Global Alliances in WWII

[JerseyJohn]

First, the Axis.

Germany-Japan-Italy. How well did they word as an alliance?

- Sept 1939, after telling Mussolini earlier in the year that Germany would not risk a major war till at least 1941, Hitler invades Poland despite a (very foolish) Anglo-French announcement to declare war on Germany if it did so. Meanwhile, Italy, which now had a program under way to be ready for war by 1941, found itself being pressured to join Germany immediately, despite being hopelessly unprepared.

During the phony war period Hitler called a strategy meeting and, beginning to doubt his Italian allies, who were still neutral, asked his top generals and admirals for their opinions. When it got around to von Rundstedt he said something to the effect of: "If Italy remains neutral we'll need to place 1 infantry division to cover the Alpine passes. If Italy goes to war against us we'll need to place 2 infantry divisions in those passes. If Italy joins us we'll be required to send 20 divisions to defend the the Italian mainland." Prophetic indeed.

-- After the war progressed Mussolini returned the Poland courtessy by not bothering to tell Hitler he had designs on Greece till after he'd launched an invasion of the country. He did this by walking up to Hitler, saying, "Fuhrer, we are on the march!" Hitler, meanwhile, had up to that point been attempting to draw Greece into the Axis. In any case, Mussolini had chosen the wrong season for an offensive in the Balkans and his troops spent less time on the march than he'd anticipated.

-- Spring 1941. The Japanese ambassador to Germany returns home full of enthusiasm for a joint war against the USSR. The Japanese government, having already lost two large battles in an undeclared border war against the Russians in Outer Mongolia, decided instead to plan on a Pacific strategy directed against the United States, Britain and the various European colonies. They didn't bother telling their German ally about any of that.

-- June 1941 Germany invades the USSR. Didn't bother telling their Japanese ally till after the fighting had already gotten under way.

-- December 1941 Japan attacks the United States and Britain in the Pacific. They don't bother telling Germany till after news reports began reaching Berlin in news reports.

-- Hitler, in part believing a DOW on the United States would compel a reciprical Japanese DOW on the USSR, adds America to his now hopeless list of enemy major powers. Japan continues on its way without the expected DOW on the USSR that Hitler hoped would draw Russian troops from the European front.

** Technology **

-- Italian BBs sunk in 1940 raid on Taranto by antique British biplane (Swordfish) torpedo aircraft. The attack would have easily been detected if Italy had possessed radar, but it didn't. Germany did, but chose not to share it with its ally. Italian warships also lost heavily in night actions with the Royal Navy due to British use of gunnery radar, which the Italians didn't possess. Again, Germany did and, again, Germany chose not to share it with its ally.

-- Japanese Navy heavily handicapped against the US due to its own lack of radar, both to detect aircraft and for use as range finders/locators on warships. Germany does not share the technology till much later in the war, after the key naval battles had already been fought, and the tide turned against Japan.

-- Long range heavy aircraft, a techonology the Italians had and the Germans sorely needed, but again, no need to share.

Final Touch. 1945, Germany in ruins, a Uboat heads for Japan with refined nuclear material for use in an A-bomb. Some sources say Japan actually tested one, with success, other sources say they didn't have the technology and only wanted the material for use in simple dirty bomb devices. Either way, the U-boat learns at sea of Germany's surrender and changes course for the United States, arriving with two dead Japanese naval officers and its precious cargo, which it presents to the Americans as a gift. The material is used in the Nagasaki bomb.

With allies like that who needs enemies? :eek:

[jon_j_rambo]

If only Hitler/Moose/Japs had Twitter, than they could play nice. Hitler's masterace probably didn't have many kind words to say about the Asian race, so why help them?

Maybe the "Axis" were made by the "Allies". Meaning, who says they (Axis) were such friends? George W. Bush called Iran, N.Korea the axis of evil, doesn't mean they were friends.

Either way, thanks for sharing the screw-ups of the Axis powers so called. Waiting for your USA/Russia relationship for "Allies".

[Desert Dave]

First, the Axis.

Germany-Japan-Italy. How well did they word as an alliance?

- Sept 1939, after telling Mussolini earlier in the year that Germany would not risk a major war till at least 1941, Hitler invades Poland despite a (very foolish) Anglo-French announcement to declare war on Germany if it did so. Meanwhile, Italy, which now had a program under way to be ready for war by 1941, found itself being pressured to join Germany immediately, despite being hopelessly unprepared.

During the phony war period Hitler called a strategy meeting and, beginning to doubt his Italian allies, who were still neutral, asked his top generals and admirals for their opinions. When it got around to von Rundstedt he said something to the effect of: "If Italy remains neutral we'll need to place 1 infantry division to cover the Alpine passes. If Italy goes to war against us we'll need to place 2 infantry divisions in those passes. If Italy joins us we'll be required to send 20 divisions to defend the the Italian mainland." Prophetic indeed.

-- After the war progressed Mussolini returned the Poland courtessy by not bothering to tell Hitler he had designs on Greece till after he'd launched an invasion of the country. He did this by walking up to Hitler, saying, "Fuhrer, we are on the march!" Hitler, meanwhile, had up to that point been attempting to draw Greece into the Axis. In any case, Mussolini had chosen the wrong season for an offensive in the Balkans and his troops spent less time on the march than he'd anticipated.

-- Spring 1941. The Japanese ambassador to Germany returns home full of enthusiasm for a joint war against the USSR. The Japanese government, having already lost two large battles in an undeclared border war against the Russians in Outer Mongolia, decided instead to plan on a Pacific strategy directed against the United States, Britain and the various European colonies. They didn't bother telling their German ally about any of that.

-- June 1941 Germany invades the USSR. Didn't bother telling their Japanese ally till after the fighting had already gotten under way.

-- December 1941 Japan attacks the United States and Britain in the Pacific. They don't bother telling Germany till after news reports began reaching Berlin in news reports.

-- Hitler, in part believing a DOW on the United States would compel a reciprical Japanese DOW on the USSR, adds America to his now hopeless list of enemy major powers. Japan continues on its way without the expected DOW on the USSR that Hitler hoped would draw Russian troops from the European front.

** Technology **

-- Italian BBs sunk in 1940 raid on Taranto by antique British biplane (Swordfish) torpedo aircraft. The attack would have easily been detected if Italy had possessed radar, but it didn't. Germany did, but chose not to share it with its ally. Italian warships also lost heavily in night actions with the Royal Navy due to British use of gunnery radar, which the Italians didn't possess. Again, Germany did and, again, Germany chose not to share it with its ally.

-- Japanese Navy heavily handicapped against the US due to its own lack of radar, both to detect aircraft and for use as range finders/locators on warships. Germany does not share the technology till much later in the war, after the key naval battles had already been fought, and the tide turned against Japan.

-- Long range heavy aircraft, a techonology the Italians had and the Germans sorely needed, but again, no need to share.

Final Touch. 1945, Germany in ruins, a Uboat heads for Japan with refined nuclear material for use in an A-bomb. Some sources say Japan actually tested one, with success, other sources say they didn't have the technology and only wanted the material for use in simple dirty bomb devices. Either way, the U-boat learns at sea of Germany's surrender and changes course for the United States, arriving with two dead Japanese naval officers and its precious cargo, which it presents to the Americans as a gift. The material is used in the Nagasaki bomb.

With allies like that who needs enemies? :eek:

Thank you, incomparably rare species... Historianacus Floridus, you have yet again!

Demonstrated precisely HOW "history" can be made interesting and entertaining.

Presented with no small insight, and even better than that! Insofar as I am concerned! With some carefully placed... grace and, lyric.

I am hardly surprised, no, not after all these many years of reading yer takes, faint & bold praises, and panegyrics too! On sur-real aspects of WW2.

Which is why I have "quoted" yer entire... Axis-as-3-stooges-redux... ram-a-lang-a-ding-dong - shebang!

George W. Bush called Iran, N.Korea the axis of evil, doesn't mean they were friends.

Since Axis implies 3, one might presume you left out the vilest tentacle of the Triad, IE them there Wall Street Molochs ... annihilators of whole entire blocks of Main Street USA's

Angels, satans, people and trees!"

[Gorgin]

AXIS has a variety of meanings, and doesn't necessarily imply THREE of anything.

However, in his State of the Union address in January of 2002, George W. Bush used the term "Axis of Evil" (coined by his speechwriter, David Frum) to descrbe Iran, North Korea, and IRAQ. This, in attempting to establish justification for his invasion of Iraq a few months later.

[Desert Dave]

AXIS has a variety of meanings, and doesn't necessarily imply THREE of anything.

However, in his State of the Union address in January of 2002, George W. Bush used the term "Axis of Evil" (coined by his speechwriter, David Frum) to descrbe Iran, North Korea, and IRAQ. This, in attempting to establish justification for his invasion of Iraq a few months later.

In the CONTEXT of the quote quoted, and given the CONTEXT of Bush Junior's original bellicose bluster, I stand by my comment that Axis -> IN THIS INSTANCE, signifies... 3.

Ah me, 3 TINY little world powers trumpeted-up! As the evil Axis does indeed = 3,... in the minds of those who had to listen (... worse by far, suffer the carnage of) to this "pre-emptive" kind of neo-con clap-trap.

O/W, you are exacto-mundo! Correcto! WRT to the dictionary def of "axis."

[... not to mention the long-standing WW2 reference to the Axis = 3, IE -> GErmany, Italy & Japan, yes?]

[xwormwood]

First, the Axis.

Germany-Japan-Italy. How well did they word as an alliance?

- Sept 1939, after telling Mussolini earlier in the year that Germany would not risk a major war till at least 1941, Hitler invades Poland despite a (very foolish) Anglo-French announcement to declare war on Germany if it did so. Meanwhile, Italy, which now had a program under way to be ready for war by 1941, found itself being pressured to join Germany immediately, despite being hopelessly unprepared.

During the phony war period Hitler called a strategy meeting and, beginning to doubt his Italian allies, who were still neutral, asked his top generals and admirals for their opinions. When it got around to von Rundstedt he said something to the effect of: "If Italy remains neutral we'll need to place 1 infantry division to cover the Alpine passes. If Italy goes to war against us we'll need to place 2 infantry divisions in those passes. If Italy joins us we'll be required to send 20 divisions to defend the the Italian mainland." Prophetic indeed.

-- After the war progressed Mussolini returned the Poland courtessy by not bothering to tell Hitler he had designs on Greece till after he'd launched an invasion of the country. He did this by walking up to Hitler, saying, "Fuhrer, we are on the march!" Hitler, meanwhile, had up to that point been attempting to draw Greece into the Axis. In any case, Mussolini had chosen the wrong season for an offensive in the Balkans and his troops spent less time on the march than he'd anticipated.

-- Spring 1941. The Japanese ambassador to Germany returns home full of enthusiasm for a joint war against the USSR. The Japanese government, having already lost two large battles in an undeclared border war against the Russians in Outer Mongolia, decided instead to plan on a Pacific strategy directed against the United States, Britain and the various European colonies. They didn't bother telling their German ally about any of that.

-- June 1941 Germany invades the USSR. Didn't bother telling their Japanese ally till after the fighting had already gotten under way.

-- December 1941 Japan attacks the United States and Britain in the Pacific. They don't bother telling Germany till after news reports began reaching Berlin in news reports.

-- Hitler, in part believing a DOW on the United States would compel a reciprical Japanese DOW on the USSR, adds America to his now hopeless list of enemy major powers. Japan continues on its way without the expected DOW on the USSR that Hitler hoped would draw Russian troops from the European front.

** Technology **

-- Italian BBs sunk in 1940 raid on Taranto by antique British biplane (Swordfish) torpedo aircraft. The attack would have easily been detected if Italy had possessed radar, but it didn't. Germany did, but chose not to share it with its ally. Italian warships also lost heavily in night actions with the Royal Navy due to British use of gunnery radar, which the Italians didn't possess. Again, Germany did and, again, Germany chose not to share it with its ally.

-- Japanese Navy heavily handicapped against the US due to its own lack of radar, both to detect aircraft and for use as range finders/locators on warships. Germany does not share the technology till much later in the war, after the key naval battles had already been fought, and the tide turned against Japan.

-- Long range heavy aircraft, a techonology the Italians had and the Germans sorely needed, but again, no need to share.

Final Touch. 1945, Germany in ruins, a Uboat heads for Japan with refined nuclear material for use in an A-bomb. Some sources say Japan actually tested one, with success, other sources say they didn't have the technology and only wanted the material for use in simple dirty bomb devices. Either way, the U-boat learns at sea of Germany's surrender and changes course for the United States, arriving with two dead Japanese naval officers and its precious cargo, which it presents to the Americans as a gift. The material is used in the Nagasaki bomb.

With allies like that who needs enemies? :eek:

Nice summary, thank you for that!

What we need a game designers who are willing and able to introduce these kind of allied behaviour into a game.

I strongly suggest to introduce more random events into the game.

It would be so easy to do. Again i have to mention my all time favourite board game "the great war in europe" by Ted Raicer.

In this game there is a chit pool. The chits are some minor and some major incidents, and some blanks as well. Example: you could draw a +1 dice roll for you next land attack (flamethrowers etc.), a neutral entry, and even some pretty bad things (like "the Tzar takes command" as the russian player). Nice thing was, that you had to pay a specific amount of income to get the ability to draw out of the chit pool. You could save your income and therefor not draw out of your chit pool. But than you opponent had the choice to pay to draw out of your chit pool as well. If he draw a "bad" incident, it had to be played. It it was a good one, than this incident would be displaced and would be out of the game for you..

Another nice thing in this game was that the east front and the west front were played on two different maps. One player planned his turn in the east, while the other played planned his turn in the west. This way you are always doing something, and were never forced to wait for your opponent to make his turn. This could work so very well in the Global SC.

I play my turn in Europe while my opponnent plays his turn in the Pacific.

When we are both ready, the wach what the other player did, and than whe change side...

[JerseyJohn]

Thank you, BrotherRambo, DesertDave, BrotherX, glad you all enjoyed it and added ideas of your own. And thank you, Gorgin, for helping to define our use of the word Axis.

I've been thinking about starting this discussion since becoming active again but didn't do so till just going to bed yesterday. Upon reading it now I wish I'd been more awake so the writing itself would have been better, but fortunately the facts are all as I'd intended them to be.

BrotherRambo, The Twitter comment is more relevant than you might think. I remember reading a book in 1974 called The Sovereign State of ITT that had a lot of great stories about WWII. -- All the leaders on earth at that time spoke to one another on phone lines run and operated by ITT (not sure if they also ran the phones in the USSR, but they probably did). The corporation regarded itself as beyond the politics of any nation, or group of nations, and never got involved in evesdropping or spying of any kind for any of the beligerants. It owned part of the German Focke-Wulfe aircraft company and successfully sued the United States government for damages when those plants were wrecked by Allied bombers!

BrotherX, I think those are interesting ideas. I'd like them set up as the special rules in Clash of Steel, which included many individual special rules, such as Hitler's stand and fight policy, OKH gone mad, etc..

DD what I always get a kick out of is the way Germany and Japan were so often represented in old war movies as very efficient military states working cloesely together etc & etc. Even more so in wartime propaganda, especially magazines and special publications. I'm sure you remember seeing those old maps of the Japanese Rising Sun spreading its beams across the Pacific and Asia going out to the western side of the Mississippi River, where it met the arms of the German octopus sprawling east across the Atlantic. I have to admit those things still scared me as a kid in the 1950s when they were already turning yellow with age.

[jon_j_rambo]

In the CONTEXT of the quote quoted, and given the CONTEXT of Bush Junior's original bellicose bluster, I stand by my comment that Axis -> IN THIS INSTANCE, signifies... 3.

Ah me, 3 TINY little world powers trumpeted-up! As the evil Axis does indeed = 3,... in the minds of those who had to listen (... worse by far, suffer the carnage of) to this "pre-emptive" kind of neo-con clap-trap.

O/W, you are exacto-mundo! Correcto! WRT to the dictionary def of "axis."

[... not to mention the long-standing WW2 reference to the Axis = 3, IE -> GErmany, Italy & Japan, yes?]

With North Korea recently testing a nuclear weapon & shooting missles, it's safe to say, Junior B. might just have a point.

With Iran rejecting the world's request to quit their nuclear weapon tech program & shooting 2000+ mile ranged missiles, it's safe to say, Junior B. might just have a point.

[jon_j_rambo]

Maybe it's time we discuss the WW-2 Pacific War for once. We've covered Europe rather well over the last 7+ years.

For instance, start with this: Did Japan have a chance to win? How come the Japs were so brave on the ground, but made rather whimpy choices in Naval Combat?

[Baron]

I am in awe of those that write well, it is a skill I doubt I will ever master. Now to the point:

What if we add the ability to "buy" tech advances from an allied nation? Something akin to what minors can do that is to say 1 tech level below the selling country? It would give the ability to share tech - at a price.

How about the minor having to have at least the number of chits invested in the tech that they wish to purchase and then paying an additional chit that would go to the allied nation?

This would simulate the research needed to understand and use the tech but it also gives an expensive way to actually buy tech.

Just an idea.

[jon_j_rambo]

George W., the best President ever.

[Snowstorm]

JerseyJohn,

Great presentation about the lack of cooperation of the Axis.

I couldn't help but notice how late you put that in. What were you doing, watching "World at War"?

Perhaps the game should have a "random event" occur once a year, like having a 50% chance of Italy declare war on a random country in the world, or Japan declare war on an asian country not affiliated with anyone in the same way. :eek::cool:

As far Axis powers in recent years, don't forget the one from within (I'm sure you will appreciate this one): Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld. Now there's an evil triumvirate. :eek:

[jon_j_rambo]

JerseyJohn,

Great presentation about the lack of cooperation of the Axis.

I couldn't help but notice how late you put that in. What were you doing, watching "World at War"?

Perhaps the game should have a "random event" occur once a year, like having a 50% chance of Italy declare war on a random country in the world, or Japan declare war on an asian country not affiliated with anyone in the same way. :eek::cool:

As far Axis powers in recent years, don't forget the one from within (I'm sure you will appreciate this one): Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld. Now there's an evil triumpharate. :eek:

Easy on Bush. Stricken forbiden spreaken zee politicals.

[Snowstorm]

JJR,

Oops! Sorry, you're right about that. :eek:

Open mouth, extract foot. :D

[jon_j_rambo]

doesn't bother me one bit. but I'm guessing Glen Beck might start posting about Obama/Pelosi/Reid. Then we'll all be banned.

Goto Buntaland if you must

[Desert Dave]

Maybe it's time we discuss the WW-2 Pacific War for once. We've covered Europe rather well over the last 7+ years.

For instance, start with this: Did Japan have a chance to win? How come the Japs were so brave on the ground, but made rather whimpy choices in Naval Combat?

The Japanese Army had that "zen warrior" mentality. What is that called? Ummm... bushido? LOL!

Anyhow, they were in constant and continual clashes with the Navy, who were far less doctrinaire when it came to allowing ancient ideology to dictate their S & T.

This constant internecine warfare naturally led to conflicts WRT who would get vital resources and manpower.

Was this the ONLY reason they lost the War? No. But, I am already beat and tired typing out merely that much WW2 Pacific history.

As originally posted by E Floridus Unum, RE: ITT's perfidy:

It owned part of the German Focke-Wulfe aircraft company and successfully sued the United States government for damages when those plants were wrecked by Allied bombers!

Yep, JJ, and Henry Ford had some shady wheeling & dealing with the Nazis as well, IIRC. Well, he was an "Egyptologist" and was maybe?

Hoping they would venture out on an anthropological dig and find him a suitable resting place? For a man of his stature, I mean.

Either that, or a cavern deep and dark and aswarm w/snakes... for all those labor agitators who clamored for a living wage?

Too bad for him, but the Anthro black cats decided to TRY and find the Ark of the Covenant instead! Fortunately, Harrison Ford thwarted them in any case... wait! That was a MOVIE I saw awhile back?

No big deal, I've been going out on the high desert roundabouts Desert City in search of the Holy Grail. I wear my old canvas-sided combat boots with no laces and I carry my trusty canteen and entrenching tool and just... keep digging and digging and digging and so far... alas, no Grail. The work's not too bad, there under the burning lens of the Sun. I don't bother re-filling the holes, for one thing.

I did find some fantastic artifacts... a rusted out pail with little sea-horses on the side and some really ancient sea-shells -> that tell the tale of this very windy & dusty! High desert (... the USA State I reside in is about the size of the modern Nation of GErmany... got a ways to go on that digging I guess) once having been completely underwater!

Also found a few fragments of gold nuggets the Conquistadores must've dropped on their way to San Jose.

Well, anyway, since we DO INDEED have this phenomenon known as "global warming," perhaps here pret' soon I can simply get in the row-boat I keep handy in my backyard shed, and simply row on out and scoop up those shining new sea-shells!

Some times... Life IS X-actly like a movie, I reckon. What makes it all -- so much fun!

[JerseyJohn]

See Post Below

[JerseyJohn]

SnowStorm,

Appreciated. Enjoyed the momentary detour into politics. :cool:

BrotherRambo,

At first glance you got me with your George W. greatest president remark and then, as my mouth dropped open, I saw the portrait of that other American George from so long ago.

DesertDave,

As usual I envy you. No one in his or her right mind would want to go digging around this area. Not much of a dig anyway as after going a little way down there's only mucky mud-sand, and lots and lots of mainly unpleasant creatures that aren't even cute -- and the animal life isn't any bargain either. :eek:

I imagine in your historical search you'll eventually find a previously unknown dinosaur, or perhaps an even more important paleanthological find and, interviewed by The Science Channel, you'll explain that while seeking DeSoto you found DinoX.

-- Or, perhaps, you'll find that fountain so many have sought, and before long the world will once more have that promising young short stop, only this time around infinitely wiser and more philosophical. :cool:

If worse comes to worse and you get that desert fishing boat please leave a place for an old Coney Island type.

[xwormwood]

BrotherX, I think those are interesting ideas. I'd like them set up as the special rules in Clash of Steel, which included many individual special rules, such as Hitler's stand and fight policy, OKH gone mad, etc..

Oh, i remember that "hitler's order to stand" well enough.

It was a nice idea, but the game designer never thought it through, as i got those order even when i was advancing (from the Caucasus towards the west, after winning in Africa). I wanted to advance, but the game only saw the direction and ordered to stop the unit, while e retreat toward the east was always possible...

[SeaMonkey]

Agreed Rambo, the best, GW, it was all downhill after that, that moral public servant image, i mean.:mad:

Kind of makes you want to get back to the basics? The simplier way always had that ease of understanding, not the "gray" areas the lawyers are so adept at creating, interpretation of "truth". What happened to "it is" or "it isn't"?:confused:

The "Constitution" and the "Declaration" together are less than 10 pages. Where is "Luchenbach" Texas? Wayle...on!

[jon_j_rambo]

Yep, George Washington was quite the man. The man who could have been king. He walked away from the Presidency. Just wanted to chill out. Nice take on Waylon Jennings.

Stay Thirsty My Friends, MIMITW,

-Legend

[JerseyJohn]

BrotherX, You're a much braver game player than I; never could bring myself to choose that option. But I have to add I've worked for people who had that identical mentality. :eek: