BRO,JD Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 From the release: "More than once in the history of WWII, a handful of those little deadly boats helped decide the course of an entire battle and executed seemingly impossible missions." Just curious when PT boats did this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisy Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Well i know that Italian PT boats executed some brilliant attacks on the UK fleet in the med, missions which were quite difficult or seemingly impossible. I cant quote any sources but i do remember reading this somwhere many years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACTOR Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 They were used a lot in the Pacific Theater against the Japanese. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_boat Maybe that helps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRO,JD Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share Posted October 10, 2009 I know they were used extensively in the PTO for shuttle/courier service, patrol in the Solomons, etc. The only large action I know that PTs took part in was Surigao Strait during the Battle of Leyte Gulf, when they formed the first line of the American battle fleet but did not score any torpedo hits. I am honestly curious if PT boats ever played a major part in a major battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Malta convoys also come to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 I know they were used extensively in the PTO for shuttle/courier service, patrol in the Solomons, etc. The only large action I know that PTs took part in was Surigao Strait during the Battle of Leyte Gulf, when they formed the first line of the American battle fleet but did not score any torpedo hits. I am honestly curious if PT boats ever played a major part in a major battle.First, let's be clear that the term "PT-Boats" is an attempt to gain American support. In truth the craft were more properly referred to as either Motor Torpedo Boats or Motor Gun Boats ... generally abbreviated as MTB or MGB. The Patrol Torpedo Boat (PT) was an American version of the MTB and saw extensive service in all theaters. As mentioned, they had a role in the Surigao Straits and the British sent MTBs after the German fleet during the Channel Dash. In general, however, they were unsuited for major fleet battles ... of which there weren't many during WWII in any case. Their primary role was in the fight for the so-called narrow waters, the littoral areas around the coasts. Both sides did a lot of coastal traffic and their primary job was to either interdict or protect these "coasters" as they were called. They also did rescue work, minelaying and sweeping, espionage efforts and the general raising hell. The blurb you referred to was clearly exaggerated for effect. But that doesn't mean that the MTB role was unimportant to the fight. They played a critical role in keeping the littoral sea lanes open ... or closed ... and most assuredly contributed to the war effort significantly. If they hadn't been effective, so many nations wouldn't have spent so much time and money creating and fielding (that may be the wrong term for a naval vessel ) so many different varieties throughout the war. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRO,JD Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share Posted October 10, 2009 The blurb you referred to was clearly exaggerated for effect. But that doesn't mean that the MTB role was unimportant to the fight. They played a critical role in keeping the littoral sea lanes open ... or closed ... and most assuredly contributed to the war effort significantly. If they hadn't been effective, so many nations wouldn't have spent so much time and money creating and fielding (that may be the wrong term for a naval vessel ) so many different varieties throughout the war. Joe Thanks. I've always thought that the PTs were cool, back to my days watching PT-109 on WTBS with my Dad, but never have I read that they were effective or important in a major engagement. It's always been something I've been curious about when reading about the Pacific in WWII to find them doing something big. I understand their important roles in the Solomons, for instance, and rescuing MacArthur, but I was curious if there was a major engagement that the PTs had played an important (and effective) role in that I didn't know about. I've always thought that the idea of a dozen PT boats charging at the enemy battle line, letting loose a salvo of torpedoes, scoring some hits, and just as importantly breaking up the line was a cool idea. But like so many doctrinal roles that existed pre-war, the emphasis on the carrier and the lack of major fleet actions meant that what the navies intended and thought was important didn't necessarily jive with what actually happened. I completely understand a little exaggeration for effect when it comes to marketing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Regardless of how many larger enemy ships they sunk or otherwise put out of commission. How many missions did those large enemy ships failed on, or did not attempt, because of interference or because of the threat from torpedo boats? It is the same as submarines and aircraft carriers. Very few aircraft carriers have been sunk by submarines. But the aircraft carrier groups had to absorb larger amounts of escort ships for their groups, then missing elsewhere, and they did not go places where they would have gone if it wasn't for the threat from submarines. Considering how cheap the torpedo boats are and how expensive the resources they bind on the enemy side we have to do more work to establish their true value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kverdon Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 It is the same as submarines and aircraft carriers. Very few aircraft carriers have been sunk by submarines. Hmm, I'd have to take issue with that. Lets see there was Ark Royal, Wasp, Shokaku and Taiho that come right to mind... Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 HMS Eagle was also sunk by a submarine during Pedestal (a Malta convoy). Still, the point stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mllaneza Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Hmm, I'd have to take issue with that. Lets see there was Ark Royal, Wasp, Shokaku and Taiho that come right to mind... Kevin The Saratoga was hit twice, and was out of action for about a year total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narses Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 From the release: "More than once in the history of WWII, a handful of those little deadly boats helped decide the course of an entire battle and executed seemingly impossible missions." Just curious when PT boats did this? I very much agree with you. The quote is way overblown ! MTB's were not that important. But I hope this game has the German S-boote. They scored some successes: 101 merchant ships sunk (213,000 tons), 12 DD's sunk, 11 Minesweepers, and 8 LST's. There most spectacular succes was in Apr 44 at Lyme Bay (Slapton Sands) where they attacked a large D-Day landing sinking 2 LST's and damaging 2 and causing over 700 deaths as I recall. If this sim doesn't have S-boote forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Some-Guy Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 It does indeed have playable s-boots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 Coastal forces--an overview http://ptdockyard.tripod.com/id8.html What about these? http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/minehunter/rboat/ These are must haves in the Med http://www.steelnavy.com/WEMFlakLighter.htm Posted for informational, noncommercial reasons only! A little unit history! Peter Tare is phonetic milspeak for PT. http://www.petertare.org/ron15/ron15-9.htm Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Do the Solomon Islands and New Guinea campaigns count? See Service section here. Believe you'll find the Japanese survivor comments of interest, too. Also, was D-Day significant? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_boat Read p. 98 et seq. here. A handful of German torpedo boats nearly unhinges the D-Day landing, arriving in the middle of the land bombardment. PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=d-day+e-boat+attacks&source=bl&ots=ywWX_vFEc0&sig=gNq7pI4K1SuI-D91BkXyBx30308&hl=en&ei=eePgSpqcCYTuswPVo5XODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CB4Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=&f=false Last E-Boat (Actually, S-Boat) to be restored (attacked Op Tiger) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30977019/ More S-Boat goodies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnellboot Here's a quick overview of not just the craft, but the men who sailed them and the conditions under which they fought. http://www.2worldwar2.com/pt-boats.htm Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 So as not to slight the Russians http://www.360cities.net/image/sevastopol-sapun-gora-torpedo-boat From Akella http://www.360cities.net/image/sevastopol-sapun-gora-torpedo-boat Torpedo boats sank no less than three battleships in WW I. Article doesn't say, but the Italians sank the Szent Istvan and the Wien. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_boat Szent Istvan sinking http://croatian-treasure.com/szent.html Footage! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWO-AUI8HDE Sinking of the Wien http://www.historynet.com/naval-weaponry-italys-mas-torpedo-boats.htm/2 The Turks sank HMS Goliath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Goliath_%281898%29 General question re WW 2 PT type ops: Is it important to deny the enemy a) supplies freedom of movement, c) strategic resources, let alone conduct d) raids, e) agent insertions and retrievals, f) retrieve downed pilots and sailors lost overboard or whose ships have been sunk? Sinking principal naval combatants seems to me to be a bonus! Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Oops! Left out a very important set: control of littoral area, economy of force ops, early warning and armed recon. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destraex Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 so in ww2 they sank nothing major - no warships ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Redwolf, Precisely the points made in the Wiki PT article: cheap, scary and numerous! The Slot campaign Japanese reaction is most interesting, and these were masters of night combat. Destraex, The S-boats alone, from the Wiki, are credited as follows: During their operational history in World War II, the S-boote sank 101 merchant ships totalling 214,728 tons.[6] In addition, they sank 12 destroyers, 11 minesweepers, eight landing ships, six enemy MTBs, a torpedo boat, a minelayer, one submarine and a number of small merchant craft. They also damaged two cruisers, five destroyers, three landing ships, a repair ship, a naval tug and numerous merchant vessels. Sea mines laid by the 'S-boote' were responsible for the loss of 37 merchant ships totalling 148,535 tons, a destroyer, two minesweepers and four landing ships.[7] Am finding it rather more difficult to run down the equivalent data for PT boats and British/CW MTBs and MGBs, though I can provide a list of losses for all three named. http://www.naval-history.net/WW2BritishLosses3Coastal.htm Note repeated entries for sunk in surface action. Here's the PT loss list http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/pt/losses.htm Happily, the Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS_%28boat%29 for the Italian M.A.S. boats provides both losses and combat successes. Here' the rundown on the largest known torpedo boat victim of WW II, H.M.S. Manchester http://wapedia.mobi/en/HMS_Manchester_%281937%29 The combatants: torpedo boats down through history http://www.naval-history.net/PhotoZHinds.htm Note what PT-34 was doing the day before she was sunk. Here's the bible on U.S. PT boat ops in WW II, written by a man who won the Medal of Honor serving in one. http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/CloseQuarters/index.html Believe you'll find Appendices B and C of particular interest. Hope this helps! Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastttt Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 it is like saying how many tiger tanks where taken out by just using rifle fire so in ww2 they sank nothing major - no warships ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destraex Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 I disagree.... swarms of torpedo boats with 2-4 torps each.... it only takes 3-4 torps to kill a capital warship. How about - how many battleships were taken out by carrier aircraft alone.... same weaponry different playform... smaller size. In the med especially I think the manchester is a good example of potential for the torpedo boat to pull one out of the bag. Submarines/torpedoe bombers etc do have a distinct advantage as a strike platform. The PT boat is just as exciting for me though. Its like a race car with torpedos strapped to it. And the best part about it is that its often sent off on its own with the small crew... its a great platform for individualist tight knit crews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Destraex, Looks as though you've been delving through the goodies I dug up for you and are beginning to understand what I was trying to convey. Watched any of the videos yet? Couldn't believe how tiny the M.A.S. boats were, yet it was a brace of them that sank H.M.S. Manchester! Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destraex Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 actually I have not had time to read any of it yet sorry. I did read a comic called PTboat or some such when i was a kid. Prolly have it somewhere still. The captain in that went everywhere. From chinese waters to europe in flames. And an australian tv series called patrol boat.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastttt Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I tend to think of this kind of combat as squad level battles the stories are out there they are just not as spoken of as much compared to when you get to fleet level stuff and the battle wagons just have better press coverage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Beastttt, A PT or similar vessel is the smallest fighting command a skipper can have that is truly designed to go into harm's way, as opposed to, say, a seagoing tug. Such a boat is all teeth, with no real staying power and is critically dependent on either a tender or shore base for logistics. And it is on such a boat that a skipper may make an indelible impression in very short order, either good or bad, for there is nowhere to hide and who you are is there for all to see. In naval terms, a PT boat is basically a fighter plane, albeit one with a large crew and heavy firepower, and the tactics of ambush, slashing attacks, high maneuverability and speed management in combat all have fighter combat parallels. If you look at the awards and citations in that book I mentioned earlier in the thread, you'll find that PT skippers and crews got a lot of decorations, and the same was true for the Germans and the British. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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