"Mission for Mussolini" on MilChan's a must see for grogs

[John Kettler]

Wilhammer,

Are you basing your statement on what's said here, near the very bottom of the piece? If so, I can well understand the tone taken, since it was DER SPIEGEL which got royally burned over THE HITLER DIARIES. Even so, there is some useful stuff here.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,346293,00.html

Link's from here, which has lots of material not in ROBS, with many items which could be checked. Included is a .kmz file, which I think is a geographic image system file.

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=907683&site_id=1#import

This is a veritable flaming datum. Note (see Sources and References) that the Atomic Energy Commission visited the site, took all the technical equipment, and that the reports are classified for 100 years. No secrets being kept at Ohrdruf!

http://greyfalcon.us/Located%20near%20Ohrdruf.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[Stalins Organ]

And yet there is no actual reference to the existance of those classified documents, indeed there are precious few references to anything at all....so how does "Greyfalcon" know of this?

[Sgt Joch]

Wilhammer,

Are you basing your statement on what's said here, near the very bottom of the piece? If so, I can well understand the tone taken, since it was DER SPIEGEL which got royally burned over THE HITLER DIARIES. Even so, there is some useful stuff here.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,346293,00.html

John,

I looked at some of your links, but your "evidence" is not entirely convincing, for example from the DER SPIEGEL article:

The United States needed 125,000 people, including six future Nobel Prize winners, to develop the atomic bombs that exploded over Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. The uranium enrichment facility alone, including its security zone, was the size of the western German city of Frankfurt. Dubbed the Manhattan project, the quest ultimately cost the equivalent of about $30 billion.

In his new book, "Hitler's Bomb," Berlin historian Rainer Karlsch claims Nazi Germany almost achieved similar results with only a handful of physicists and a fraction of the budget. The author writes that German physicists and members of the military conducted three nuclear weapons tests shortly before the end of World War II, one on the German island of Ruegen in the fall of 1944 and two in the eastern German state of Thuringia in March 1945. The tests, writes Karlsch, claimed up to 700 lives.

If these theories were accurate, history would have to be rewritten. Ever since the Allies occupied the Third Reich's laboratories and interrogated Germany's top physicists working with wunderkind physicist Werner Heisenberg and his colleague Carl Friedrich von Weizsäcker, it's been considered certain that Hitler's scientists were a long way from completing a nuclear weapon.

[Sgt Joch]

Further, Luftwaffe war plans from 1943 clearly indicate a full blown atomic strike of at least Hiroshima yield was being evaluated against Manhattan. See page 91 here, then start translating the legends on the map.

http://missilegate.com/rfz/swaz/chapter5.htm#a

I have no doubt that the Luftwaffe may have studied the feasibility of a strike on New York and drawn up plans on how this might be achieved. Militaries are always drawing up plans for various contingencies.

Secondly the JU-390 did exist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_390

It may even, as some claim, have made a reconnaissance flight to New York City in 1944, although the evidence is sketchy.

But that does not necessarily prove anything, I don't think anyone doubts the Nazis were working on their own atomic bomb, the question has always been how close thay came to actually building a working bomb.

[John Kettler]

Stalin's Organist,

There's precious little online that's pertinent, but this is highly suggestive.

"I also perused the ALSOS files in the National Archives, Record Group 165, Records of the War Department, General and Special Staffs, Box Intelligence Division, ALSOS Mission File, 1944-1945. At Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, I looked through sanitized ALSOS files in the History Office of the Logistics Command."

Excerpted from here

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4306/essay.htm

What this tells us is that as of the mid 1980s at least, the primary Alsos files were still classified. The revelations about the true state of the German atomic program came after the Berlin Wall fell in 1989 and after the 30 year rule expired for most of the British WW II records, which is how we now know what the captured German physicists said to each other while held in Britain.

Never heard of the Piaggio ground attack bird, so thanks for that!

Sgt. Joch,

Who does full blown strike planning, reportedly including a Ju-390 flight right to the sighting and photographing of New York, without the weapon in hand or expected shortly? Only a handful of Ju-390s existed, so someone must've been deadly serious to risk one on such a strike feasibility recon flight. If all the weapon amounted to was a dirty bomb, then the strike map would bear entirely different legends, not to mention that the various destruction level radii would've been dramatically smaller.

To me, the strength of the argument for the existence of successful German atomic devices lies not in any one thing, but in the consistent story told by looking at the aggregate of the theory, testing, eyewitness testimony, forensic evidence, still locked up records, facilities, operational planning, scientific personnel, etc. However upsetting and contrary to the standard model, the story tracks, and I say this from the standpoint of not only a former military analyst, but one who held a CNWDI (Critical Nuclear Weapon Design Information) clearance. I particularly invite you to compare the declassified Top Secret interview with Luftwaffe flak rocket Hans Zinsser with known nuclear detonation phenomenology (17 et seq. ) Farrell has thoughtfully included photos of the actual interview transcript.

http://www.missilegate.com/rfz/swaz/chapter1.htm

Compare that to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_nuclear_explosions

When you combine Zinsser's stunning account with what Romersa observed and was told at Rugen, with what Klara Werner saw and a bunch of KZ inmates reported in the post detonation aftermath from Ohrdruf, the only logical conclusion is that we're seeing nuclear detonations being described. The visuals are right, the observed effects are right, the radiation protection measures and effects on the unprotected are right, to include hair falling out in masses, and that's without looking at all the underlying supporting evidence.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wilhammer]

"Who does full blown strike planning, without the [whatever it is ] in hand or expected shortly?"

This is proof of something?

The answer to your question though, is it is done ALL the time. Full Scale planning is done all the time involving things that do not yet exist - great examples are as common as ants.

[Sgt Joch]

JK, even if we assume that your theory is correct, how do you explain the fact that the Soviets took until 1949 to produce a working bomb.

After the war, the Russians scoured germany to find german scientists who had worked on the German atomic program. At least 40 were sent back to the Soviet Union. Yet even with German scientists and all the data on the US bomb sent back by spies, the first workable bomb was not produced until august 1949.

This is detailed in this article on "German Scientists in the Soviet Atomic Project":

http://cns.miis.edu/npr/pdfs/72pavel.pdf

[Wicky]

OMG In the kettlerian world America secretly invaded Candada

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=492

The key witness Zinsser gave his account a month after the bombings in Japan - I'd be more impressed if he gave his account before he had a chance to repeat news reports and pictures he could have easily seen.

Any how Dr (of Theology!! :eek:) Farrell proves to himself the validity of German nukes by saying everything was a secret so they must have been covering up they had nukes. sad

"Note: It does not seem very clear to me why these experiments took place in such crowded areas."

So where are all the other witnesses to the atomic mushroom supposedly detonated in/near populated areas? - add that to the kettlerian conspiracy....

[Wilhammer]

....and those Masters of Optics did not take ANY pictures?...

[John Kettler]

Sgt. Joch,

Fair question. I think the answer is that the U.S. got what is officially uranium oxide but more probably weapon grade uranium from such sources as the surrendered U-234 and various Alsos expeditions in not just the U.S. Zone but what would become the Russian Zone, taking at the very least the cream of what was available and leaving the Russians with essentially pitchblende/raw uranium ore. Likely, we seized even what was already mined, too. ISTR reading that somewhere. Having to conjure up uranium from scratch would alone be enough to cause a huge delay in getting the Russian Bomb built--even with Beria "motivating," and having the plans, material samples and inside people like Fuchs. Pitchblende was mined and shipped from Czechoslovakia once the Russians seized control, but we also know that vast effort went into finding, assessing, mining and refining domestic Russian uranium. One such mine is Zeltye Vody (sp) and is described by GRU defector Viktor Suvorov/Vladimir Rezun in his books.

Wilhammer,

There are overheads of Rugen in "Mission for Mussolini." They weren't up long, but look like post detonation stuff shot after things settled down.

Guys,

Did you happen to catch the repeated statements in NatGeo's "Hitler's Stealth fighter" in which Goering says the German atomic bomb will be ready in 1946, hence the need for the Horten version (Ho 18) of the AmerikaBomber? I think this significantly reinforces my contention that the Manhattan strike map from 1943 was serious attack planning, not some idle armchair investigation.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wicky]

... Goering says the German atomic bomb will be ready in 1946...

"The Ruhr will not be subjected to a single bomb. If an enemy bomber reaches the Ruhr, my name is not Hermann Göring: you can call me Meier!"

Hermann Göring

Nuff said

[flamingknives]

Oh dear.

A thread started by the great Kettler that has gone on for more than three pages. I suppose that it was inevitable that some kind of conspiracy theory would emerge.

Which one is it this time? Nazi flying saucers and nuclear bombs for which there is no evidence.

[Stalins Organ]

So, JK, you think that Goering actually knew something useful by the end of the wear?? What a quaint idea.....

[John Kettler]

Stalin's Organist,

Here's the story of how the Ho XVIII came to be designed. As conservative as NatGeo is, the German atom bomb side of the story must've come from the Horten brothers themselves. Farrell discusses some of the German work on atomic weapon delivery aircraft, but if you read German, there are whole books on the subject. The bibliography underlying this site is massive.

http://www.luft46.com/horten/ho18a.html

Here's a German language book on the planned nuclear attack on New York.

ATOMZIEL NEW YORK, by Georg and Mehner

If you go the Kopp Verlag site and look up the above book, you'll find a bunch of others on German atomic weapons in WW II.

Here's a useful chronology which, inter alia, shows the Russian decision to build the Bomb wasn't even made until 1946 and that Russia did indeed seize formerly German stocks and arrange to receive pitchblende from Czechoslovakia. There's some juicy stuff on the extent of the Japanese nuclear infrastructure, too.

http://www.ask.ne.jp/~hankaku/english/np7y.html

Here's an Axis Forum thread dealing with German atomic bomb delivery aircraft. The discussion of the modified He-177 (includes pics) and Alsos raids on its Cheb, Czechoslovakia facility before the Russians arrived is highly pertinent to what we're discussing.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=75632

Manfred Griehl's LUFTWAFFE OVER AMERICA is a recent (2006) book which looks at various German plans and capabilities to attack America. Griehl seems to accept the notion of two successful German atomic tests at Rugen and Ohrdruf. Nor is this guy a lightweight. He's the author of dozens of books on the Luftwaffe, Luftwaffe aircraft, and related matters. If you don't believe me, search his name on Amazon.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wilhammer]

"Manfred Griehl's LUFTWAFFE OVER AMERICA is a recent (2006) book which looks at various German plans and capabilities to attack America. Griehl seems to accept the notion of two successful German atomic tests at Rugen and Ohrdruf. Nor is this guy a lightweight. He's the author of dozens of books on the Luftwaffe, Luftwaffe aircraft, and related matters. If you don't believe me, search his name on Amazon."

Quantity does not equal quality -

As a Luftwaffe fanboy, all conclusions by such a person should, by a reasonable, thoughtful person, be given careful scrutiny.

Again - noise to fact ratio is low on these kinds of writers.

This quantity thing is the bane of conspiracy and Nazi Technofans the world over.

By the way, the Soviet Nuclear Program 'started' in 1939, but they were in no position to devote the resources to it until they could free up technical and industrial ability for it.

Here is a REAL resource for you - http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Russia/Sovwpnprog.html

Evidence from intelligence sources in the UK had a role to play in the decision of the Soviet State Defense Council (GKO), in September 1942, to approve resolution 2352, which signaled the beginning of the Soviet atom bomb project.

From Google Books;

http://books.google.com/books?id=WB2g_HCUaZUC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=soviet+resolution+2352&source=bl&ots=XANdcUD61c&sig=qThHmlXPz2PPgeAzoTBFrlrhh5Y&hl=en&ei=gQdKStm5FcmWtgfHsbTJBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

"When the Nazi government collapsed in May, 1945, an Allied intelligence mission took into custody nine of the German scientists who played key roles in the German atomic bomb project. Under great secrecy these men were confined in a large country house, Farm Hall, near Cambridge (England), and their conversations were recorded surreptitiously by hidden microphones in every room. The transcripts were kept TOP SECRET for 47 years and were finally released recently. They give fascinating insights into the personalities of the guests and invaluable information on what the Germans really understood about the physics and chemistry of a nuclear reactor and an atomic bomb. The Farm Hall transcripts clearly establish that (a) the Germans on August 6, 1945 did not believe that the Allies had exploded an atomic bomb over Hiroshima that day; ( they never succeeded in constructing a self-sustaining nuclear reactor; © they were confused about the differences between an atomic bomb and a reactor; (d) they did not know how to correctly calculate the critical mass of a bomb; (e) they thought that "plutonium" was probably element 91. The Farm Hall transcripts contradict the self-serving and sensationalist writings about German efforts that have appeared during the past fifty years. "

http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/journal/Issues/1997/Feb/abs204.html

[John Kettler]

Hold the bus! I've just discovered that some of the previously German language only reference books are now in English. Several volumes by German researcher Georg are now available to us Anglophones. This one's totally on point and is part of a set of books on Wunderwaffen, books which draw on once highly classified DDR and other files.

HITLER'S MIRACLE WEAPONS: Secret Nuclear Weapons of the Third Reich and their Carrier Systems volume 1 - Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine [iLLUSTRATED] (Hardcover)

by Friedrich Georg

Wilhammer,

By what criteria did you determine that Griehl is a "Luftwaffe fanboy" as you put it? It's a damaging claim, if true, but where's your evidence? Otherwise, it seems like a cheap dismissive tactic on your part. Further, I suggest you take a look at what's been called "the greatest technology transfer in history" America's systematic theft of German patents, processes and technology. Georg has a book on it, but you can read an overview of the epic ripoff here. It's from HARPER's magazine, October 1946.

http://greyfalcon.us/restored/October1.htm

Nor is such technical exploitation and use mere theory, for an official government chart exist showing the technology migration path from Air Technical Intelligence Center and like entities to other intelligence, military, scientific and industrial users. The chart was shown by an aviation expert who appeared on the Nazi UFOs episode of "UFO Hunters."

As for your link, it doesn't really help your case, seeing as how it clearly states that the actual development work didn't start until Japan surrendered. Before that, it was a physics investigation and an intelligence operation, not a weapon program. By contrast, the first U.S. reactor demonstrated successful fission in December 2, 1942.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project

The Russians didn't achieve that vital milestone until Christmas Day, 1946, and it was done with a stolen design.

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Russia/Russreac.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wilhammer]

"By what criteria did you determine that Griehl is a "Luftwaffe fanboy" as you put it? It's a damaging claim, if true, but where's your evidence? Otherwise, it seems like a cheap dismissive tactic on your part"

I learned that tactic from you.

However, it is obvious he is a fanboy - he writes endlessly on the topic.

And, despite your claim that my research does not help my point, you, sir, are wearing blinders.

[Wicky]

Where is you corroborating evidence of 40 long range (Heinkel 177/Ju390) bombers armed with Atomic bombs based in Norway , or are you now claiming they were Horten flying wings.

I think kettler has read to many Luft 46 magazine,

To say it simple, He is faaaaaaaaar out

Best from Norway

Olve Dybvig

http://www.luftwaffe.no/

Stalin's Organist,

Here's the story of how the Ho XVIII came to be designed. As conservative as NatGeo is, the German atom bomb side of the story must've come from the Horten brothers themselves. Farrell discusses some of the German work on atomic weapon delivery aircraft, but if you read German, there are whole books on the subject. The bibliography underlying this site is massive.

http://www.luft46.com/horten/ho18a.html

British found a huge airfield in Norway almost finished at war's end, complete with 40 long range nuke capable bombers.

[Wilhammer]

BTW, if you mean NatGeo is conservative in the sense it is out to make money, you are correct.

It is no longer the rag of neutrality and natural sciences; it is about making money.

Really, why else would Nat Geo do a program on Nazi Weapons?

Hardly seems fitting.

[Wilhammer]

Too funny - our made up word made it to the urbandictionary....

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Kettlerian

[Michael Emrys]

Again - noise to fact ratio is low on these kinds of writers.

I think you meant to say that the noise to signal ratio is high; i.e., there is a lot of noise and not much fact. Almost anything having to do with the Nazis and especially their technology is a sensational issue, and thus is seized on by all sorts of unscrupulous sensation mongers in search of an easy buck. They make up wild stories—the wilder the better—and wrap them up in pseudo-science to impress the unwary. Like P.T. Barnum once said long ago, they never give a sucker an even break. It all kind of reminds me of The Chariots of the Gods scam that got going about 35 years ago and begat other scams like The Bermuda Triangle. "Experts" arise and cite each other in ever more elaborate fantasies. All very impressive sounding until one actually begins examining the evidence and notices that what actual evidence is available does not mean or imply what is claimed for it.

Michael

[Wilhammer]

Yeah, Emrys, typlexsia got my point all wardbacks.

[Wilhammer]

Almost anything having to do with the Nazis and especially their technology is a sensational issue, and thus is seized on by all sorts of unscrupulous sensation mongers in search of an easy buck.

Michael

Like these guys?

Or this?

[Michael Emrys]

You got it, sweetheart. The Nazi propaganda machine was so good it is still functioning all these years after they lost the damn war. It was the one thing they were really good at. Makes you wonder...

Michael

[Stalins Organ]

Here's an Axis Forum thread dealing with German atomic bomb delivery aircraft. The discussion of the modified He-177 (includes pics) and Alsos raids on its Cheb, Czechoslovakia facility before the Russians arrived is highly pertinent to what we're discussing.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=75632

And if you bother to read it you will see that the conclusion is that he modified 177 was testing the bomb bay size that the Ju-287 would have, and that the Nazi atom bomb was a dirty bomb, if it existed at all.

So:

1/ not designed to carry an atomic bomb

2/ no atomic bomb in the first place

3/ with all due respect to the ppl posting, not a "source" at all!

Oh and the Brits did not find an airfield in Norway full of atomic bombers.