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BlackVoid

Axis armor points in CMBB

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For clarity I should have said I was thinking of infantry firing. As for tanks surely it is the buttoned ones who have limited viewing?

Their is also problems with squads firing at full whack no matter how insignificant the target. Laser range finding. Superb terrain reading during night and fog. God view ......

Guns ...yeah OK so what.

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d-t - the solution is simple - do not deliberately exploit this bug. When positioning a gun near a crest, move it forward until the LOS line leaving the gun does not kink. That is all that is required. It is not remotely too much to ask of any sporting player.

If you find an opponent unwilling to do this, tell him to take a flying leap and find a new opponent. Also simple. There is no need to bother designers about fixing what players can fix themselves simply by observing a basic principle of sportsmanship - do not deliberately exploit game quirks for in-game advantage.

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JC -

Firstly, as I play very quickly I am not willing to trade off the time spent and given -

Secondly, if I move a gun into a position I cannot know exactly where the enemy will appear so may inadvertently achieve such a position.

So really it seems a solution for a problem that does not really warrant the attention. Bear in mind I think small maps an abortion and tend to play on huge maps so one can achieve angles and alternative routes. I suppose if I played on small maps where single guns could be very powerful I might feel slightly differently - but I doubt it. Mortars, artillery, planes must be used.

And as I said previously with borg spotting and everything else this does seem small beer. AND if one truly cared then to cater for borg the entire game can be played with Ironman rules. In fact on small maps that may be a playable version of CM. : )

PS Why not post your Napoleon thread on Les Grognards? It will get a lot of thought there. Given the polyglot nature of that Forum perhaps you will need greater forebearance though I believe there are also some very serious grogs there.

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Apologies had not read the dates of the posts. Subject matter too interesting.

My point about guns being approached by tanks from areas which would then put the gun in an unacceptably advantageous [to you] position you do not answer. I am at a loss to think what is the answer in that case:

Do you require the ATG to be moved to a position where it can be killed?

Or put on a covered arc to stop it firing?

Never place or move guns where there may be an angle that creates the situation?

As the attacker has chosen that route do you ask him to desist using that route as it is playing on your sportsmanship in not using your gun?

What is the practical answer?

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It simply doesn't happen - if you place the gun forward of the military crest to the side of the field the enemy can be expect to arrive from, it either has LOS and can be hit, or it doesn't have LOS (blocked rearward through the hill etc). There might be infinitessimal lobes off to the flanks where some hill issue might be possible, but it will simply never matter in any actual game.

People who abuse this and argue they don't have to fix it do not abuse it a little. They abuse it a lot. They put guns at the precise point behind the crest that leaves them full field of view while intercepting as much incoming fire as possible. Then they pretend it is just fine because of forty red herrings they bring up about other things. The reality is they want to cheat and think they deserve an in game edge for having learned how.

Needless to say, there is absolutely no reason to put up with them or ever to play them again.

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Yes, but can I place my ATG at a point where the LOS tool does not kink, but it still gets *some protection from being behind the crest ? I.e. something similar to hull down for a vehicle.

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Back to the topic:

Allied attack, 1250 points, the Axis player gets just enough armor points to buy 1 (!) tank. As allies I could buy 3 crack T-34s and 2 crack SU-85s. Axis can also buy 3 Pak40 AT guns. This setup is very though for Axis.

My opponents prefer Axis, I keep kicking their ass ;-)

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It simply doesn't happen - if you place the gun forward of the military crest to the side of the field the enemy can be expect to arrive from, it either has LOS and can be hit, or it doesn't have LOS (blocked rearward through the hill etc). There might be infinitessimal lobes off to the flanks where some hill issue might be possible, but it will simply never matter in any actual game.

Not having experimented with this defect I really cannot argue whether you are correct in stating that it is only infintesimal lobes or not. My gut instinct is that there are not many positions that would meet your criteria on a normal CM map - the subtlties of contour simply do not occur very often. However I would never waste time seeking them out to prove or disprove your contention.

You still avoid the very pertinent point that if I advance my guns across a hillside I might accidentally arrive in such a situation - what is the cure.

Judging from your remarks you must play some quite gamey characters - or ones you are distrustful of. I only play for fun and in the probably 300+ games I have played I have only had a couple of games where someone has cheated deliberately. That people may have accidentally put their gun in a position where I accidental blunder into it and it is well shielded from I put down to Dame Fortune, and for me, her daughter Miss Fortune.

I will continue to treat my opponents as honest men - and having played 70+ opponents I have probably played many more than most non-ladder CM players.

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dt - yeah sure you and all CM players are princes among men and of the highest virtue, but if instead you put your guns behind crests to intercept shells while firing through them you'd still become pond scum. Why is the point resisted? Because men do it, and do it deliberately for game edge. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

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Back to the topic:

Allied attack, 1250 points, the Axis player gets just enough armor points to buy 1 (!) tank. As allies I could buy 3 crack T-34s and 2 crack SU-85s. Axis can also buy 3 Pak40 AT guns. This setup is very though for Axis.

My opponents prefer Axis, I keep kicking their ass ;-)

This is just one of the many combat-pessimizing and fun-diminishing little things that sneaked into CMBB after CMBO, along with lots of good stuff, of course.

At the time we didn't think much of it, we couldn't expect a whole game was getting built along those lines. This patronizing of players is what CMBO didn't have, got introduced in CMBB and got to full swing in CMSF. Luckily some of it got reverted since the CMSF release. I can't believe it's 2 years and a couple cookies. Man...

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The other way to solve the allegedly unhittable gun position just behind a crest line.... use mortars!

Regards

KR

They we go. For me it is a non issue and always has been. The gun can be killed with the right counter for it.

Reading books, especially Panzer Aces, Panzer Aces II, Michael Wittman vol.1 and vol. 2, Panzer Tactics etc. Gun emplacements, cleverly hidden, were tough to crack without the right counter for it. So i do not consider it a bug (game play wise) if both players agree this is fine.

There are other issues with this game that should get the "I am taking my ball and going home" response. This bug not so much imo.

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I am now looking forward to the banning of all US 37mm armed US armour on the basis of JC's statement they are ludicrously overpowered. What fun we can have sorting the game out. Borg spotting minimised by playing at level one only. Yippee. We can solve all these important bugs if we really try.

Then lets get started on the Russian 76.2mm ....

Mind you I know some plonkers who play it for fun! Phew weird !

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1. It's a game.

2. Direct HE can kill a gun behind a crest. Even in the most gamey "entrenched behind crest and wall" position. It takes more HE though.

3. Trenches do not have overhead cover vs mortars. So ATGs either lose the advantage of concealment or overhead cover. They are pretty weak in CM anyway.

4. Compare a Pak40 with a Marder or StuG with long 75. Pointwise and combat value.

5. It's still a game.

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JC - the specific point that I wanted answered was how do you account for players moving guns and then finding that an enemy tank has appeared in a position which gives your gun an unfair advantage. Your answer not to play me hardly seems adequate as the point is a general one for all players.

One option is to ban players from moving guns but then the cure is worse than the problem surely.

As for playing you JC that would never be my wish as your fame is such to spread fear amongst many players - even to the extent some avoid the BF forums.

Incidentaly I agree with you about 37mm armed US tanks but I cannot recall you mentioning a fix for that. I use them still as I believe that you have to play with what the game provides. My only exception is the Italian para SMG troops where there exists reasonable alternatives.

Do you restrict them in your games?

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I have restrictions to SMG Squads in most my games as they are overmoddled in my opinion ( I prefer using SMG half-squads or at 60% strength as the firepower value works out better ).

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