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TOW2 released version first impressions


General_solomon

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it is really great. there are a few things that bug me about the game play though, when panzers see an enemy in the distance they seem to want to run off an rush the enemy even when i click hold, and defend they still do not listen. infantry combat is really cool , but lack of cover means your grunts get chewed up pretty quick.. unless you play smart.

also one thing i dont like is the super sniper ai that seem to shoot my infantry from 1000m away with m1 garands and Mg's that is sort of annoying as well.

and multiplayer seems to not be working yet.

other then that this game is one of the better RTS's ive played in a long time.

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it is really great. there are a few things that bug me about the game play though, when panzers see an enemy in the distance they seem to want to run off an rush the enemy even when i click hold, and defend they still do not listen. infantry combat is really cool , but lack of cover means your grunts get chewed up pretty quick.. unless you play smart.

also one thing i dont like is the super sniper ai that seem to shoot my infantry from 1000m away with m1 garands and Mg's that is sort of annoying as well.

and multiplayer seems to not be working yet.

other then that this game is one of the better RTS's ive played in a long time.

So let me see if I've got this right...the AI sucks, some of the units are unbalanced and the multiplayer is broken, but you still think, other than that, its the best RTS you've played in a long time? I'm not trying to be a smart a$$, I'm just trying to understand the severity of some of the problems.

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it is really great. there are a few things that bug me about the game play though, when panzers see an enemy in the distance they seem to want to run off an rush the enemy even when i click hold, and defend they still do not listen. infantry combat is really cool , but lack of cover means your grunts get chewed up pretty quick.. unless you play smart.

.

just push "hold position" button but before push the "stop" button. ;)

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from a realism standpoint yes it is. it is once of the best historically accurate rts's ive played in awile.

Is it realistic to have MG/rifle-snipers (without a scope) spilling deadly fire above 600-700 meters? Or friendly units who still die from rifle fire although they crouch behind a ridge? I checked out the demo only, but I could imagine that the ridge-thing is still part of the release version.

Also, I am not sure whether a HE shell would really kill a trooper when flying 1-2 meters above his head. A grazing shot with high-velocity rifle ammunition will kill a trooper, no doubt, he'll die from shock. But I wouldn't think so with HE shells which just pass, unless it's extremely close.

Other than that, the game holds relatively solid physics.

It would be interesting if there'd be the possibility to damage a tank's engine, though, reducing the particular tank's speed. With the current game mechanics, it appears that it's either the enemy tank's gun, or the frontthat is being hit - mostly killing driver or gunner, while hits on let's say the side of a "parked" friendly tank usually damage the tracks. Historically, German tank crews used to aim for the "middle" (upper hull) when approaching enemy tanks (i.e. Shermans) from the side, as there was a really high chance to penetrate their vertical side armor.

In TOW there was a chance that a heavily armored tank just lost his front MG (sometimes along with the guy operating the MG) at least, while the main gun remained operational. I haven't seent that in TOW 2, yet. Friendly units end up with a disabled main gun quite often.

So, there could be a bit more variety: Like an engine that would loose oil or fuel, dying down after a while. Tigers with broken/blocked clutches/gears - where the field repair service has to tow the tank with 3 Protze-Halftracks in order to carry it on to the next mission, friendly Fighter planes strafing the shyte out of the enemy infantry (and not just targeting 1 gun crew/trooper). German troops climbing on Allied tanks to put hollow charges on enemy tanks. THAT would be "accurate".

The voice samples could feature some more variety too (or at least less frequent playing), as these repetitive samples take away from the immersion.

Btw, does the release version feature trenches?

With the open terrain, defending infantry units HAD to dig in to get a minimum of protection from tank/arty fire, and attacking infantry units could only advance behind armored units (mostly). It would be a pity if trenches wouldn't be in there.

Also, with German 88's (Flak) being so accurate in the game (which is realistic, but the Allies could compensate these heavy losses by fielding superior numbers in 1943 - the demo mission only offers a pretty low amount of Allied armor, though), I could imagine that the full game rather transforms into a sneak/crouch contest, where friendly infantry has to crawl to the objective - taking out enemy gun crews/emplacements along the way - in order to prepare the battleground for the armor. No? :)

That wouldn't be historically accurate, I'd say. :-)

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I've started two campaign missions which are hugely enjoyable. The main improvement for me is the AI, which much much better than TOW1. I tried out a couple of QB where the AI actually put up a more than decent defence. I just hope that TOW2 gets the audience it deserves, and that it attracts a bigger community. Well done IC.

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First of all, congratulations to 1C for creating this fine game.

All the weak points I hated about TOW1 have been improved. I cannot confirm the problems with infantry being shot even though they are in cover behind a ridge.

It just plays very well.

The main improvements from my point of view:

- excellent infantry AI - of course there is always room for improvement, but it is a real step forward and finally makes infantry useful as an offensive capable asset.

- Air attacks are much more realistic

- Off-map artillery model is very good, you have a certain amount of ammo and can stop fire and re-commence at will

- units don´t wander around without orders.

- addition of smoke rounds

- houses can be occupied and destructed

- very immersive graphics and sound

and most importantly: the missions are interesting, realistic and fun to play

What I would like:

- Infantry use of grenades through the doors or windows before entering building

- Off map artillery capable to lay smoke screens between two (player-) defined points on the map

Overall my favorite game at the moment-

But beware I once liked Steel Panthers too...

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So far I am enjoying it...

Impressions pretty much as for the demo:

Infantry with smoke capability at section level - can somebody let me know if this is realistic or not.

Artillery/AT guns wasting ammo and revealing position by expending rounds at single infantrymen.

Scouting does not seem to hinder enemy spotting - lone infantryman at 500m crawling to side of peak of ridge still spotted and taken out by hyper-accurate rifle fire.

Ability of ordinary infantry to spot for on-board artillery. Surely this should be restricted to FO at company level, or at least by section/platoon officers. Radio is a must for directing arty, or not?

Enemy infantry AI sometimes suicidal with failure to use ground.

Ability of infantry sections to crew AT guns and AFVs. How possible was this in reality? My guess/experience is that it was not - manning AFVs or arty requires trained personnel even to make it work, and setting "Driver" or "Gunner" to 0 is not prohibitive enough for me; ordinary infantry simply would not man a tank, and I don't know any infantrymen, who would be able to fire a field gun with any accuracy whatsoever, if at all.

I'm afraid we have the 'fight to the last man' situation again - twice now I've had to hunt through the village to find the last remaining infantryman. There needs to be some force surrender values set to avoid this unrealistic situation. Battles are usually not won by killing every last enemy combatant.

Plus some new ones:

During the Kasserine Pass campaign (1st mission) as the Brits, I experienced the most accurate off-board artillery barrage ever seen: moving tanks and infantry were hit as if the arty were using direct fire. Made me laugh until I had to re-start, because I lost 2 sections of infantry and an immobilised Valentine.

During the "Tactics" tutorial, I had a half-section of infantry sneak into a building (Action Mode set to "Sneak" and "Scout" command used). The door was on the opposite side if the building; to the right was the main road with a few metres of wooden fence, and to the left was a wall with some breaches allowing ingress. 4 men decided to sneak along the road in the open, past the un-scaleable wooden fence (lol) until they got caught in the open by a lone German with an MG42. Seems that micro-management of waypoints is still important, and infantryman don't act alone, especially not MG42s firing from the hip!

AFV bailing out - you get a lot of stranded AFVs, immobilised and even F-Killed, but still the crews sit in them enjoying the heat, thus enabling them to spot my units.

@General Solomon: You can group infantry together and clear out houses using the "Storm" command. They use grenades, although I haven't seen any yet throwing them through the windows before barging in.

R

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So far I am enjoying it...

Plus some new ones:

During the Kasserine Pass campaign (1st mission) as the Brits, I experienced the most accurate off-board artillery barrage ever seen: moving tanks and infantry were hit as if the arty were using direct fire. Made me laugh until I had to re-start, because I lost 2 sections of infantry and an immobilised Valentine.

In fact it's not off-map, there are leIGs you must destroy to finish the mission.

AFV bailing out - you get a lot of stranded AFVs, immobilised and even F-Killed, but still the crews sit in them enjoying the heat, thus enabling them to spot my units.

They don't bail out if at least one weapon still functions and they don't panic.

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Thanks, Sneaksie, and don't get me wrong - this is a very good game, a vast improvement on ToW and right up there with CM:SF.

SPOILER: Who was spotting for the 75s, since they had no line of sight? I have never seen indirect fire called down with such accuracy against moving vehicles and infantry. I didn't even know the LeIGs were used in an indirect role.

On the bail out issue, how realistic was this? Can't imagine 4 crew members choosing to remain in an M-Killed/F-Killed AFV just because they still have access to one of the MGs. From what I've read about AFV warfare in the desert, the crews were out as soon as they lost either the main gun or mobility, and who'd blame them in that heat?

Any comments on the other points made, please, especially that relating to infantry crewing of AFVs/arty/AT (I know it's a core feature of the ToW series, but I'd like to know if they are historical precedents)?

R

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So far I am enjoying it...

Ability of infantry sections to crew AT guns and AFVs. How possible was this in reality? My guess/experience is that it was not - manning AFVs or arty requires trained personnel even to make it work, and setting "Driver" or "Gunner" to 0 is not prohibitive enough for me; ordinary infantry simply would not man a tank, and I don't know any infantrymen, who would be able to fire a field gun with any accuracy whatsoever, if at all.

That actually happened, during the Ardennes offensive 1944, for example (see official US Army history), there were various events where riflemen manned AT guns in order to fend off German armor. It takes way less knowlegde/training to fire AT guns than artillery guns. You need special training to operate artillery and medium/heavy mortars, as it's really tricky to handle ballistics/range finding without LOS. Operating light mortars that are supposed to hit something within LOS is relatively easy, though, that can be achieved through trial and error.

But untrained personnel won't be able to operate artillery guns in indirect fire mode, as the optical/range finding instruments have to be mastered in order to hit something within let's say a box of 800x800 meters, keeping in mind that some artillery pieces had a max range of up to 40 km.

[AFV bailing out - you get a lot of stranded AFVs, immobilised and even F-Killed, but still the crews sit in them enjoying the heat, thus enabling them to spot my units.
Well, even worse, sometimes the driver would leave the vehicle too, although the "exit"-button had been pressed once only. So the player has to make the driver re-enter the vehicle. Cumbersome. A bug.

SPOILER: Who was spotting for the 75s, since they had no line of sight? I have never seen indirect fire called down with such accuracy against moving vehicles and infantry. I didn't even know the LeIGs were used in an indirect role.

The leIG 18 had a max range of around 3,500 meters, so it was used in direct and indirect roles. Other guns, like the IG 42 (issued 1944), for example, had a range of 4,800 meters and was supposed to serve in a dual-role, as IG and PaK. The 75mm PaK 37 (which could penetrate up to 85mm of armor) was a hybrid in fact, as it had features of a PaK and an IG, with a max range of 5,150 meters, and it served in both roles - as interim solution.

There were heavier IGs, but all of them were pretty capable (direct/indirect) infantry support guns, or even capable AT guns.

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Scouting does not seem to hinder enemy spotting - lone infantryman at 500m crawling to side of peak of ridge still spotted and taken out by hyper-accurate rifle fire.

You mean the soldier got hit behind the ridge? That's what others observed (me too), at least.

Radio is a must for directing arty, or not?

Yes and no. Historically, the Germans often used forward artillery observers equipped with radios (i.e. in Russia), but they used predefined patterns/matrix maps as well: Once a given artillery unit has calibrated all guns (takes a bit), these "unguided" fire missions are halfway accurate. US arty units in Vietnam did pretty good jobs that way, for example. Still, it takes experience/special training to take terrain (angle/elevation of the ground underneath the gun), balllistics (accurate elevation of the gun's barrel to optimize ballistic trajectory) and ammunition (velovity, weight of shell, etc.) into account when aiming at something.

Usually, arty observers or attacking units issued adjustment orders (via radio or field telephone), though. At later stages of the war, on the western front, the Germans often just used the predefined maps, without using OBS units, or they established artillery observation points on heights and hills (sometimes overlooking 20-40 km, depending on weather conditions), or - quite often, aerial recon (when they had fuel :D ). During the Ardennes offensive, the Germans targeted quite some crossroads (especially the ones with traffic jams) behind the front, in order to hamper movement of Allied supplies and reinforcements, but since there were no OBS units, the fire missions turned out to be less successful than the Germans would have wished for.

As far as i know, US units did the same, they sent out small forward OBS detachments, which even sometimes directed fire missions from towns (already/still) occupied by the Germans (Ardennes).

One thing in the game is somewhat disturbing: the spread of arty shells. With the short distances in the mission areas, the box should be somewhat smaller. Plus, untrained soldiers (no gunner skills) should not be able to operate heavy field guns (this should go for friend and foe) in an indirect role.

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Russkly

Where your tanks were when they were hit? Maybe leIGs actually had LOS.

Crews bailing out - in most game situations this will result in almost certain death from small arms fire, so they decide that it's better to stay inside:)

Regarding the infantry manning the guns - they can be fired even at Gunner skill 0, but the results are usually unsatisfactory. Infantry may be prohibited from using the artillery, but this will result in strange situations when infantry will be slaughtered by a tank and no one will attempt to use the nearby functioning gun with dead crew.

Vehicles are much more tricky to use, but this is reflected in the game. For example, enemy vehicles require 50 skill.

GoodGuy

If you click the exit button, all crew bails out. If you want to order only one crewman to bail out, select him first.

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Russkly

Infantry may be prohibited from using the artillery, but this will result in strange situations when infantry will be slaughtered by a tank and no one will attempt to use the nearby functioning gun with dead crew.

I think you misunderstood my suggestion: Untrained soldiers should not be allowed to conduct indirect fire missions, as this required extensive training. Also, long range (ballistic) bombardments with LOS should require a minimum of gunner skills.

Vehicles are much more tricky to use, but this is reflected in the game. For example, enemy vehicles require 50 skill.
That sounds good. But, does that go for soldiers who just want to drive a jeep/halftrack, too? If someone learned how to drive a car/truck (which many soldiers did before they got drafted - so it's not even a special military training), he just has to find the "power switch" in order to get going with a jeep or halftrack, seriously. Tanks and SPGs are a totally different thing, though, a 50 skill as minimum would make sense there.

GoodGuy

If you click the exit button, all crew bails out. If you want to order only one crewman to bail out, select him first.

Well, I think you got this wrong, too. In TOW the first click on the exit button of a vehicle with transport capabilities/passenger seats (trucks, jeeps, halftracks, etc.) used to let all passengers exit. The second click usually let the driver exit. Even better, when the player selected parts of the passengers (selecting several passengers - while holding down shift) and let them exit via the exit button, the next click would still let the remaining passengers exit first, IIRC, while the driver stayed in the vehicle. This was convenient and didn't lead to the player ending up in stressful situations, where he has to collect the drivers of his trucks right in the middle of a fight, for example, as it happens in TOW2 actually.

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Well, I think you got this wrong, too. In TOW the first click on the exit button of a vehicle with transport capabilities/passenger seats (trucks, jeeps, halftracks, etc.) used to let all passengers exit. The second click usually let the driver exit. Even better, when the player selected parts of the passengers (selecting several passengers - while holding down shift) and let them exit via the exit button, the next click would still let the remaining passengers exit first, IIRC, while the driver stayed in the vehicle. This was convenient and didn't lead to the player ending up in stressful situations, where he has to collect the drivers of his trucks right in the middle of a fight, for example, as it happens in TOW2 actually.

In fact, first click orders all passangers to exit and second bails out entire crew. Halftracks and other passanger vehicles usually have only one crewman - driver - so second click let out only him. You can select crewmen and passangers before ordering them to exit just like in ToW1.

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No one actually liked the music in ToW1 so we decided to get rid of it and let the players use their favorite music instead. There are folders music\game and music\menu, you can place your favorite music files there (this is described in manual).

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The battle is calmed down, my tired soldiers sit and wait... Listening lion roaring, hawk cries...

GREAT!!!

Where is the add-ons and new campaigns and battles? Any chance to move TOW2 to another battlegrounds, like eastern and western front? Give us more, more, more!!!!:D

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