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Holiday Bones, Norman Style


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heh... I knew SOMEONE would have to post something negative about the tester comment. I knew that before I even posted it. Thankfully, we have GSX here to be overtly negative and a right prat sometimes :D

I take it these are mostly the same testers that have 'loved' everything you have put out so far. And of course the same testers that are quick to shout down a naysayer on these boards if they dont like the game.

You really do try to get under people's skin for no other reason than to irritate, don't you? So what you're saying is that the people who have helped make CM:SF what is is today, including all the post release patches, have done a terrible job and it's through sheer luck that the game is in the state that it's in now?

Ive come to understand that these testers may not be the best set of guys to actually give you good feedback.....

So you think it would be better to have guys on our testing team that have a brain hemorrhage because we show a picture of a Tiger? Or people who have endless amount of negative things to say after the game is released, but don't say anything negative during testing?

The worst type of feedback we could possibly get is from the sort you deal with over at the other website. Complete utter negativity with zero objectivity, intellectually dishonest, lack perspective, and have no clue what the average gamer wants. If that's the sort of guy you think we should have on our testing team, I'm extremely pleased to say we have none on our testing team.

We value testers with different opinions, but with the skills to debate those differences in a way that is aimed at finding the best solution. Suckups are of little use to us so we don't have any on our testing team. Likewise, wacko negative nutters who live in some sort of parallel universe where abuse and selective reasoning is superior to rational discourse are also not a part of our team either.

We're quite happy with our testers and feel quite privileged to have them. In fact, the whole community owes them their thanks, not their scorn. It's a lot of hard work that often goes largely unthanked, especially by the players who enjoy the games they work so hard to make shine.

Thi is indeed something new to me as you have always stated that the great beauty of cm-2 was that you can work concurrently on many projects. What your saying now is that you obviously cant and a Module has been sacrificed for a game, or 2 games.

There are limitations in terms of time. We've worked through some of the bottlenecks, but some of them will remain until after Afghanistan and NATO are complete because major code changes were made that are not backwards compatible.

I get the feeling from what you say that you might not even know yourself whats going on?

Egads... did you get some bad eggnog yesterday? Of course I know EXACTLY what is going on because I live this every day of my life. I can tell you the exact status of everything that is going on right now. That doesn't mean I have the magical ability to make everything happen exactly as we would like them to be. Reality is a fickle bitch, in case you weren't aware of it.

Far too many contradictory statements have been made regarding the CM-2 family of games. Now NATO may not be out for another six months?

There have been NO contradictory statements. Slipstreaming doesn't mean we're working on everything all at the same time every day of the week. NATO is quite far along already, it's just that the bottleneck that is holding it up took months to work around. All development going forward will avoid these bottlenecks. I've mentioned this many times already, so it shouldn't come as a shock.

So far everything seems to be taking at least twice as long as your stating. Your postponing and almost abandoning CMSF content to play catch up on CMN and CMAfg. When the NATO module appears it will more than likely have been a year from the UK module, which was a year from the Marines. Im not even sure you should complete the NATO one to be honest as I dont think anyone will want it after CMN arrives. In fact, if CMN IS as good as the testers say it is, I predict that no one will want to play with CMSF as it will be redundant because of the new features added to CMN.

Of course you are entitled to your opinions, but if we had such a completely negative and dour outlook on life we'd have closed up shop years ago. Probably during CMBO development when people like you said we couldn't pull it off. Bumps in development, missing deadlines, etc. are normal. CMBO was late, CMBB was late, CMAK was late, CM:SF was late, CM: Marines was late, CM: British Forces was late, CM: NATO is late, CM: Normandy is late, and everything else we ever do will likely be late. We are, if anything, consistent :D

Modern and WW2 combat appeal to both common and specialized groups of players. There are some WW2 players that will never play modern, no matter what. There are some modern players that will not play WW2, no matter what. Game features have less to do with the appeal than the content itself. We've always understood this and our experiences thus far with CM:SF have completely reinforced that notion.

Steve

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You have no idea of the discussions that go on, so don't ascribe me a position.

That reminds me Other Means. I've been meaning to ask that you cease being so damned objective and start kissing our butts. It's so damned annoying to have you express yourself clearly and logically when we obviously don't want to improve the game. You're a major annoyance and I regret the day I invited you into the testing group so I could convert you into a mindless drone. You have been warned :D

GSX pointed out one opinion, which has to be read seriously. I think he is right, when he writes, that the NATO-Modul will sell better, if it will be released before the Normandy-Module.

I do agree with that, though only in the short term as people obviously have less spending cash than they once did and purchases are often made with more space between them as possible. So people who like both genres, but have to be careful about spending, would definitely benefit from there being space between the two releases.

To stop the NATO-Modul for a while to develop also a Afghanistan-Modul really wondered me. Maybe i´m wrong, but i think, there are many more people out there, who want to play the German, Canadian and Dutch armies than the Russians. :confused:

I think Wengart came up with a pretty good explanation for part of what's going on internally at Battlefront...

I think you have to remember that CM:A is the first time? that BF.C has licensed out a CM engine. So it's important that BF.C shows that they are serious about 3rd party CM games, and are willing to support them. Even if that means pushing back NATO.

Correct. We only have x amount of time in a day to spend. Afghanistan is so very nearly done that it makes more sense for us to help our Russian partners get it out ASAP. Unfortunately, there is a particular bottleneck which we've since fixed which can not be retrofitted into the existing Afghanistan development. It would cost us more time to do that then to finish it with the existing stuff in place.

IIRC its been known for quite a while now that NATO and Normandy where going to be released fairly close together.

Yup. The reality is both are coming out later than we had wanted.

What people have to remember is that development delays are a GOOD thing for you guys. The reason is that we're working very hard all the time (including Christmas Day in my case), so if we take more time to get a game out that means we're putting more effort into the game. Since the price won't go up for the customer because of this extra effort, this is extremely beneficial to the player in the end. Patience, however, has never been one of mankind's better qualities, so we are used to players having the contradictory wants of the game done sooner and yet done as best as it can be done.

We're very happy with how things are going, despite the delays. We're looking long term and the short term problems are simply things that need to be worked around. They aren't fatal, they aren't even significantly problematic for us long term. They are just problems that need to be solved and problem solving is 90% of what we do day in and day out.

Steve

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Here is a modest set of bones for the Holidays. I can't really send anybody lumps of coal, so even the ones on our naughty list will get to enjoy these. Sorry for those on the good list. Life isn't fair, obviously!

Arrh, I was free for almost two years.

Free from all the WW2 PBEM's that made my life a living hell ;)

But now when I see this I fear the worst...

I must resist to.... Nah, what the heck..

This is the best that happened since CMAK was announced!

Well, time to add this forum to the daily visits again :)

Perhaps we can continue on a game soon, what do you say Other Means? :P

--

Regards Folke

Sweden

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@ Battlefront (Steve):

GSX pointed out one opinion, which has to be read seriously. I think he is right, when he writes, that the NATO-Modul will sell better, if it will be released before the Normandy-Module.

Many here see the modern scenarios only as a pausing-stuff, before the real battles of WWII can be fought. Before i learned to love CMSF (after some patches came out with Marines and Britain), i had the same opinion. ;)

To stop the NATO-Modul for a while to develop also a Afghanistan-Modul really wondered me. Maybe i´m wrong, but i think, there are many more people out there, who want to play the German, Canadian and Dutch armies than the Russians. :confused:

Greets, MARS42

P.S. Great screenshots! :)

5-6 years we CM WW2 fans where dragged into CMSF. Now finaly the wait is over. So these kinds of posts are not making me happy.

Here' a pic of a recent Beta testers Brain storming session. As you can clearly see we are NOT a bunch of Fanbois...No matter What GSX/Gordie may think.

cheerleaders_wideweb__470x3170.jpg

These kind of post do make me happy. Where can I sign for Beta tester party's? :)

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...You're a major annoyance and I regret the day I invited you into the testing group...

Many a truth eh? ;)

Arrh, I was free for almost two years.

Free from all the WW2 PBEM's that made my life a living hell

But now when I see this I fear the worst...

I must resist to.... Nah, what the heck..

This is the best that happened since CMAK was announced!

Well, time to add this forum to the daily visits again

Perhaps we can continue on a game soon, what do you say Other Means?

--

Regards Folke

Sweden

Folke! Good to see you again mate. I'll line you up for the first PBEM.

Ha det! :D

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I take it these are mostly the same testers that have 'loved' everything you have put out so far. And of course the same testers that...

Good gravy, this displays a remarkable cluelessness.

The game's had twenty patches. Every one of them involved lobbying for causes, debating arguing and bickering, researching testing and begging. It would only be a slight exaggeration to say a quarter of the game's advances have involved 'cage matches' between disagreeing Beta testers. You think there's not enough criticism? I vaguely recall one "unnamed" Beta tester who offered only a drumbeat of the most mind-numbing negativity. It was a suicide risk working with the guy. Care to guess how much he contributed to the cause?

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Not having done any beta testing (well, Dan asked me if I wanted to way back with CMBB but I declined because I lack the time and probably the dedication as well), I get the impression that it's a lot more work than fun. Although I did criticize the scenarios in CMSF and Marines a bit I do appreciate all the hard work and dedication that our beta testing friends put into CM. Probably the quickest way to become a beta tester is to get into a PBEM game with me. I think at least two or three of my past opponents joined the beta test team (or joined Battlefront itself) mid game and ruined our matches! :P

Now then, for what I really wanted to post about, is there any chance that a 'delete' button could be added to the 'load / save' screen so that I can delete old game save files from inside the game? It's not a game breaker, but it would be a handy addition to have. I'm sure Charles could whip that up in a few seconds :D.

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On a serious note, the truth is that when we choose a tester to come on board the primary qualifications are:

1. Ability to communicate a position clearly, rationally, and productively.

2. Dedication to wanting to make the game better than it was when they started (this can take a variety of forms in addition to testing, such as artwork, scenario design, map making, etc.)

3. Fun to work with. If we can't have fun, then something is very wrong since this is a game after all :)

We don't care if someone comes up with no new ideas of their own as long as they are there to critique the ideas that are presented (by us or other testers). There is almost always some degree of disagreement, criticism, or suggestions to do things a different way. Just like discussions out here in the public Forum. The difference is that in the Beta discussions people are fully informed of what options are available in relation to the way the game already is (which is often not what the public has seen yet). Therefore, while the discussions themselves follow the same patterns of critical discussion, they are being done with different information and different access to Charles and my thinking.

Oh, and if I miss something good from the public Forums, you can bet your bottom dollar (Euro, Yen, what have you) that one of the testers will make a case for it in private quarters. Which means the testers are your advocates even if you don't know it.

There a good crew, even if they don't act (or look ;)) like cheerleaders.

Steve

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On a serious note, the truth is that when we choose a tester to come on board the primary qualifications are:

1. Ability to communicate a position clearly, rationally, and productively.

2. Dedication to wanting to make the game better than it was when they started (this can take a variety of forms in addition to testing, such as artwork, scenario design, map making, etc.)

3. Fun to work with. If we can't have fun, then something is very wrong since this is a game after all :)

We don't care if someone comes up with no new ideas of their own as long as they are there to critique the ideas that are presented (by us or other testers). There is almost always some degree of disagreement, criticism, or suggestions to do things a different way. Just like discussions out here in the public Forum. The difference is that in the Beta discussions people are fully informed of what options are available in relation to the way the game already is (which is often not what the public has seen yet). Therefore, while the discussions themselves follow the same patterns of critical discussion, they are being done with different information and different access to Charles and my thinking.

Oh, and if I miss something good from the public Forums, you can bet your bottom dollar (Euro, Yen, what have you) that one of the testers will make a case for it in private quarters. Which means the testers are your advocates even if you don't know it.

There a good crew, even if they don't act (or look ;)) like cheerleaders.

Steve

Ok so what about bribes, can I bribe my way in? Any particular beer or wine? I could be the class clown too. I promise that was not me in the pic with the muffler. :D

Hehe, ok, seriously though, if not Normandy then I'd love to get in on the East Front games at least. This jobless IT guy has loads of free time on his hands. :o

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Beer is too easy to get, so it's not a very good bribe. Baltic state desert camouflage, however, will do wonders for my perception of a person's potential as a tester :D

Currently we have about 30 testers. Some have been with us for 4 years, some only for a few months, and the majority somewhere inbetween. As we get closer to completion we'll take on some more testers, few of them CM:SF players. We are quite interested in what non-CM:SF players have to say about CM: Normandy in its close to release state.

Steve

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On a serious note, the truth is that when we choose a tester to come on board the primary qualifications are:

1. Ability to communicate a position clearly, rationally, and productively.

Steve, my rollerskates are full of CHEESE. Will you send your mother a didgeridoo? If you know what I mean...

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Currently we have about 30 testers. Some have been with us for 4 years, some only for a few months, and the majority somewhere inbetween. As we get closer to completion we'll take on some more testers, few of them CM:SF players. We are quite interested in what non-CM:SF players have to say about CM: Normandy in its close to release state.

Steve

I think you should include some basic learning scenarios again with the release of CM:Normandy like you did with CMBO. In my opinion the general difficulty level of base game scenarios has increased with each of the new CM:SF modules, which is ok for veteran players but you'll probably get a lot of new players with CM:N that may be put off if they find it too frustrating to start with.

Just a thought.

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Of course you would say that, but can you prove it? I for one have never seen you in public with him. Paint me skeptical.

oh_really.gif

Michael

You saved that pic didn't you Michael? I must admit, it was a true classic, your welcome. :D

But wait, this is not the place for that kind of discussion and I haven't wandered into the Peng thread in a long awhile. I've been good.

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Steve,

Does this also mean we'll see more regular updates? I mean, with just one major feature left to code, you guys should have a lot of beans to spill ;) And when are you guys planning on revealing the game name? CMSF was announced ages before it got released. However, information on Normandy has been pretty scarce, even now, we don't really know a whole lot about the game.

I would love to see a website, maybe some weapon renders like you guys did for CMSF and some more general info. Naturally, i'm sure that a whole lot of people are really interested in how the QB system works too! :D

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Are we going to get rain and fog and all manner of inclement meteorological goodness? It''l be nice to get some variety after Syria. I take it such conditions will have a big effect on air cover as well?

To be honest I've been enjoying SF so much I haven't really given CM:N much thought. I'm beginning to pay more attention, though....those shots are great.

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Folke! Good to see you again mate. I'll line you up for the first PBEM.

Ha det! :D

Heh, perhaps it was like 5 years ago?

Time moves fast when you are clean of a habit :P

The bad thing about this is that I must install some kind of Windows again :)

--

Ha Det!

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