Russian Tank Tactics Explored

[Der Alte Fritz]

Reading about Russian tanks attacking, I do not think that 'Hunt' is the best move for them. The accounts talking of rushing forwards until reaching a bit of flat ground, stopping, firing and then moving onwards. Perhaps the best way to do this is to do 'Shoot and Scoot' only in a straight line forwards rather than the traditional forwards and reverse.

What do people think?

[Heinrich505]

Der Alte Fritz,

You got me to wondering on this point. I have found that shoot and scoot didn't work well with the Russian tankers, as I tried this extensively on one of Warmonger's scenarios covering the tank charges during Kursk. Seemed they either ignored the order, or took so long to do so, that the ones who did got gutted by the German armor.

I have never tried the shoot and scoot by ordering the tank further ahead, only having them retreat. That might work though. Trying to replicate some of the Soviet tank charges I've read about on the eastern front would be interesting. There was a lot of fast movement, shooting on the move, and generally trying to overwhelm the German line with a wall of tanks spitting fire and racing ahead. It was certainly intimidating, but the logic of "they can't shoot us all before we get them" broke down quite often.

Heinrich505

[dieseltaylor]

I am not sure that the CM game engine can be relied upon to reproduce historical tactics.

Firstly you would have to believe that the points system allows you to buy sufficient Russian tanks to take losses in overrun attacks. Now this might be true in rarity off - or possibly not. Also the fighting algorithm may not account very well for all the variables - particularly movement. On the plus side the shoot and scoot may actually be more effective than a straight fast order in that spotting may well be better in the brief stoppage period.

Its nice to remind people that shoot and scoot has two uses : )

[Der Alte Fritz]

Had an experiment this evening.

T34-85 with Regular against three PzIVJ (with no ammo)

Starts at 1600m with a shoot move of 150m followed by a scoot move of 150m.

0:00 start

0:11 moves forward 150m and stops

0:40 fires at 1140m from halt moves off again reloading on move

0:56 fires on move at 1125m

end of move one: has 115m left to travel so has moved 185m. Has 90m left of (fast) scoot move, so put in a 5m shoot move after that followed by an 80m scoot move which should leave a few seconds at the end for another fire from halt.

1:00 moving at fast

1:17 halts and fires as planned

1:23 moves on again reloading

1:25 fire on move and reloads on move

1:44 fires on move again

1:50 stops and fire just at end of move.

So a good result really was getting about a 1% hit chance while firing on the move and a 40% chance while halted. I reckon the optimum move is 100 shoot and 100m scoot which would give you a shot half way along and you would still be moving at the end. The second move would need a short shoot move of say 50m and a longer scoot of 150m. This pattern would keep your tank moving with no waits to process new orders and a firing position about every 150m.

Will try with earlier T34s and on different ground conditions.

[Heinrich505]

Very nice test. Looking forward to your additional tests as well. Seems that the tank was moving consistently forward while throwing rounds at the enemy.

Would you alternate your turns, as 100m Scoot - 100m Shoot (first turn), then 50m shoot - 150m scoot (second turn), then back to 100m scoot - 100m shoot (third turn) and so on?

Heinrich505

[dieseltaylor]

Very interesting DAF

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi H505

Yes I would. The idea is to keep it simple so that I can apply this tactic to a whole company of tanks advancing in line. Really you need to keep the tanks moving by the end of their move so that you do not pay the command penalty and you then get 1 stationary fire position every move and 1-2 moving fires as well. The stationary one is the most important part of this exercise as your chances of a hit are so much greater. Plus you cover a lot more terrain than if you were "hunting forward". I will try to post a comparative picture.

Of course you must remember that according to the manual tanks should be supported by a gun line. I must find out whether your tankodesanty are better off riding or running alongside.

None the less I reckon it will require a player to have balls of steel to try this tactic out in a game or to have a historical scenario with a big points imbalance.

cheers

[Der Alte Fritz]

Test One

I tested out T34-76 vs PzIIIJ (no ammo) starting at 1200m over steppe and advancing firing using Hunt, Fast and Hunt in combination, Shoot and Scoot and Shoot and Scoot over brush.

Great results, the Shoot and Scoot fired as much from the halt as the Hunt tanks plus fired some from the move and covered 840m (690m) to the enemy compared to only 209m using Hunt. The decrease in range meant that the SS tanks killed an additional enemy tank during the four moves.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Test Two

Same again only using all 6 Tanks with Shoot and Scoot(SAS) but this time the Germans had ammunition.

Killed all 4 PzIIIJ in 5 moves closing by 675m and suffering no losses.

Repeated using Hunt command:

Closed by 200m, killed 3 PzIIIJ in 5 moves and suffered no losses.

Repeated again in Oct 42 (with higher Soviet command delay)

same result as above if you kept the Soviet tanks moving by the end of their move and hence avoiding the command delay.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Test Three

6 T34 as before but against a lone Tiger.

The fast moving tanks were a real problem for the Tiger as it took 5 moves for it to finish them off. The nearest T34 had travelled 700m and was within 300m of the Tiger when he died. No tank 'cower' or other problems. The Soviets just kept charging forward and immobilised the Tiger. So a good result given the almost impenetratability of the Tiger.

So this seems to be quite a good tactics for groups of Soviet tanks, they keep together well, cover a lot of ground and yet fire at a decent rate which can make all the difference when you are trying to get to optimum range.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll207/DerAlteFritz1759/TankAttack.jpg

[Heinrich505]

DAF,

Very interesting indeed. I love your tests. There was quite a difference in the hunt/fast versus the scoot/shoot for ground covered, and even to survivability. I may have to try this out on some of Warmonger's Kursk battles to see what effect it might have. I have always wanted to see if the vaunted "tank charges" I've read so much about on the eastern front were something that could be replicated. We have the option for human waves early on in the game, but trying to get all your tanks to just charge ahead was a real hit-or-miss prospect.

Heinrich505

[Der Alte Fritz]

The real difference, which I monitored by observation and by noting the outcome is: Does the tank fire from the halt enough. Hit rates while firing on the move are 1-3%, at halt at 600m nearer 35% so this is crucial. Shoot and Scoot seems to encourage the tanks to stop and fire 3 times during a move so you fire as much as a tank using any other command. So you get the best of both worlds, aimed fire and a decreasing range. The downside is that if you creep out of a hole to fire, then you can creep back into it. Driving forward is pretty much a full commitment to I am going to die or you are. Because of this you need to support such a charge, as the Russians did, by covering it with AT guns and mortars.

The other thing that might work is to charge from dead ground to dead ground. Funnily enough this is due to come up in a scenario that I am writing!

[dieseltaylor]

Excellent stuff DAF. It is amazing that after all these years there is still stuff to be learned.

Such as in CMAK a mortar platoon requires the HQ mortar to be alive for the other two to do indirect fire orders. And they can only take the orders from the mortar HQ. : )

But then how often are mortar platoons bought or in a scenario..

[Heinrich505]

Der Alte Fritz,

I just had occasion to play Warmonger's 2nd of three Kursk scenarios, CSDT-P2-Andre' evka. I'd played the first one some time back, and that had a wild Russian tank charge across the steppes. This one looked a little different, as it had woods and villages along the Psel, but there was a wide expanse of steppe to my left flank. The map was quite historical in its rendering. It appeared I would be slogging my way up the road and dodging from building to building with copious amounts of armor and infantry. I did get bogged down, as the AI was tenacious. The SS Totenkopt men were fighting viciously.

I received several waves of T-34s towards the middle of the battle. One I rushed up the steppe and tried a flanking move, which suffered quite a bit, in the order of 50%. I did manage some flanking action though.

Now comes the interesting part. I realized that I was running out of time, and had been lying back with a large tank formation, around 12 to 15. I had managed to thin out the enemy StuGIII a bit, but they were still deadly. Realizing I had to do something desperate and quite historically Soviet, I charged the whole lot of them. I also added in some from the wooded areas too, which made for a veritable wall of armor. I decided to use the shoot-and-scoot maneuver we'd been discussing in this thread.

Now I wasn't able to perform this as exactly as you'd suggested, but I think I was fairly close to keeping the distances somewhat accurate. I was able to eat up a good 3/4s of the map in about 5 or 6 turns, with very few losses to enemy armor. The losses mainly came from the Luftwaffe, who decided to finally make an appearance and couldn't resist a giant armor charge of T-34 tanks. I ran up on the last two Stug's so quickly that essentially I overwhelmed them. The one panicked and tried to turn to flee, and was caught in the flank with the hail of shells launched at it.

It was quite a gamble, but one that paid off somewhat. I was able to make the 2nd flag at Andre' evka, and did it with a fairly successful armor charge across an open steppe area with essentially no covering support. The tank charge was quite something to watch, and had a very historical feel to it. While this is just one small test, I think you are on to something with this tactic for trying to replicate in some semi-historical way a Soviet tank charge. Very interesting indeed.

Heinrich505

[Der Alte Fritz]

Great stuff, I am glad that someone has managed to use it successfully in a real life situation, all mine have been on the test ground. I might have a look at this scenario and see if I can duplicate your experience.

[Der Alte Fritz]

I was interested in this account so I did a byte battle as another test.

Reduced company of German infantry holding a wood plus 3 StuG Gs (80mm variety so impermiable from the front) 800 points versus T34 battalion of 10 tanks, plus two platoons of tank riders (SMG variety) plus 6 DPs and a couple of sharpshooters and then four 45mm AT guns in a wood covering the advance. Advantage x1.5 or 1200 points. Open ground in between the woods so deadly to your average T34 force.

What fun! The long line of T34s covered the ground 900m really quickly and got within 200m before the StuGs stopped the front company with one front T34 driving right up to the StuG position before dying. But the flanker companies were now right behind the StuG position, nailed one from the side and the other one got shot up from the rear.

The final one had a dilema, turn and face the T34s or get shot at by the 45mm guns who now had him in their sights. Turn he did and the AT guns nailed him. I had not reckoned on that and it adds another little problem for the German player once the T34s break through his line or even start to flank him.

Final body count 5 T34 and one damaged ( the infantry attacked him with shaped charges!) which is not at all bad. Attack was easy to manage as well. Click on tank, use LOS to find 100m, press 'Q' place your first waypoint at the LOS spot and then more than double it up.

The counter to this is against most gamers instincts - ie spread your StuGs out rather than having them in a tight little bunch.

[Heinrich505]

DAF,

Really nice test, and one related to your earlier observations that the Soviet tank charge would have support. Having the 45mm AT guns was perfect, as they would pin the Germans. The plan would obviously be getting so close as to have a chance to stop and hit, or run past, in which case, just as in your test, the German tanks/assault guns would have to turn to fire on the flankers and get punched by the AT guns, or stay facing front and take flank shots from the side. Terrible dilemma, but a very real one.

In the scenario I was playing, the last remaining StuG, when faced with a wall of Soviet armor charging towards it, decided to turn to run for cover, and was then plastered in the side they exposed. The smarter choice would have been to hit reverse and try to back into some cover. Still, the commander might have thought he could drive faster forward to cover.

I liked your new test. It has a rather real life feel to it. Nice.

Heinrich505

[Der Alte Fritz]

We have been discussing an incident during the Battle of Kursk/Prolovska on the 12th July where the 32nd TB charges past the October State Farm over hill 252 through Peipers SPW battalion and Ribbentrops PzIVs on the other side but runs up against an AT ditch with a bridge over it. With Ribbentrops surviving tanks shooting them from behind and the other tanks of the battalion shooting them from in front while the 32nd tries to cross the bridge, all the T34s are killed.

Blowtorch scenarios did one about this incident called Born again at Prokovska so this might be a good test bed of our 'charge and cannonade' technique.

[Heinrich505]

Der Alte Fritz,

I'm on it. I've played through 8 turns of a 50+ turn scenario so far. Won't have much more time tonight, as I've got...ugh...work tomorrow. It may be a busy week, so I'll try to get through more of it as the week goes on and report.

So far, I have literally dashed the entire wall of Soviet armor directly at the first static line of defense on the left and center flank. Everyone was using shoot-and-scoot. They overwhelmed the German defenses, causing many defenders to break and run. The wall of tanks was about 36 total. Losses so far were 6 tanks blown up, all right in front of a PAK front. Six out of 36 is 1 out of 6 or, what, 16.6% losses? Not bad. As an aside, after the rush, one was immobilized by infantry attack, and one wiped out by a flamethrower (geez, that was ugly). The flame boys were not allowed to surrender, as about 30 tanks opened fire on them. Also, many of the tanks didn't have their infantry stripped off either, and the tank riders were able to jump off and assault the surviving infantry that decided to hold fast.

On the right flank, all 12 T-34s were blasted, as historically, they rushed through a wheatfield in a front and flank crossfire. They were also using shoot-and-scoot, but it didn't do them any good.

Well, that is it for now. I am massing for a rush over another rise in the steppe, and haven't gotten to the anti-tank ditch yet. Another wall of armor just arrived and these guys are slated for exit. It was terrifying to see the armor racing forward in a giant charge. No wonder the battle was described the way it was.

Oh yes, the only support was rocket batteries firing on turn one, expending their whole fire on that turn. I used the 76 arty spotter for smoke, and have smoked two hilltops one left and one right. The smoke is over now, so the tanks will rush over the rise, through smoke, and attempt to overrun a Tiger, Panther, and Mark IV.

It doesn't look good for the home team though. There are a lot of German tanks massing on the other side of the anti tank ditch.

Heinrich505

[Heinrich505]

Der Alte Fritz,

I massed my tank reinforcements behind a high hill area, edging them up against the ridge. Intel on what was on the other side was a bit sketchy, so I pushed infantry along the left flank, to see better. Every time I snuck infantry up on the ridge, a cast of thousands immediately spotted them and broke them. I also played cat and mouse with a platoon of Mark IV tanks, and they tried to ease over the top, getting blasted by many T-34 gun tubes.

However, the moment of truth was approaching. I didn't want to wait too long to make the rush for the bridge, so at about turn 28 of 50+, I started a rush on the right flank to perhaps draw some fire, and waited to start the rush on the left flank a turn later. Then a turn after that I started a rush across the center, hoping to catch some of the AI in flank profile as they turned to fire at the left and right rushes. Each of the charges had from 12 to 18 tanks in them. All were using the shoot and scoot.

The right charge lasted maybe two turns before all but three were burning or knocked out. The left charge lasted maybe three turns, and I did get 3 T-34 tanks onto the bridge and two T-70s as well. All the others took flank shots and died quickly. The center charge did catch several AFVs in the flank, but they were quickly destroyed as well.

The few who did get to the bridge tried to forge their way out of the gully towards the exit area, and were promptly fired on - quite historically, I might add - by surviving tanks from their rear or flanks, resulting in annihilation. The Russian commander was seen weeping uncontrollably at the loss of his entire tank unit as he was gently led behind a small wooded area from his HQ by soldiers of the NKVD. One was readying a Makarov pistol, for the coup de grace.

There was way too much enemy overwatch for this tactic to work here. I'm wondering if I had just rushed them on fast towards cover, but then again, the flanking shots would still have gotten them.

The tactic worked great against the static line of AT guns, and overwhelmed them quickly with minimal loss. There wasn't any overwatch to protect the enemy line. In the other scenario that I tried this tactic, the charge was protected on the flanks by terrain, so the only shots were coming from a limited number of enemy tanks directly in front of them. I think that is why it worked for that situation too.

In this case, there were many enemy tanks across the AT ditch, as well as many in position to cover the flanks of such a charge. Another factor might well have been the large number of halftracks that drew the tanks fire, instead of them massing their fire against enemy tanks. While they were punching holes in the halftracks, the tanks at a distance were punching holes in them. If I had tried to ease the center tanks up onto the ridge and provide overwatch for the right and left flank charges, I might have saved some of the ones charging, for the loss of the ones on the ridge.

It is all good fun though. I am not giving up on this tactic. It does have a place depending on the other factors of the battle. Also, it is a real kick seeing that wall of tanks racing across the battlefield.

Heinrich505

[Der Alte Fritz]

A great result I think given the scenario. I know that it is virtually unwinnable but fun none the less.

I think that the tactic has potential in the right situation but for the more historically minded of us, it is simply great to be able to get the game to allow us to use a tactic that the Russians used a lot and actually works in the right circumstances.

You are going to have to use it in my next scenario Melikhovo 5pm so watch this space.

[Heinrich505]

Der Alte Fritz,

I noticed Melikhovo 2 PM on The Proving Grounds, but didn't see your 5 PM version. I'll watch for it.

Heinrich505

[Der Alte Fritz]

Your wish is my command

http://www.the-proving-grounds.com/scenario_details_link.html?sku=1615

[JoMac]

Has anyone tried used Firing Arcs for the Russian Armor

When at full charge give them about a 90 degree armor arc ( 45 degrees to either side, or just the full 180 degree since that is easier to do ) and 250 meters max range if at full charge or planning on using Shoot and Scoot orders that turn -OR- 500 meters max range when using Hunt orders that turn.

This will keep the Russian Armor shooting at targets within their approach path up to medium range instead of flank or Inf distractions.

[Heinrich505]

JoMc67,

I have not tried the covered arc tactic while racing my armor forward. I might have to look into that.

Why the 250 meters when on fast move?

Heinrich505