"Mission for Mussolini" on MilChan's a must see for grogs

[Wicky]

SO

Funnily enough there were a few Arado 234s which the allies were keen to get their dabblers on - though not quite 40 uber atomic bombers as is claimed

http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/1945/Arado.html

[Stalins Organ]

Absolutely - the presence of AR234's in Norway is not in any doubt & you can find reports of the US looking to get hold of some, etc.

but as you say, not Heinkels, not atomic, and not 7000 mile range.....

[Wilhammer]

Why would they even use conventional (jet or prop) fixed wing airplanes? - Kettler says they they had a fleet of UFOs - and he seems to say they flew all the way to Antarctica at the end of the war.

[Wilhammer]

FauxNews is now feeding the Nazi Mythos -

Nazi Stealth Jet Could Have Won War for Hitler

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529548,00.html?test=faces

[Stalins Organ]

Hey they're right tho - if they'd had this in numbers in 1940 () they might well have won the war.:eek::cool:

[JonS]

ust so.

Similarly, if France had had several regiments of LeClercs in 1940, the Germans probably wouldn't have made it across the Meuse. Or if the RN had had a couple of Churchill class subs (or even Upholders, at a pinch) the Battle of the Atlantic probably would have been a bit easier. Too, B-52s for the USAAF probably would have cutback on aircrew losses on unescorted daylight riads over Germany.

[Stalins Organ]

Obviously all these were lacking due to the conspiracy of the military-industrial complex to maintain profits - more money to be made from thousands of Shermans than a hundred MBT's - I mean they had no trouble making them when the Shermans reached their inbuilt obsolescence!

Bloody capitalist comspiracies....

[John Kettler]

Have been gone a long time, but I did want to return to this thread and post some things I discovered. From Henshall's VENGEANCE, page 33, the Korsett V2 mod payload (couldn't quickly locate an estimate for the external structure weight) is some 6400 lbs. This may seem like a lot, but consider that Little Boy comes in at 8900 lbs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boy and Fat Man at a whopping 10,200 lbs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Man By contrast, the Aichi M6A Seiran sub launched floatplanes apparently planned for a dirty bomb attack on Ulithi Atoll (scene of the famous Murderers' Row mass carrier photo) had weapon loads of only 1764 lbs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aichi_M6A I got to see the sole surviving example in May when visiting friends in the Washington, D.C. area.

The form factor for even the Fat Man is 10' L x 5' W, and I have so far been unable to locate bomb bay dimensions for the JU-287. Green's WARPLANES OF THE THIRD REICH, p. 496, lists a maximum internal 8800 lb. bomb load, which is well within tolerances for a Little Boy type weapon, depending on bomb bay design, layout, and shackle limits, and would certainly accommodate a much lighter dirty bomb design. The same source, page 520 lists the Ju-390A-1 as having 4 x 3968 lb. external hardpoints, which, with reconfiguration, would let it carry even a Fat Man type weapon. I would be most interested in seeing what Georg dug up in researching the all but unheard of Luftwaffe nuclear delivery aircraft. As for the Arado 234 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arado_Ar_234 which I also got to see at the Udvar-Hazy branch of the Smithsonian, the 3300 lb. category bombload might support a dirty bomb, but certainly isn't enough for a full blown U.S. type nuke. Suspect the Germans, with their mania for engineering, could trim our weight margins on nuclear weapon designs. I note with interest that the Wiki article mentions only nine Ar-234s were captured at Sola, Norway, whereas the news item in ROBS clearly says 40 nuclear capable Heinkels at an almost completed airfield near Oslo. Rather large difference. I've heard that Farrell did a three hour talk on Noory's Coast-to-Coast radio/Internet show, but I have yet to hear it myself. Understand from a friend who did that it was mindblowing.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Tazjet]

On page 66 Albert Speer, Armaments Minister or sumfink, declares at his Nuremburg trial no such weapons exist in an exchange with the American prosecutor. Isn't that what those in the industry call 'pretty convincing evidence'?

Speer quite truthfully denied knowledge of the Ohrdruf explosion at Nuremberg because by 1945 he was totally uninvolved with the Nazi nuclear project.

Albert Speer, in his book *Spandau, The Secret Diaries,* brags that it was he who ordered Werner Heisenberg to stop building an atomic bomb and concentrate on a "uranium motor" for aircraft. Himmler and others appreciated by late 1943 that Speer was blocking the A-bomb and manouvered Speer out of the picture.

Himmler's adjutant Wernher Grothmann made a statement after the war that Lt Gen Dr Hans Kammler had headed a co-ordinating bureau for SS nuclear projects since 1943. From 22 July 1944 following the Wolfz Chancllery Bomb plot on 20 July, Himmler removed Speer from the nuclear project and appointed Kammler in charge.

Emphasis shifted from Heisenberg and von Weisacker who opposed the bomb and wanted to take the long route of building a reactor to obtain plutonium, to Dr Kurt diebner of the Heereswaffenamt who wanted to take the direct route of enriching Uranium for a Uranium A-bomb.

Diebner's laboratory at Stadtilm, near Arnstadt, was only a few kilometres east of the Ohrdruf bomb test site.

It's also worth noting that by October 1944 harteck had established a uranium enrichment plant with between ten and forty Mark III-B ultracentrifuges at kandern.

Gerlach the Plenipotentiary for Nuclear Science wrote to Goering's private secretary gonnert in October 1944 advising Goering that progress enriching uranium for the atomic weapon was well in hand.

[Tazjet]

Also, one of the points Farrell makes is that the Germans pioneered ultra centrifuge separation technology, much more efficient than the U.S. calutrons, and to this day, we find this German technology showing up in the hands of nuclear powers and wannabes.

See "Nuclear" entry here.

http://cns.miis.edu/iraq/caseintr.htm

Dr Wilhelm Groth at Kiel University whilst working with Dr Erich Bagge who built the first Uraniumhexaflouride Isotope centrifuge calculated that the BaMag Meguin built prototype would enrich 2 kilograms of UF6 at a rate of 7% per day.

Anscholtz & Co built the Mark III-B model in the Hellage factory at Freiberg until it's destruction by Allied bombers on 27 November 1944. There were intervening Mark I and Mark II ultracentrifuges built even earlier in 1943.

A contract of 600,000 Reichsmarks was let in April 1944 for the building of Mark III-B models costing between 12,000 to 15,000 RM each. In other words at least 40 Mark III-B machines were funded.

[Stalins Organ]

Not the same as building them.....

At 7% enrichment per day for 2 kg I'd have thought they'd be at the forefront of the technology.....and yet the system was discarded as uneconomic after the war!

And a single "modern" gas centrifuge can only produce about 30 grams of HEU/year which is why hundreds or thousands of them are arranged in cascades.

Hmm.......looks like your history fails the "comparison with reality" check!

[Tazjet]

Not the same as building them.....

At 7% enrichment per day for 2 kg I'd have thought they'd be at the forefront of the technology.....and yet the system was discarded as uneconomic after the war!

And a single "modern" gas centrifuge can only produce about 30 grams of HEU/year which is why hundreds or thousands of them are arranged in cascades.

Hmm.......looks like your history fails the "comparison with reality" check!

Not true at all. South Africa used the German Harteck process to build it's nuclear weapons.

Pakistan used the German Harteck process to build it's nuclear weapons.

Iran is using the German Harteck process to build it's nuclear weapons.

If it's so harmless then i guess we shouldn't be worrying about Iranian nukes then should we?

Actually gaseous diffusion is much slower than centrifuge technology but by the end of the war so much money had been sunk into that method that USA could not afford to embark on new technology.

[dieseltaylor]

Oh dear.

A thread started by the great Kettler that has gone on for more than three pages. ..............

To save yourself anguish FK you can do as I do and increase in your settings the number of items to a page. I am on page one : )

oos page two now.

[mike_the_wino]

Unholy mooses poop! Who dredged this horrid bit back up?

[Tazjet]

Not the same as building them.....

At 7% enrichment per day for 2 kg I'd have thought they'd be at the forefront of the technology.....and yet the system was discarded as uneconomic after the war!

Hmm.......looks like your history fails the "comparison with reality" check!

This is the reality check which matters. The true facts about centrifuge efficiency. US enrichment methods today are considered the most obsolete. Centrifuges provide 54% of the world's Uranium enrichment today whilst gaseous diffusion provides only 33% and almost exclusively in the US, The balance is either Caultron or Laser enrichment.

The specific energy consumption rate for Gaseous Diffusion is 2300-3000 kWh/SWU for, versus 100-300 kWh/SWU for a gas centrifuge. SWU stands for Separative Work Unit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enriched_uranium#Separative_work_unit_.28SWU.29

http://www.wise-uranium.org/nfceuh.html

The number of stages required to produce LEU is about 30 times larger in the diffusion plant than in the centrifuge plant.

When Iraq was still attempting to enrich Uranium from 1982-1989 they attempted several enrichment methods including gaseous diffusion and Caultrons, but preferred the gaseous centrifuge.

Also if there was no nuclear testing at Rugen or Ohrdruf please explain the following?

Hitler’s own claims about testing nuclear weapons:

In August 1944 Hitler Ribbentrop and Keitel met with Romanian Marshal Antonescu. Hitler told Antonescu of Germany’s atomic bomb. He described Germany’s latest work on “new explosives, whose development was already advanced to the experimental stage,” Hitler confided his view that the jump from modern explosives to this one was the biggest since gunpowder. Antonescu later quoted Hitler in his diary saying:

“These weapons, for example, have such colossal force that all human life is destroyed within three, or four kilometres of its point of impact.”

[mike_the_wino]

Explanation? Hearsay. Inadmissible.

[JonS]

Power consumpion is irrelevant - the US succeded with their 'inefficient' method, while the Germans failed with their 'efficient' one.

Also, who (apart from you and Kettler, obviously*) cares what the Pakistanis, the Indians, the South Africans, or the Martians used in the 1980s or today? Technology gets better. Enrichment technology in the 1980s, after umpty thousand bombs and reactors had been built, is incomparably better than enrichment technology in the 1940s, when the total in either category was zero (0).

Jon

* As a guide, you may want to consider what we around here call 'Kettler's Law': If you ever find yourself in agreement with Kettler, you are wrong.

[JonS]

Hmm, new member, 4 posts, all in this piece of thread necromancy.

I smell troll. My bad for responding.

[Stalins Organ]

Or multiple personality disorder.......

[Stalins Organ]

Hitler’s own claims about testing nuclear weapons:

In August 1944 Hitler Ribbentrop and Keitel met with Romanian Marshal Antonescu. Hitler told Antonescu of Germany’s atomic bomb. He described Germany’s latest work on “new explosives, whose development was already advanced to the experimental stage,” Hitler confided his view that the jump from modern explosives to this one was the biggest since gunpowder. Antonescu later quoted Hitler in his diary saying:

“These weapons, for example, have such colossal force that all human life is destroyed within three, or four kilometres of its point of impact.”

Even David Irving says that Hitler's claims to have 5 bombs to Antonescue were fantasy......

Then Hitler suddenly turned to the war. “Germany is in a tough spot, but I’ll get her out of it. The British and Americans have miscalculated badly.... In no time at all I’m going to start using my Victory weapon (Siegwaffe) and then the war will come to a glorious end. Some time ago we solved the problem of nuclear fission, and we have developed it so far that we can exploit the energy for armaments purposes (R¸stungszwecke). They won’t even know what hit them ! It’s the weapon of the future. With it Germany’s future is assured. It was Providence that allowed me to perceive this final path to victory.”

see note 5 - Irvings actual words describing this comment are "The origin of Hitler's optimism is puzzling"

There's nothing new about Hitler, or the Nazi's in general, having a reasonable idea of the destructive potential of atomic weapons. Dunno how that is evidence that they actually had them tho.