IDF vs NATO

[Lethaface]

Well although I hope we have learned our lesson here in Europe I fear that you are right souldierz. Even I feel good if others agree with me on a wargame forum (at least i'm not totally nuts ) Now what rush will it give to be 'foreverized' (as we would say it in Dutch)?

At least here on this forum we can exchange opinions, disagree and still wish each other the best! For my part, hereby my toasts on a prosperous New Year for Vark and others I disagree with

Damn this Heineken tastes chemical !!!

[Vark]

Beer! What a wonderful Iraqi invention! That is when that part of the world actually led the civilised world in innovation and 'scientific' discovery. The problem is that now the tiny state of Israel is far more successful than the Muslim world, a point made in this Pakistani article, for "The News".

http://plusmo.com/wap/site/article.shtml?pid=560829&iid=&aid=1&q=

This, I think is the 'dark secret' behind the problems in the Middle East, the refusal/inability of the majority of the Muslim world to adapt to the modern world, not any military industrial complex 'conspiracies'. Israels presence daily reminds the Arabs of this inferiority, hardest I think, for the Arab world is their military impotence, given tribal societies take great pride in their ability to protect their people. Yes the US supports Israel but it also pumps in billions to the states around it, especially promoting education and scientific research and the OPEC countries can more than match US funding. Just imagine if there were oil fields in Israel?

Yes Yair, the Arabs I knew and worked with, in Israel, lived in very tight knit supportive communities, but so did the Anglo-Saxon communities in this country a thousand years ago. The cost, it seems for more technological progress is a more fluid, insular work force and a breakdown in social cohesiveness and traditional ways, look at the different Iraqi reactions to the creation of a 'modern' political civic state.

Yossarian, the destruction of the Holy Sepulchre in 1009 began a worsening relationship between Christianity and Islam and the halt to Christian pilgrimages and the battle of Manzikert, in 1071, threatened the Byzantine Orthodox Christian empire. By 1084 the Seljuks had captured Antioch and in 1092 Nicea, two very important metropolitan sees, especially Nicea; the site of two important ecumenical councils deciding the future of the Christian Church. Pope Urban II's call for a Crusade was in direct response to a plea by Emperor Alexius I, for help against this continuing aggressive Muslim expansion. It was in 1095 that the Council of Claremont was convened for the first Crusade and as you rightly said in 1099 it was successful. So, not a knee jerk reaction but a direct response to a threat to their Christian heritage and lands. I did not get confused, the Crusades have always been a favourite period, but I might not have made my argument clear, a failing of mine, sorry.

Anti-semitism in Arabic society is well-established and does not reflect a minority opinion, though the levels to which it is practiced/believed do differ.

http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/default.htm

http://www.newsweek.com/id/186974

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/patext1.html

The last link is particularly distasteful, as it undermines my professions integrity.

Yair, I think the difference between a suicide bomber killing civilians and a military strike killing civilians, who are not the target of the strike, is the intent. I think there is a moral difference between the two as it comes under the ethical theory of double effect. I certainly know, from my studies that modern Western nations go out of their way to reduce civilian casualties, but their opponents often deliberately exploit this SOP and hide amongst those civilians. Anytime a soldier deliberately targets a civilian then yes, they are no better than a terrorist, I don't know too about the IDF's SOP's but it seems to follow the Western model albeit more robustly.

As for the debate about about Ahmadineajad's comments, I seem to remember it all revolved around the translation about time, but as this article suggests it was very useful to have a statement that was 'ambiguous'.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1213794295236&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Lethaface, I know I have used media sources but if you triangulate them they can give you a rough idea about what is going on. More importantly I tend to look at sources who have been proved correct, over ones who seem to not have a clue and indulge in wish fulfillment.

I don't excuse Jewish atrocities but you are right I am definitely more sympathetic to the Jew situation over the Arab one, which I think is more self-inflicted. The people I most sympathise with though are the brave Muslim moderates who seek change, especially the woman academics and politicians.

Finally, I know that Iran is not an Arab country but proudly Persian but under the present leadership its views are atypical of other Arab states. Now in that vein I will indulge in a Persian discovery, wine. Yes I know the Georgians claim it as well but we can have a bit of poetic licence here, can't we?

[Lethaface]

This, I think is the 'dark secret' behind the problems in the Middle East, the refusal/inability of the majority of the Muslim world to adapt to the modern world

The Muslim world is far beyond "Arabia". Although most 'Islamic States' are well behind this cannot be said about Malaysia for example. Indonesia as the worlds largest Muslim state is so big that you can't really judge it as a whole. It has definitive problems, but is also hopeful in some parts. There are many Muslims around the world that have not had the same developments as we had. There are also a lot of non-Muslims in the same situation. I don't know if it makes us any better then them (those that are behind) though?????

But, do you believe in a Zionist Nationalistic Destiny? I will then still wish you the same I wished you before, but it does explain some things...

[Yair Iny]

Vark,

Intent is all well and good, but over time and repeated civilian deaths, you can forgive those who might lose the distinction. The thousands of Afghani "collateral damage" victims care naught about the lack of intent on the part of the US to kill them. As to the IDF operation in Gaza, at some point indifference is a shade of intent, do you not agree? When one drinks and drives we do not charge them with murder when they kill someone on the road, but they are definitely more guilty than a sober driver. As Emerson said "What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say." (a very timely google homepage quote of the day, lest anyone think I am really that erudite )

[Lethaface]

And although I am very happy with the invention of wine It is not by which I judge a society...

I still hope it may taste you good though

[Vark]

Lethaface, thanks for the toast and same to you, we actually migh have some champers tomorrow, given the year has actually been tolerable and not the usual vintage of bloody awful.

Do I believe in a Jewish destiny? I cannot answer that question but I do know that if you work hard, value education and love life, you should succeed, destiny or not.

Thanks to all for a well tempered, well informed debate on a very contentious issue. I have not posted as much and as regularly for a long time, but the Middle East has always fascinated me. Final question, does being wargamer, paradoxically, make you more, not less compassionate?

[panzermartin]

This, I think is the 'dark secret' behind the problems in the Middle East, the refusal/inability of the majority of the Muslim world to adapt to the modern world, not any military industrial complex 'conspiracies'

Well, I think you are overestimating the value of our "modern world". I personally think Western world is in moral decadence. Take for instance the US. Individualsim, aggressiveness, corruption, commercialsim, materialsitic values, art decay and uneven split of wealth. It won't take long till such ill societies come down. A friend of mine has spent some years in Manchester and he wonders why Britain still exists. People's highest hour is to kill their brains drinking in pubs like there's no tomorrow. Thats not a very positive approach to life. Why should Arabs with a far richer culture adapt to it? Jews have always been very capable in maintaining cohesion, wealth and power but their state is only some years old, so dont rush to judge their success. Once US isnt able to spend zillions of dollars in world policy action, Israel will be left alone against its sworn enemies. I'm not sure nuclears will save the day.

[Yair Iny]

Well, I think you are overestimating the value of our "modern world". I personally think Western world is in moral decadence. Take for instance the US. Individualsim, aggressiveness, corruption, commercialsim, materialsitic values, art decay and uneven split of wealth. It won't take long till such ill societies come down. A friend of mine has spent some years in Manchester and he wonders why Britain still exists. People's highest hour is to kill their brains drinking in pubs like there's no tomorrow. Thats not a very positive approach to life. Why should Arabs with a far richer culture adapt to it? Jews have always been very capable in maintaining cohesion, wealth and power but their state is only some years old, so dont rush to judge their success. Once US isnt able to spend zillions of dollars in world policy action, Israel will be left alone against its sworn enemies. I'm not sure nuclears will save the day.

Ali-Baba, the nukes aren't there to save the day, they are there to end the day

But on a more serious note, Israel did alright even before the US started supporting it in the late 60s, it's per-capita income is far higher than any of its neighbours, it's economic base is light industry and knowledge skills as opposed to natural resources and labour intensive industries. I believe Israel would still be the strongest regional power even without the $3,000,000,000 annual US contribution (not to belittle that contribution). Political support is another thing, but then it is in the West's interest that Israel continues to exist, so that's not likely to change unless the West really declines. But then if it does, who cares about political support, it's only the West that even considers intervening in anyone else's business a-la Kosovo. Can't really see China or Russia invading Israel because the UN security council passed a resolution condemning it for killing Palestinians, they couldn't care less.

[Lethaface]

they couldn't care less.

All too true... I still favor US as a world power above Russia or China, partly because of that.

[panzermartin]

Yair Iny, Israel did excellent if you ask me. But still, imo, a modern era without US political support wont be the same as back in the 60s. Israel might be a pocket superpower but is still a pocket sized state and almost seems like a lone isle in the middlle of an unpredictable sea.

However, I got to agree with the superpower thing here too. I have no illusions that China or Russia will be better as world police. I would ideally still prefer a balance but not in the form of Cold war's balance of terror.

[Kolyanich]

The short answer is...I despise them, tactics and attitude.

What do you know about their attitude and tactics?

And why it makes you despising them?

Does the tactics and the attitude of WWII SS despise you by any chance?

[para]

What do you know about their attitude and tactics?

And why it makes you despising them?

Does the tactics and the attitude of WWII SS despise you by any chance?

I have said that i would not wish to see and IDF module and i will leave it at that.Suffice to say that Israel and it's military have not covered themselves in glory over the last 30+ years.