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JerseyJohn

WWII Bookshelf

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Rambo you also mention about Russia/USA almost going to war but it didnt happen,with Hitler in power there is no doubt it would have.

I agree with you that Russia wasnt much of an Allie and in some cases they were just the same as the Nazis but atleast Stalin and the rest had the common sense not to start a major world war which would surely have wiped us prettywell all out.

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Thank you, Arado and BrotherRambo, glad you gentlemen found it interesting.

-- Cultural Revolution? I guess that was when Mao came out of retirement in the mid-60s and had the Red Guard, waving their Little Red Books all over China and killing anyone they deemed to be anti-revolutionary.

Not so sure that some of those things on the list qualify as wars or just simply extremely huge genocides.

Planning to start those two threads but at this point it's going to take some time to copy the relevant comments out of this one. That will be my first project here after Christmas. :cool::)

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Rambo I agree with you totally about how stupid it was to land on some of the beachs(especially those waste of time islands)but if the Germans had defeated Russia(dont know if that would have ever been possible)do you really think that madman would stop.You can be absolutley sure that after he finished with England(which would then be in huge trouble)this would cause the rest of Europe,Turkey,the Mid-East oil etc,all to fall into his hands.He would no longer be resource poor.Dont you think that he would then turn his sights on America.Remember the Germans were years ahead of us in rocket tech.and for sure he would start firing them at America,which would have NO defence.Also with no bomber offensive the Germans would be free to start to work on an Atomic bomb plus who knows what type of Chemical or biological weapons they would have developed.Im VERY glad and VERY gratefull of all the young men and women that saw that none of what I just wrote had even the slightest to chance to happen because if it did im sure alot of us wouldnt be here today.

Well, I just would have fought the war totally different. First, the Germans had no chance in the MedFront, let alone "capturing any oil". That's a joke if anybody really thinks Rommell was going drive his tanks to Egypt, then Israel, then Iraq & Saudi Arabia......then send oil tankers down there. The Germans didn't have any boats. They couldn't even support their own troops in Africa, let alone start oil supply tanker convoys from the Middle East to Germany.

You mention rocket technology. Yeah, that's my point. Go for techonology. Be the first to invent bombers that can more accurately deliver bombs from the sky which are out of the reach of flak.

Kill civilians. If the United States Air Force would have gotten really nasty, just bomb civilians. Use chemical weapons against civilians. Find methods to poison & restrict their food supply. Attack resources. People will say, I'm crazy for thinking that way. My point would be to save my country's people. Why have 300,000 American die when other weapons could do the job. Is it any holier to kill with infantry or chemical weapons?

The same could be true for today's military strategy. Occupying foriegn land is a waste.

Anywhere foot soldiers are, causes a huge need for supplies. The United States has 2-Oceans protecting itself, nobody is going to land on us. Build Navies, Air Force, & super-weapons. Use them wisely, and with extreme measures when necessary.

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One of the books i got for christmas is

http://www.amazon.com/German-Panzers-World-Order-Battle/dp/0760331162

I already have another book in the oredr of battle series by Chris Bishop, Luftwaffe and i think that is veru nice, it gives a good overview of Luftwaffes organization during the war and different campaigns but maybe not that deep.

And the Panzer book looks to be the same, very nice color schemes and each campaign is described and also hiow the panzers were organized during the war, recommended.

I will shortly also buy another book in this series, German Infantry.

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It´s a very good book to use when designing SC MODs, when you wonder about the strength for different campaigns, personally i like the Luftwaffe book a bit more so far, i believe that is because i know more about the Panzerwaffe than the Luftwaffe.

I really like the layout of them, but maybe not very deep analyzes (192 pages says it all).

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I have two books related to that same theme to add:

1. "In Deadly Combat, A German Soldier's Memoir of the Eastern Front", by Gottlieb Herbert Bidermann, published by University Press of Kansas, 2000.

2. "The German Soldier in World War II", by Dr. S. Hart, Dr. R. Hart, and Dr. M. Hughes, published by MBI Publishing Company, 2000.

I found both books to be very interesting and informative, as far as the German infantry issue is concerned. :cool:

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Rambo Germany wouldnt have to take the Med.If Russia went downthen they would just come around the other way and if you recall the people of the Mid-East were none to fond of the Brits and would have done everything in their power to help the Germans.

As far as getting the oil to Germany just truck it through to Turkey(yes I realise how hard that would be) and you could then build more refineries in Romania etc.You wouldnt have to send all the oil to Germany.Actually how much oil would Germany need?If the Axis had defeated Russia and England they wouldnt need such a huge army anymore.

Do you think the Americans could build a bomber that could fly from America to Germany and back before Germany had enough Rockets to start firing first?

I just think if the Amis.hadnt got directly involved when they did it would have meant the oveall loss of ALOT more lives(including Americans)Like you said,who cares if its a soldier that dies or a civilian.

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Arado --- Anything could have happened once we start talking about "tech rolls". Lets just say, I would have considered an overall different strategy as the Yanks both in Europe & Asia.

I'm surprised chemical weapons weren't used by either side.

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I agree with Arado. The best selling book in Iraq at the time was Mein Kampf. Hitler made a huge blunder in not helping that country to oust the Brits. He could also have sent aid earlier than the actual uprising but he kept telling his inner circle that the Middle East fell within Il Duce's sphere. A ridiculous position to take at that point in the war. With Iraq in the Axis and Rommel taking Tobruk almost simultaneously the British, aside from the Iraqi oil, would have been a very desperate strategic situation. All the Iraquis needed was a little air support; even ME 110s, next to useless against the Hurricanes and Spitfires, might have won air supremacy against the training models Britain had on its airfield in Iraq.

I have to agree with BrotherRambo that Rommel couldn't have forced his way through to Alexandria and the Suez Canal. That was also the opinion of Paulus, who was sent to do an evaluation of the theater after the fall of Tobruk. Paulus advised the Axis should hold Libya but not try to take Egypt. But this was too tame for Rommel who wouldn't even allow Kesselring to take Malta, convincing Hitler to cancel the operation (he was against such battles in any case after Crete) and send those troops (including a German paratroop brigade and an Italian paratroop regiment) to his command instead, with a green light for the push into Egypt.

Probably, instead of sending Paulus to the Sixth Army, Hitler should have sent Rommel to Russia and placed Paulus in command of the Africa Corps. Russia, aside from the genocide which I'm sure he'd have kept under control in his command, was well suited to Rommel's skills while Paulus, in a defensive posture in Libya, could have eased into his first field command instead of being dropped totally without experience into the most important offensive taking place at the time. -- My only guess is Hitler would probably have deemed command of Sixth Army to be a sort of demotion for Rommel, who was promoting to fieldmarshal.

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It's not that the Germans couldn't have pulled of an end run to the Middle East + Coup D' Tau with some local governments. I just don't see Gerry setting up a 3000+ mile long supply line of oil without the Allies dusting it off the map with bombers/fighters. So what's the point trying to take the oil fields of the Middle East if you can't ship it home.

I'm really surprised that neither side didn't invent "Mustard Gas" bombs to drop from planes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_gas_in_World_War_I

30 years previously, since WW-1, scientists could have improved on this nasty stuff

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It isn't so much Germany getting the oil as it is depriving it to the British. The Royal Navy in the Eastern Mediteranean/Red Sea Persian Gulf relied on that oil; it was the original reason Churchill in ~1920 pushed for the creation of a nation of Iraq, and also forced the conversion of the Royal Navy from coal to oil.

Additionally, it might have pulled Iran and Turkey into, or at least closer to, the Axis. This would have blocked one of the support routes to the USSR through Southern Russia.

And gaining access to all that oil wouldn't have hurt either. Probably the Royal Navy would have been forced to either leave the Eastern Mediteranean, or curtail its operations there, and the Middle Eastern oil could have been brought to Germany through Turkey-Bulgaria-Rumania-Hungary.

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I'd like to see a game that would have all the things we've been talking about here.

-- I better set that new thread up pretty soon before our three way discussion finishes hijacking this one. :)

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Rambo I cant see either how Germany(atleast for ALONG time) would have been able to get all that oil to the refineries even if they did control the Med.It certainly take along time to setup the infrastucture to do all that.

As far as Chemical and Biological weapons go neither side(im not counting the concetration camps)used them militarily because(im guessing)that after WW1 it was considered immoral(yes I know the irony)and there are some things you just shouldnt do.Plus neither side wanted them used on eachothers civilain pop.The side that used them first would have been looked upon as a total evil villian that could never be trusted.

If Hitler wasnt willig to use them(which is VERY suprising)militarily then if the Allies fired first with them I could see it blowing up,in their face.Since both sides had them and delering the weapon accurate didnt really matter Imho it would have unleashed such destruction(much more than there already was)that it would have made no sense.

Rambo as far as tech.goes you are absoulty correct in who knows what eachside would have invented and thats precisley why imho the Americans had to get into the war as fast as they could to end it(yes I also would have done things differently but hindsight is 20/20)so Germany didnt have any chance of developing some Ultra high-tech weapons.

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Arado,

In Scotland, frighteningly close to the shore, is a small island where nobody is allowed to land. It looks really innocent and peaceful (I've driven by it).It was the site of British development and testing of Anthrax as a bioweapon during WWII (the irony of the UK later invading Iraq, apparently to look for such weapons, is not lost on me).

The reasons for not using such weapons may be complex. I'd note that gas was very effective when first used in WWI (if sometimes backfiring) but became less formidable when gas masks became standard. I'd imagine in a more mobile WWII it was even less useful.

[incidentally, UK used more gas than the Germans did in WWI IIRC]

Even though there is a lot of fear and development and testing and speculation there continues to be no validation for bioweapons, even in this age of genetic modification. As terror weapons yes (e.g. the Anthrax-by-post saga) but as military weapons no.

Basically, high explosives are easier to target and deadlier. In WWI gas lead to breakthroughs but so did massed artillery, mining, well trained shock troops and tanks. I think generals like the latter four methods as they were more subject to command and control.....

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Colin I I also think what would scare people with these Chem.or Bilogical weapons(check out what the Japs did with their Bio.weapons experiments at Mukkden)is the not knowing part of why people are dying.If you dont know whats causing death you tend to get even more scared.

I hope you are right in that there NEVER comes a reason to validate the use of Bio.chemical or Nukes.

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I've got to hand it to you Rambo, you're probably right about that Mideast oil being available to the Axis, Italy and Germany surely needed it but its likely not possible within the time constraints of the historical WW2 era. Let's think hypothetically though, excluding Turkey's involvement first, and then possibly that the Turks may have joined later with a successful Barbarossa.

Imagine, not so outlandishly, that Rommel had gotten a couple more Panzer divisions and Malta had been invaded and occupied(unimpeded logistics). Franco's aspirations for North African territories and oil commitments were guaranteed by Hitler and Spain joined, most likely undermining Gibraltar's position. Essentially the Med is closed as the Suez would have been reached by the AK. Now we've got to get that oil to Italy and Germany. There's no pipeline and shipping is mostly nonexistent given the RN dominance before the Med was closed.

The question is, assuming a serious Axis investment, how long does it take to establish an oil lifeline to Italy? To Germany through Turkey(railcars) and into the Rumanian infrastructure that was already present? Finally, if the RN had been kept at bay sooner and Italy had not suffered so much loss of its maritime lift capacity, how long, from the extreme eastern Med harbors, would it have been before the ME oil could have been sealifted in sufficient quantities to make a difference?

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Did you know a huge reason Malta was not invaded in spring 1942 was that after Crete Hitler had to use his 7. Fliegerdivision to keep the russian 54th army back at the Leningrad front. So no operation hercules.

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Maybe it was a consideration, but Herkules was supposed to be largely an Italian operation, but for my "what if" you've got to go further back. Consider this, how about Malta instead of Crete? Without the Fuehrer's intervention and backed by Student and Goering, Jodl's staff may well have had their way and opted for Malta what with Rommel's success in the Cyrenaica.

If you think about it, the logical conclusion is to go with Rommel, neutralize Malta and forget about Crete which turned out to be a deadend strategic decision. Now you've got Malta, Rommel's on Tobruk's doorstep and all those assets lost in the Cretian campaign are still at the Axis' disposal.

Crete was nothing more than a false vision of Hitler's to erect a bulwark against his southern flank and the Balkans for Barbarossa. You don't need that damn if you've projected that intention further to the south into the Western Desert. The Brits are the run in NA and what possible significance is Crete at this point?

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@SeaMonkey --- Yeah, I know.....then the Axis can make the MedSea their private swimming pool. It was a pipedream.

A better "what if" scenario. What if the Germans didn't get in such a hurry in Russia. Concentrated their Army Groups better & actually exterminated half the country. Then Germany gets a few tech hits. (See Terif's War)

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I'd like to see a game that would have all the things we've been talking about here.

Agreed!

Unfortunatly Global Gonflict will have smaler maps of each theater of conflict (even though the overal map will be probably larger than anything else before).

Best would be an update which offers the western map of WAW (or even bigger), the eastern Map of PTE (or even bigger) and a southern Map of the same size to include the rest of the world.

-- I better set that new thread up pretty soon before our three way discussion finishes hijacking this one. :)

Too late, dear friend, too late. :D

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BrotherX, And it is ageed, my friend, I tarried too long and now this thing can't possibly be reorganized back to its original purpose. Doesn't make much sense starting that new thread either as so much has already been said in this one.

Oh well, tomorrow is another day. :D

-- Never really did expect a game that would have all these aspects in it. Perhaps someday, ten or twenty years down the road, when something appears called, oh, I don't know, :confused:, maybe, uh, SC-3. :rolleyes::cool:

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