Naval Balance Issues

[Soul]

Naval Balance Issues

I know I have posted quite a bit recently and most people are asking just who am I LOL with all these changes, but I really want to see this game succeed when launched. But this is another thing I have noticed with the sea units.

I am asking for a radical change so be prepared, but right now Sea balance is broken. How? Easily, the only ships I need to produce are Transports, Destroyers and Battleships.

Transports for you guessed it, transporting units

Destroyers for killing fast transports and taking resources

Battleships for destroying any land naval or air forces.

What about subs, well they are too slow and too vulnerable as it stands. Transports sink subs easily and out run them. Additionally, subs don’t have any good “first strike” or attack modifier. In the old Empire subs did 3 points worth of damage and had 2 hit points. I don’t propose that for this game but if they attack they need to do more damage than what they do now.

Cruisers are worthless. They can’t hit anything on land, and destroyers sink them a tad too easily. For my production I rather have a battleship, its only 6-7 more turns.

Destroyers are essential for hunting down transports and taking resources in this game. No other sea unit is as fast as they are. Additionally they kill subs (usually) and can take on cruisers, so why spend the extra production time for a slower ship (cruiser) or a less hit point and slower ship (sub)

Battleships are of course king of the sea and kill anything with ease. With their massive HPs they can retreat and get repaired to fight another day. I see why the AI only builds BBs and DDs

I don’t know about Carriers because I can easily build an airfield on an Island, or launch attacks from cities. Additionally sea units seem to kill bombers easily, so why build a carrier at all? If I lose the carrier, I also lose all of the fighters and bombers on the ship, way too risky when I can just base them from a city or airbase(s).

Long winded of course but this is what I propose as a start. I don’t know how this will work but this is the “vision”. Make the units dedicated towards a specific threat and 25-50% less effective against others.

Transports can remain as they are.

Destroyers become decided anti sub killers and get sonar (researched after radar) they still remain effective against transports as well but less so against air.

Cruisers become the air killer, getting radar and a range radius like a flak gun. They are still vulnerable to subs and can take on destroyers with a 60%-70% win ratio

Battleships destroy everything above the sea and are bombardment ships for

landing forces. They are somewhat effective against air but -25% effective against subs. They can take on destroyers with a 75-80 win ratio and cruisers with a 65-70 win ratio. (Reason being is a DD and CA have the same production time as a BB, as it stands now I can send a DD and a CA and both will be destroyed by the BB with little damage) What will save the BB is the hit points, so we are not reducing the strength of the BB.

Subs become effective against battleships and get a first strike chance if not

discovered. If this can’t be implemented than a higher attack ratio for BB, and CV. This is the part which will require the most balance because we don’t want to make subs too powerful.

Carriers, like I said before I have not played with because of ranges, but I suspect with only 50% research on, carriers will become necessary, so in that case Carriers need to be an air killer but even less effective against surface units.

[Soul]

Naval Balance Issues (Hot fix)

If this is too much for implementation than I suggest just a few changes to bring the balance in line

Subs- first strike ability and more damage to units bigger than a cruiser, slight speed buff (less than cruiser)

Destroyer- better against subs

Cruiser- increased speed but still slower than a destroyer, sight buff to damage to destroyer and either take off land bombardment or make it a little stronger, I hate having to GIVE FIELD ORDERS to cruisers so they will engage other sea units instead of firing on cities and units endlessly without any damage.

Battleship- less effective against subs,

Carrier- No idea yet, have not used them as much as I would have liked to get a feel for balance

[rich12545]

Yeah, subs should be VERY effective against transports and battleships. Those two should not be able to see submerged subs.

Destroyers should be very effective against subs.

Cruisers are middle of the road, somewhat effective against subs, good against destroyers, very good against transports, ok against battleships.

I believe those tweaks could be made in the ruleset.

[hoolaman]

Cruisers historically had a speed advantage compared to battleships, they could hit as hard but didn't have the armour.

I believe cruisers are the same speed as battleships in EoS and inferior in every other way at comparable levels.

I think all naval units should be faster from a gameplay POV. There doesn't seem to me to be a balance issue if they all cross the map faster.

Crusiers though should easily outrun battleships at all levels. Subs should have a small chance to hit but score big when they do.

Carriers could be more useful on a more open sea map, haven't bothered using them yet.

[N3rull]

Cruisers historically had a speed advantage compared to battleships, they could hit as hard but didn't have the armour.

I believe cruisers are the same speed as battleships in EoS and inferior in every other way at comparable levels.

I think all naval units should be faster from a gameplay POV. There doesn't seem to me to be a balance issue if they all cross the map faster.

Crusiers though should easily outrun battleships at all levels. Subs should have a small chance to hit but score big when they do.

Carriers could be more useful on a more open sea map, haven't bothered using them yet.

I think ships move about as fast as they should - maybe battleships could be slightly slower (~5 points down) while cruisers could be slightly closer to destroyers in speed (~5 points up).

Intercepting ships with attack aircraft would be undoable if they were significantly faster - it is already hard to queue enough points for your tac bomber so it a] finds and attacks the target ship as it moves through the FOW and b] manages to get back to base without running out of fuel.

Uninterceptable transports and destroyers would really be a thorn in the ass ;s.

Carriers are funny blokes. They're utterly useless on the Demomap since it is much easier, safer and cheaper to drop paratroopers on an island somewhere near your enemy and tell them to build an airfield. If the map is really a big continent-type though, they could become a necessity.

Of course, only if aircraft are made at least a little tougher and battleships are not the standard counter to EVERYTHING.

[Smaragdadler]

Ideas:

-difference between brown and blue water would be nice

- till late WW2 only 'submersibles,' not real subs (means: dive only for one ore two rounds, then have to re-surface)

-diesel subs that have to snorkel but are undetectable when bottomed in brown water (near coastline) + AIP as technology

- nuclear hunters and boomers

- ASW ships with helis (can be in one place fore some rounds) and ASW-Aircraft (scans the route it is flying)

some gamey bug:

If you play vs AI opponents you can 'collect' their peace offerings over time. In later game you can use this to sneak attack resources and then just accept some old peace offer next.

[Brit]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll be looking into these issues.

[Caseck]

So, if I have a couple units gang up on a BB, do they get simultaneous attacks in vs. the BB's one defense?

Same with Air units?

The real power of air units, and sub units to a lesser degree should be to gang up and divide defenses while delivering firepower to target. Hell, ground combat is the same way.

But I only realistically see BB being able to sink a sub very limited amount of time--unlike in the game where it seems to be a default Sub-lost. Maybe the Sub can't sink or damage or keep up with the BB, but it shouldn't LOSE to the BB all the time. There should be a "DRAW" option instead of the LOSE result the Sub always seems to get.

Perhaps the mechanics of the game aren't screwy with Aircraft (Except for TT that should really lose unescorted against Aircraft/DD/SS/SSN 90+% of the time.) but we aren't using correct tactics? (Should always have group attacks?)

Planes definitely need a "Driven Away/Failed Attack" option, instead of the lose card they always seem to draw too!