doctrine and what not. So, for example, a 76mm Sherman might have a 70/20/10% split in favor of AP/HE/HVAP (50/14/7 rounds respectively) or something like that (since the 76mm HE performed less favorably tha the 75mm). I would assume that Germans would probably have a similar split, but probably more in favor of AP than HE, but I don't know anything about that other than simple guessing.

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I seem to remember that the boardgame "Patton's Best" (I *think* from Avalon Hill but I'm not 100% certain) had charts for average loadouts for different types of Shermans. How accurate those were I have no clue. I'd post an example but I can't find my copy, dang....

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I seem to remember that the boardgame "Patton's Best" (I *think* from Avalon Hill but I'm not 100% certain) had charts for average loadouts for different types of Shermans. How accurate those were I have no clue. I'd post an example but I can't find my copy, dang....

That would be a great find! Especially if the loadout for a 75mm Sherman matched up with what I found in these forums (from the Osprey book). Anybody have this game lying around?

Actually, a quick stop by Boardgamegeek brought this to my attention:

http://files.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/1nel637qpb/MiscellaneousTables.pdf?

Is that kind of what you meant?

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Unfortunately I really don't remember :( The game had a bunch of charts and an actual tabletop board from what I recall, perhaps it's there and not in the rulebook. Of course the possibility exists that I simply remember wrong. I do remember playing around with loadouts for sure, but now I am beginning to doubt if they were historical or not...

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So, for example, a 76mm Sherman might have a 70/20/10% split in favor of AP/HE/HVAP (50/14/7 rounds respectively) or something like that (since the 76mm HE performed less favorably tha the 75mm).

That would not be likely unless the Shermans were specifically expecting to tangle with German armor that day. Even if the 76 HE round was less effective than the 75, it would still normally constitute the bulk of a daily load out. The reason being that normally they would be far more likely to be encountering soft rather than armored opponents.

I would assume that Germans would probably have a similar split, but probably more in favor of AP than HE...

Again, not likely for exactly the same reason. Their PzJgr troops on the other hand would be very likely to have such a mix.

Michael

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In the absence of specific numbers of rounds available, you may as well just take a random number daily, pivoting around a "reasonable" minimum number. It amounts to the same thing. Daily ammo deliveries could vary with season and whether you were on the offensive or defensive...not to mention what was already in the pipeline being "pushed" to the front. Nothing I've read over the years made it sound like the "super" rounds were ever in any great supply, however...

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OK, this is for British Airborne AT units:

"Both types were well provided with the new and still secret “Sabot” (APDS) ammunition which could penetrate any German armour then known and, thus equipped, the 6-pounder with its lower profile was claimed to be the most effective anti-tank gun in service at the time. The 6-pounder traveled in a Horsa glider with its jeep, gun detachment and ammunition. The long barrel of the gun did not permit space for a trailer so the ammunition had to be accommodated in and around the towing jeep. Forty two rounds per gun were carried of which fifteen were normal armour piercing shot (APCBC) and twenty seven were Sabot (APDS). The 17-pounder, being longer and heavier, was carried in the larger Hamilcar glider along with its towing vehicle, a specially adapted Morris Commercial which carried the gun detachment and the ammunition consisting of twenty armour piercing (APCBC) and ten Sabot (APDS) rounds per gun.

I found this here but it's quoting the same book I was going to use anyway.

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It's a pretty good book and I have corresponded with the author years ago in search of some further details. There is a bit of wasted time at the start describing the purpose of Market Garden etc. Good lots of personnel details in the appendices including a break down of every gun crew in every troop.

Another one on this topic is Winged Gunners, but it's long out of print and I have been looking for a copy for years. By the time I had tracked down the author he had died.

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OK, this is for British Airborne AT units:

"Both types were well provided with the new and still secret “Sabot” (APDS) ammunition which could penetrate any German armour then known and, thus equipped, the 6-pounder with its lower profile was claimed to be the most effective anti-tank gun in service at the time. The 6-pounder traveled in a Horsa glider with its jeep, gun detachment and ammunition. The long barrel of the gun did not permit space for a trailer so the ammunition had to be accommodated in and around the towing jeep. Forty two rounds per gun were carried of which fifteen were normal armour piercing shot (APCBC) and twenty seven were Sabot (APDS). The 17-pounder, being longer and heavier, was carried in the larger Hamilcar glider along with its towing vehicle, a specially adapted Morris Commercial which carried the gun detachment and the ammunition consisting of twenty armour piercing (APCBC) and ten Sabot (APDS) rounds per gun.

I found this here but it's quoting the same book I was going to use anyway.

Excellent! That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for! Do you think Airlanding received higher priority, then? Or could I use that for regular and Royal Artillery as well?

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